2ndRateMind
Member
So far as I can make out, this line of preaching advocates poor people giving money to rich pastors. But I wonder if people here may have a different perspective?
Best wishes to all, 2RM
Best wishes to all, 2RM
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The Prosperity Gospel
- Thread starter 2ndRateMind
- Start date
Leaders can be found in every denomination teaching to give tithes and offerings will get a blessing in return.
My understanding of what the prosperity gospel is it teaches that when one believes life on this earth will become a trip down easy street, things will fall into place, troubles will go away, and we will be blessed with wealth and happiness.
That is not the gospel of Jesus Christ.
My understanding of what the prosperity gospel is it teaches that when one believes life on this earth will become a trip down easy street, things will fall into place, troubles will go away, and we will be blessed with wealth and happiness.
That is not the gospel of Jesus Christ.
2ndRateMind
Member
No, Jesus was not particularly keen on the trappings (sic) of wealth. And Christianity, if it is about anything at all, is about giving for the sake of love, without thought of anything in return. In other words, whatever one gives is not transactional, but sacrificial.
Best wishes, 2RM.
Best wishes, 2RM.
Last edited:
2ndRateMind
Member
As for the rich pastors, fleecing the poor: let Jesus speak for Himself, across the generations:
Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, LORD, LORD, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, LORD, LORD, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Best wishes, 2RM.
Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, LORD, LORD, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, LORD, LORD, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Best wishes, 2RM.
Last edited:
Luminous_Rose
CF Ambassador
I don't believe I've stayed in a congregation that taught the prosperity gospel. There might have been a few I encountered because at one I went to would spend 30 minutes begging for tithes before actually passing the plate around. That was the only service I ever attended.
At another church, we went for about a year or so, but never heard of them teaching like a prosperity gospel, but nearly all the members were rich - it was in a rich area. It was difficult for my husband and I to attend at times because they'd really want us to join them for camping trips (had to work to pay for bills, didn't have PTO, didn't have camping gear with us, etc.) and they'd take like a camping trip literally once every month (generally a 3-7 day trip). We'd get invited to dinner get togethers that could be a lot of fun, but people would rarely ever touch the food we brought. There was only one family we felt closer to and they loved our food because oh wait...they actually tried it! When they would rave about it, a few other people would try it, but usually more than half the dish we brought home. Every year they hosted a free event with a bouncy castle, face painting, free breakfast, games, prizes, etc. for families and then at Easter they'd rent out this park and do a whole Easter egg hunt, spread the gospel of Jesus to the kid's and hand out water and such. They also had their own bus that they shuttled church members over from a grocery store to the event so that way we could leave more parking at the park for guests. But when around Easter, the pastor kept saying, "We're cutting it tight this year...not sure if we'll be able to do our outreach this year..." and stuff like that. he said it like every week and I had a hard time believing that. Lo and behold they were still able to hold the events and support all their trips and groups and such.
I guess when I think "prosperity gospel," what comes to mind is that they are teaching that if you are a true believer in God that you will be wealthy and that if you are poor that you must be in sin. I have even seen blogs on some secular "Christian" blogs that have said poverty is downright evil and it's not because the people are poor, it's because the people in poverty must not believe in God because they are not rich.
Although, in scripture we see a lot mentioned about those that are poor or don't have much money that is in a good light and a lot about rich folks that isn't in the best light.
It's not bad to have a lot of money, as long as it's honest and you don't worship it or love it because in the end you'll have to choose which master you want to serve - money or God. There's nothing wrong with being poor, either - life happens and sometimes it hits some of us hard in the wallet.
At another church, we went for about a year or so, but never heard of them teaching like a prosperity gospel, but nearly all the members were rich - it was in a rich area. It was difficult for my husband and I to attend at times because they'd really want us to join them for camping trips (had to work to pay for bills, didn't have PTO, didn't have camping gear with us, etc.) and they'd take like a camping trip literally once every month (generally a 3-7 day trip). We'd get invited to dinner get togethers that could be a lot of fun, but people would rarely ever touch the food we brought. There was only one family we felt closer to and they loved our food because oh wait...they actually tried it! When they would rave about it, a few other people would try it, but usually more than half the dish we brought home. Every year they hosted a free event with a bouncy castle, face painting, free breakfast, games, prizes, etc. for families and then at Easter they'd rent out this park and do a whole Easter egg hunt, spread the gospel of Jesus to the kid's and hand out water and such. They also had their own bus that they shuttled church members over from a grocery store to the event so that way we could leave more parking at the park for guests. But when around Easter, the pastor kept saying, "We're cutting it tight this year...not sure if we'll be able to do our outreach this year..." and stuff like that. he said it like every week and I had a hard time believing that. Lo and behold they were still able to hold the events and support all their trips and groups and such.
I guess when I think "prosperity gospel," what comes to mind is that they are teaching that if you are a true believer in God that you will be wealthy and that if you are poor that you must be in sin. I have even seen blogs on some secular "Christian" blogs that have said poverty is downright evil and it's not because the people are poor, it's because the people in poverty must not believe in God because they are not rich.
Although, in scripture we see a lot mentioned about those that are poor or don't have much money that is in a good light and a lot about rich folks that isn't in the best light.
It's not bad to have a lot of money, as long as it's honest and you don't worship it or love it because in the end you'll have to choose which master you want to serve - money or God. There's nothing wrong with being poor, either - life happens and sometimes it hits some of us hard in the wallet.
2ndRateMind
Member
I'd love to try your food!
But on the prosperity gospel: the deal is, you give money to your pastor. Then God gives you more money back. The more you give, the more and quicker the payback. As you can see, it does not really appeal to those who are intelligent and rich already, but to people who are desperate, not particularly well educated, and most importantly, poor. This is a travesty of Jesus' message, and should be called out whenever and wherever it is to be found.
Best wishes, 2RM.
But on the prosperity gospel: the deal is, you give money to your pastor. Then God gives you more money back. The more you give, the more and quicker the payback. As you can see, it does not really appeal to those who are intelligent and rich already, but to people who are desperate, not particularly well educated, and most importantly, poor. This is a travesty of Jesus' message, and should be called out whenever and wherever it is to be found.
Best wishes, 2RM.
Doug Brents
Member
That is the way it should be, IMO (and I think God’s as well). The minister, although he makes his living from the tithe, is not above tithing himself.
But in general, I think God has given us two sides of this coin, just as He did with the blessing of Heaven and the threat of Hell.
(God does not have anything against the rich whatsoever. But He does say that riches can be a stumbling block if we let them. But also, poverty can be a stumbling block if it turns one to envy.)
On one side of this coin, we are to give from a generous heart to the work of God, (not to a minister personally). Not from a sense of compulsion or from a desire for gain, but from an outpouring of the love in our heart in response to God’s love.
On the other side of the coin is God’s promise that if we do give the whole tithe, He will bless us so much that we cannot receive it all.
But as for the “Prosperity Gospel”, there is no way that our giving anything, whether from a loving heart or not, will remove all struggles and pain from our life. We have been promised pain, suffering, and difficulty in this life, but we are commanded to face them with faith, love, joy, and hope.
Truthfrees
Member
i know one very poor lady - she is always giving most of what she has away and she keeps getting a lot of food and clothing etc coming to her
that was my first encounter with the prosperity gospel - give and it will be given to you pressed down shaken together and running over will men give into your bosom - for with the measure you give it will be measured back to you
i know rich people that do this too and they just can't out give God - but mostly i know poor people who keep sacrificially giving and supernaturally receiving
iow the prosperity teaching came from God and people can use it rightly or they can use it wrongly - there will always be people that use a good teaching wrongly
but more importantly the prosperity gospel works just as God said for those who use it properly - which is give out of a love for giving and watch how stuff comes rolling in - i know many poor people that live this miraculous prosperity life - they continue to be poor but they are never left lacking anything
that was my first encounter with the prosperity gospel - give and it will be given to you pressed down shaken together and running over will men give into your bosom - for with the measure you give it will be measured back to you
i know rich people that do this too and they just can't out give God - but mostly i know poor people who keep sacrificially giving and supernaturally receiving
iow the prosperity teaching came from God and people can use it rightly or they can use it wrongly - there will always be people that use a good teaching wrongly
but more importantly the prosperity gospel works just as God said for those who use it properly - which is give out of a love for giving and watch how stuff comes rolling in - i know many poor people that live this miraculous prosperity life - they continue to be poor but they are never left lacking anything
Luminous_Rose
CF Ambassador
I see, that's a good in-a-nutshell explanation.
To me the "prosperity gospel" is ridiculous. There was a couple in the church I used to attend that went to an automobile showroom, placed their hands on a brand new car, and claimed it for themselves in the name of Jesus Christ. Needless to say, they never go the car. Also, they probably hadn't read 1 Timothy 6:10, "For the love of money is the root of all evils. Some people in reaching for it have strayed from the faith and stabbed themselves with many pains."
2ndRateMind
Member
It is a ponzi scheme.
When I was an elder in a local church the pastor arranged to receive a $10,000 "donation" from another pastor. Why the quotes? Because the donating pastor could reduce his taxes because of the gift -- on one condition. The following year our pastor decided to give the $10,000 back to the donor's church -- so he could take a tax exemption for the "gift".
Clever! When I questioned this behavior, I was told that "everybody does it". It was one of the main reasons that I left my position at the church, and eventually left altogether.
Clever! When I questioned this behavior, I was told that "everybody does it". It was one of the main reasons that I left my position at the church, and eventually left altogether.
Truthfrees
Member
there is probably a law against that - or maybe not - but in any case i thought charities were exempt from taxes so what is up there? - was your church not a registered charity and why not? - that would have been the best tax break of all
also tax lawyers are up on these things so if the church's tax lawyer said it was ok then i guess it was - anyone who doesn't take advantage of tax laws is mishandling God's money too imo
The church's tax lawyer never said it was ok, because it isn't. The money wasn't donated; it was loaned. It was a deliberate scheme to gain a tax advantage by calling a loan a donation. It was one of the main factors in my resigning my position and having my name removed as a church officer.
2ndRateMind
Member
My view:
The following Bible verses are clear and they must be
incorporated into the conversation about the gospel
and prosperity. If we deliberately choose to ignore these
two passages then it will be clear that we are not willing
to make a serious effort to find the true Biblical balance
on what the Bible teaches about the gospel and prosperity.
"Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed
down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into
your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to
you.” Luke 6:38
Compelling conclusion from Luke 6:38
We live in a Give-Get-Give-Get-Give-Get-Give world.
The more we give, the more we get to give.
To give to help others.
Th give to support His Great Commission worldwide.
Etc
"Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be
food in my house. Test me in this,” says the Lord Almighty,
“and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven
and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room
enough to store it." Malachi 3:10
Malachi 3:10 specifically and boldly teaches that God does not
want His people to be poor.
The notion that God wants His people to be poor is utterly
impossible to reconcile with Luke 6:38 and Malachi 3:10
_________________________________
And there are other concepts to be considered too.
Here is one.
"God wants us to be poor"__The Poverty Gospel Christians
Rebuttal:
The notion that says the Father gave us His Son to die on the
cross for us, but He does NOT want to give us a lot of money is
irrational.
"He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him Him up for us
all ~ how will He not also, along with Him,, graciously give us all
things." Romans 8:32
____________________________
Here is another:
How can a Christian $fund The Gideon's International if he is
at the poverty level? Are Bibles free? Or do they cost $$money?
In my city, just last week The Gideon's International gave out
5000 Bibles on the campus of a large secular university. Assume
each one cost them $4.00. How much $$money is that?
_________________
"Members of The Gideon's International currently average
distribution of over 70 million Bibles annually. On average,
more than two copies of the Bible are distributed per second
through Gideons International.[2] As of April 2015, Gideons
International has distributed over two billion Bibles."
en.wikipedia.org
__________________
How much $$ money is needed to distribute 70 million Bibles
every 12 months?
How can a Christian $fund the Lord Jesus' Great Commission if he
is at the poverty level?
The New Testament is bold and clear on the principle behind the
parable of The Good Samaritan. Get out there and help others
is the message of that parable.
So?
So how can a Christian $fund Samaritan's Purse if he is at the
poverty level?
Samaritan's Purse: Helping In Jesus' Name
Samaritan's Purse out there helping people 24/7/365
and "it ain't $$ cheap either" ~ so how does a Christian
living at the poverty level help $fund Christian's Helping
Others Organizations?
My view:
We don't have to choose between the prosperity gospel
and the poverty gospel..
It takes a lot of $$ money to fund the Lord Jesus' Great Commission
worldwide.
I view $ money as nothing more than a tool to be used to help others
and to $ fund the Lord Jesus's Great Commission. So? So I want all the
$$$$$$ Money i can get my hands on honestly. I want huge enormous
bags of $$$$$$$$$$$$$ money.
There is a principle in Matthew 13:12
Its the principle of The Law Of Use.
The Law Of Use says that if you use what you are given
then you will be given MORE , , , and you will have ABUNDANCE , , ,
but if you do NOT use what you have been given then
you will have taken away from you, that which you have been given.
Best Regards.
JAG
``
The following Bible verses are clear and they must be
incorporated into the conversation about the gospel
and prosperity. If we deliberately choose to ignore these
two passages then it will be clear that we are not willing
to make a serious effort to find the true Biblical balance
on what the Bible teaches about the gospel and prosperity.
"Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed
down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into
your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to
you.” Luke 6:38
Compelling conclusion from Luke 6:38
We live in a Give-Get-Give-Get-Give-Get-Give world.
The more we give, the more we get to give.
To give to help others.
Th give to support His Great Commission worldwide.
Etc
"Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be
food in my house. Test me in this,” says the Lord Almighty,
“and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven
and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room
enough to store it." Malachi 3:10
Malachi 3:10 specifically and boldly teaches that God does not
want His people to be poor.
The notion that God wants His people to be poor is utterly
impossible to reconcile with Luke 6:38 and Malachi 3:10
_________________________________
And there are other concepts to be considered too.
Here is one.
"God wants us to be poor"__The Poverty Gospel Christians
Rebuttal:
The notion that says the Father gave us His Son to die on the
cross for us, but He does NOT want to give us a lot of money is
irrational.
"He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him Him up for us
all ~ how will He not also, along with Him,, graciously give us all
things." Romans 8:32
____________________________
Here is another:
How can a Christian $fund The Gideon's International if he is
at the poverty level? Are Bibles free? Or do they cost $$money?
In my city, just last week The Gideon's International gave out
5000 Bibles on the campus of a large secular university. Assume
each one cost them $4.00. How much $$money is that?
_________________
"Members of The Gideon's International currently average
distribution of over 70 million Bibles annually. On average,
more than two copies of the Bible are distributed per second
through Gideons International.[2] As of April 2015, Gideons
International has distributed over two billion Bibles."
The Gideons International - Wikipedia
How much $$ money is needed to distribute 70 million Bibles
every 12 months?
How can a Christian $fund the Lord Jesus' Great Commission if he
is at the poverty level?
The New Testament is bold and clear on the principle behind the
parable of The Good Samaritan. Get out there and help others
is the message of that parable.
So?
So how can a Christian $fund Samaritan's Purse if he is at the
poverty level?
Samaritan's Purse: Helping In Jesus' Name
Samaritan's Purse out there helping people 24/7/365
and "it ain't $$ cheap either" ~ so how does a Christian
living at the poverty level help $fund Christian's Helping
Others Organizations?
My view:
We don't have to choose between the prosperity gospel
and the poverty gospel..
It takes a lot of $$ money to fund the Lord Jesus' Great Commission
worldwide.
I view $ money as nothing more than a tool to be used to help others
and to $ fund the Lord Jesus's Great Commission. So? So I want all the
$$$$$$ Money i can get my hands on honestly. I want huge enormous
bags of $$$$$$$$$$$$$ money.
There is a principle in Matthew 13:12
Its the principle of The Law Of Use.
The Law Of Use says that if you use what you are given
then you will be given MORE , , , and you will have ABUNDANCE , , ,
but if you do NOT use what you have been given then
you will have taken away from you, that which you have been given.
Best Regards.
JAG
``
2ndRateMind
Member
No one here, I think, has yet argued that Christians ought to be poor. My contention is simply that no one should exploit the poor to become rich.My view:
The following Bible verses are clear and they must be
incorporated into the conversation about the gospel
and prosperity. If we deliberately choose to ignore these
two passages then it will be clear that we are not willing
to make a serious effort to find the true Biblical balance
on what the Bible teaches about the gospel and prosperity.
"Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed
down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into
your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to
you.” Luke 6:38
Compelling conclusion from Luke 6:38
We live in a Give-Get-Give-Get-Give-Get-Give world.
The more we give, the more we get to give.
To give to help others.
Th give to support His Great Commission worldwide.
Etc
"Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be
food in my house. Test me in this,” says the Lord Almighty,
“and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven
and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room
enough to store it." Malachi 3:10
Malachi 3:10 specifically and boldly teaches that God does not
want His people to be poor.
The notion that God wants His people to be poor is utterly
impossible to reconcile with Luke 6:38 and Malachi 3:10
_________________________________
And there are other concepts to be considered too.
Here is one.
"God wants us to be poor"__The Poverty Gospel Christians
Rebuttal:
The notion that says the Father gave us His Son to die on the
cross for us, but He does NOT want to give us a lot of money is
irrational.
"He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him Him up for us
all ~ how will He not also, along with Him,, graciously give us all
things." Romans 8:32
____________________________
Here is another:
How can a Christian $fund The Gideon's International if he is
at the poverty level? Are Bibles free? Or do they cost $$money?
In my city, just last week The Gideon's International gave out
5000 Bibles on the campus of a large secular university. Assume
each one cost them $4.00. How much $$money is that?
_________________
"Members of The Gideon's International currently average
distribution of over 70 million Bibles annually. On average,
more than two copies of the Bible are distributed per second
through Gideons International.[2] As of April 2015, Gideons
International has distributed over two billion Bibles."
__________________The Gideons International - Wikipedia
How much $$ money is needed to distribute 70 million Bibles
every 12 months?
How can a Christian $fund the Lord Jesus' Great Commission if he
is at the poverty level?
The New Testament is bold and clear on the principle behind the
parable of The Good Samaritan. Get out there and help others
is the message of that parable.
So?
So how can a Christian $fund Samaritan's Purse if he is at the
poverty level?
Samaritan's Purse: Helping In Jesus' Name
Samaritan's Purse out there helping people 24/7/365
and "it ain't $$ cheap either" ~ so how does a Christian
living at the poverty level help $fund Christian's Helping
Others Organizations?
My view:
We don't have to choose between the prosperity gospel
and the poverty gospel..
It takes a lot of $$ money to fund the Lord Jesus' Great Commission
worldwide.
I view $ money as nothing more than a tool to be used to help others
and to $ fund the Lord Jesus's Great Commission. So? So I want all the
$$$$$$ Money i can get my hands on honestly. I want huge enormous
bags of $$$$$$$$$$$$$ money.
There is a principle in Matthew 13:12
Its the principle of The Law Of Use.
The Law Of Use says that if you use what you are given
then you will be given MORE , , , and you will have ABUNDANCE , , ,
but if you do NOT use what you have been given then
you will have taken away from you, that which you have been given.
Best Regards.
JAG
``
Best wishes, 2RM.
That's good news that nobody here wants Christians to be poor.
However within Evangelical Christendom there would be significant
numbers of Christians that would strongly disagree with both the
tone and the conclusions of my post that you quoted.
Significant numbers of 21st century Evangelicals do not view the
21st century as being a God-established Give-Get-Give-Get-Give-Get-Give world.
And they would not want to strongly emphasize these two
Bible verses:
______________________
(1) "Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed
down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into
your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to
you.” Luke 6:38
(2) "Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be
food in my house. Test me in this,” says the Lord Almighty,
“and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven
and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room
enough to store it." Malachi 3:10
_________________________
Agreed ~ that the poor ought not to be exploited by anyone.
Best.
JAG
``