The Protestant Pope and The Passion

[Walpole]

Is the idea of immaculate conception supported in Scripture somewhere? I often think that the church came up with this dogma because the church couldn't come to grips with the idea that she could possibly be just another human.

Yes, it is in Scripture that was removed from the Protestant canon.

Wisdom 1:4 ---> "For wisdom will not enter into a malicious soul, nor dwell in a body subject to sin."

Who does Scripture call wisdom? (1 Cor 1:24, 30)
In whose body did wisdom dwell? (Luke 1:31)

If Christ is the Wisdom of God and if Mary is the person in whose body He dwelt, then there is the Immaculate Conception.

The text often cited is Luke 1:28 however, searching through many common translations the only translations that use the phrase "full of grace" when describing Mary, is the Catholic Bibles. All the rest use a phrase similar to "favored one."

Even the phrase, full of grace, really implies that God bestowed upon her His grace. If it means to be immaculate, then we all become immaculate when God gives us His grace as well.

In Luke 1:28, Gabriel addressed Mary with, “Hail” followed by the word, “kecharitomene”. This Greek word is translated as “most favored or highly favored” and from the traditional Latin translation of “full of grace“ (gratia plena). However, this unique word means Mary was “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." [Blass and DeBrunner, A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature]. No one else in Scripture or history is described by this word. It is completely unique and fitting only to Mary, as it is fitting and unique only to the person who would give a human nature to the Logos.

One more interesting side note about the annunciation scene St. Luke describes at Nazareth: Notice how Gabriel addresses Mary. He addresses her with, "Hail", rather than her name. This was a formal address used in the courts of kings and queens. It is meant to both honor and reverence the person being addressed. However, man is lower than angels in the order of grace. Hence in the Scriptures, man always honors and venerates the angels. What makes this encounter more unique is here Gabriel actually honors and venerates Mary. The Blessed Virgin was superior to any of the angels in the fullness of grace, and as an indication of this, Gabriel showed reverence to her by greeting her with a title, "Hail, full of grace" rather than her name.


Lastly, it is important to remember that Satan hates Mary. Mary embodies the promises of redemption in her person. She is the type, figure and image of the Church. In her person is the fullness of redemption and she reveals what it means to be redeemed. Thus anyone who seeks to denigrate her or diminish her role in the economy of salvation is acting in the spirit of anti-Christ.


I know you are Lutheran so I'll end with a prayer on Mary's Magnificat by Luther...

"Now I do not know in all the Scriptures anything that so well serves such a purpose as this sacred hymn of the most blessed Mother of God, which ought indeed to be learned and kept in mind by all who would rule well and be helpful lords. Truly she sings in it most sweetly of the fear of God, what manner of lord He is, and especially what His dealings are with those of high and of low degree. Let another listen to his love singing a worldly ditty; this pure Virgin well deserves to be heard by a prince and lord, as she sings him her sacred, chaste and salutary song. It is a fine custom, too, that this canticle is sung in all the churches daily at vespers, and to a particular and appropriate setting that distinguishes it from the other chants.

May the tender Mother of God herself procure for me the spirit of wisdom, profitably and thoroughly to expound this song of hers, so that your Grace as well as we all may draw therefrom wholesome knowledge and a praiseworthy life, and thus come to chant and sing this Magnificat eternally in heaven. To this may God help us. Amen.

Herewith I commend myself to your Grace, humbly praying your Grace in all kindness to receive my poor effort."

- Martin Luther, Wittenberg, 10 March, 1521

 

[King Dan of Great the 1st]

Yes, it is Scripture that was removed from the Protestant canon.

Wisdom 1:4 ---> "For wisdom will not enter into a malicious soul, nor dwell in a body subject to sin."


Who does Scripture call wisdom? (1 Cor 1:24, 30)

In whose body did wisdom dwell? (Luke 1:31)

If Christ is the Wisdom of God and if Mary is the person in whose body He dwelt, then there is the Immaculate Conception.


In Luke 1:28, Gabriel addressed Mary with, “Hail” followed by the word, “kecharitomene”. This Greek word is translated as “most favored or highly favored” and from the traditional Latin translation of “full of grace“ (gratia plena). However, this unique word means Mary was “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." [Blass and DeBrunner, A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature]. No one else in Scripture or history is described by this word. It is completely unique and fitting only to Mary, as it is fitting and unique only to the person who would give a human nature to the Logos.

One more interesting side note about the annunciation scene St. Luke describes at Nazareth: Notice how Gabriel addresses Mary. He addresses her with, "Hail", rather than her name. This was a formal address used in the courts of kings and queens. It is meant to both honor and reverence the person being addressed. However, man is lower than angels in the order of grace. Hence in the Scriptures, man always honors and venerates the angels. What makes this encounter more unique is here Gabriel actually honors and venerates Mary. The Blessed Virgin was superior to any of the angels in the fullness of grace, and as an indication of this, Gabriel showed reverence to her by greeting her with a title, "Hail, full of grace" rather than her name.


Lastly, it is important to remember that Satan hates Mary. Mary embodies the promises of redemption in her person. She is the type, figure and image of the Church. In her person is the fullness of redemption and she reveals what it means to be redeemed. Thus anyone who seeks to denigrate her or diminish her role in salvation history is acting in the spirit of anti-Christ.


I know you are Lutheran so I'll end with a prayer on Mary's Magnificat by Luther...

"Now I do not know in all the Scriptures anything that so well serves such a purpose as this sacred hymn of the most blessed Mother of God, which ought indeed to be learned and kept in mind by all who would rule well and be helpful lords. Truly she sings in it most sweetly of the fear of God, what manner of lord He is, and especially what His dealings are with those of high and of low degree. Let another listen to his love singing a worldly ditty; this pure Virgin well deserves to be heard by a prince and lord, as she sings him her sacred, chaste and salutary song. It is a fine custom, too, that this canticle is sung in all the churches daily at vespers, and to a particular and appropriate setting that distinguishes it from the other chants.

May the tender Mother of God herself procure for me the spirit of wisdom, profitably and thoroughly to expound this song of hers, so that your Grace as well as we all may draw therefrom wholesome knowledge and a praiseworthy life, and thus come to chant and sing this Magnificat eternally in heaven. To this may God help us. Amen.

Herewith I commend myself to your Grace, humbly praying your Grace in all kindness to receive my poor effort."

- Martin Luther, Wittenberg, 10 March, 1521

The angel said to Mary, rejoice and be glad you who are highly favoured the lord is with you blessed are you among women.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, it is in Scripture that was removed from the Protestant canon.

Wisdom 1:4 ---> "For wisdom will not enter into a malicious soul, nor dwell in a body subject to sin."

Who does Scripture call wisdom? (1 Cor 1:24, 30)
In whose body did wisdom dwell? (Luke 1:31)

If Christ is the Wisdom of God and if Mary is the person in whose body He dwelt, then there is the Immaculate Conception.


In Luke 1:28, Gabriel addressed Mary with, “Hail” followed by the word, “kecharitomene”. This Greek word is translated as “most favored or highly favored” and from the traditional Latin translation of “full of grace“ (gratia plena). However, this unique word means Mary was “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." [Blass and DeBrunner, A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature]. No one else in Scripture or history is described by this word. It is completely unique and fitting only to Mary, as it is fitting and unique only to the person who would give a human nature to the Logos.

One more interesting side note about the annunciation scene St. Luke describes at Nazareth: Notice how Gabriel addresses Mary. He addresses her with, "Hail", rather than her name. This was a formal address used in the courts of kings and queens. It is meant to both honor and reverence the person being addressed. However, man is lower than angels in the order of grace. Hence in the Scriptures, man always honors and venerates the angels. What makes this encounter more unique is here Gabriel actually honors and venerates Mary. The Blessed Virgin was superior to any of the angels in the fullness of grace, and as an indication of this, Gabriel showed reverence to her by greeting her with a title, "Hail, full of grace" rather than her name.


Lastly, it is important to remember that Satan hates Mary. Mary embodies the promises of redemption in her person. She is the type, figure and image of the Church. In her person is the fullness of redemption and she reveals what it means to be redeemed. Thus anyone who seeks to denigrate her or diminish her role in the economy of salvation is acting in the spirit of anti-Christ.


I know you are Lutheran so I'll end with a prayer on Mary's Magnificat by Luther...

"Now I do not know in all the Scriptures anything that so well serves such a purpose as this sacred hymn of the most blessed Mother of God, which ought indeed to be learned and kept in mind by all who would rule well and be helpful lords. Truly she sings in it most sweetly of the fear of God, what manner of lord He is, and especially what His dealings are with those of high and of low degree. Let another listen to his love singing a worldly ditty; this pure Virgin well deserves to be heard by a prince and lord, as she sings him her sacred, chaste and salutary song. It is a fine custom, too, that this canticle is sung in all the churches daily at vespers, and to a particular and appropriate setting that distinguishes it from the other chants.

May the tender Mother of God herself procure for me the spirit of wisdom, profitably and thoroughly to expound this song of hers, so that your Grace as well as we all may draw therefrom wholesome knowledge and a praiseworthy life, and thus come to chant and sing this Magnificat eternally in heaven. To this may God help us. Amen.

Herewith I commend myself to your Grace, humbly praying your Grace in all kindness to receive my poor effort."

- Martin Luther, Wittenberg, 10 March, 1521

Great post !

 

[GodsGrace]

When I was in HS many years ago the star of our friday lunch was the square fish . I always wondered where square fish came from .

wondering​

Thank you for explaining things about the RCC . I have done an all day juice fast , they are many ways to fast .

LOL
We must have gone to the same high school!

Yes, fasting is like praying...
And it's done for specific reasons.
We should have a thread on this...

Walpole is the resident expert on all things Catholic....I hope you follow his posts.

 

[Walpole]

LOL
We must have gone to the same high school!

Yes, fasting is like praying...
And it's done for specific reasons.
We should have a thread on this...

Walpole is the resident expert on all things Catholic....I hope you follow his posts.

I'm hardly the expert.

I have been busy lately, but will try to respond to the numerous posts in the other thread.

 

[Walpole]

When I was in HS many years ago the star of our friday lunch was the square fish . I always wondered where square fish came from .

wondering​

Thank you for explaining things about the RCC . I have done an all day juice fast , they are many ways to fast .

Aside from the health benefits of fasting, in the spiritual life, it is done as a mortification in order to subdue the body's appetites in order to orient one's reason and faith back to God.

 

[WIP]

Yes, it is in Scripture that was removed from the Protestant canon.

Wisdom 1:4 ---> "For wisdom will not enter into a malicious soul, nor dwell in a body subject to sin."

Who does Scripture call wisdom? (1 Cor 1:24, 30)
In whose body did wisdom dwell? (Luke 1:31)

If Christ is the Wisdom of God and if Mary is the person in whose body He dwelt, then there is the Immaculate Conception.


In Luke 1:28, Gabriel addressed Mary with, “Hail” followed by the word, “kecharitomene”. This Greek word is translated as “most favored or highly favored” and from the traditional Latin translation of “full of grace“ (gratia plena). However, this unique word means Mary was “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." [Blass and DeBrunner, A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature]. No one else in Scripture or history is described by this word. It is completely unique and fitting only to Mary, as it is fitting and unique only to the person who would give a human nature to the Logos.

One more interesting side note about the annunciation scene St. Luke describes at Nazareth: Notice how Gabriel addresses Mary. He addresses her with, "Hail", rather than her name. This was a formal address used in the courts of kings and queens. It is meant to both honor and reverence the person being addressed. However, man is lower than angels in the order of grace. Hence in the Scriptures, man always honors and venerates the angels. What makes this encounter more unique is here Gabriel actually honors and venerates Mary. The Blessed Virgin was superior to any of the angels in the fullness of grace, and as an indication of this, Gabriel showed reverence to her by greeting her with a title, "Hail, full of grace" rather than her name.


Lastly, it is important to remember that Satan hates Mary. Mary embodies the promises of redemption in her person. She is the type, figure and image of the Church. In her person is the fullness of redemption and she reveals what it means to be redeemed. Thus anyone who seeks to denigrate her or diminish her role in the economy of salvation is acting in the spirit of anti-Christ.


I know you are Lutheran so I'll end with a prayer on Mary's Magnificat by Luther...

"Now I do not know in all the Scriptures anything that so well serves such a purpose as this sacred hymn of the most blessed Mother of God, which ought indeed to be learned and kept in mind by all who would rule well and be helpful lords. Truly she sings in it most sweetly of the fear of God, what manner of lord He is, and especially what His dealings are with those of high and of low degree. Let another listen to his love singing a worldly ditty; this pure Virgin well deserves to be heard by a prince and lord, as she sings him her sacred, chaste and salutary song. It is a fine custom, too, that this canticle is sung in all the churches daily at vespers, and to a particular and appropriate setting that distinguishes it from the other chants.

May the tender Mother of God herself procure for me the spirit of wisdom, profitably and thoroughly to expound this song of hers, so that your Grace as well as we all may draw therefrom wholesome knowledge and a praiseworthy life, and thus come to chant and sing this Magnificat eternally in heaven. To this may God help us. Amen.

Herewith I commend myself to your Grace, humbly praying your Grace in all kindness to receive my poor effort."

- Martin Luther, Wittenberg, 10 March, 1521

Thank you for your reply.

I have often wondered why certain books were removed from the Protestant Bible. I have found it difficult to find an objective answer to that question. There is too much animosity between Catholics and Protestants. Like trying to get an objective answer from Democrats vs Republicans, getting an unbiased answer from Catholics vs Protestants is also a steep uphill battle and if we are all Christian as we claim to be, this should not be so difficult.