The Rapture

[WalterandDebbie]

Christ Warned of False Predictions
Jesus' disciples wondered about the return of Christ and the end of the world. "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" (Matthew 24:3). The Greek word translated "world" in this verse is aion and actually means "age." They were referring to the end of this present evil age, not the end of planet Earth itself, but the end of this present evil civilization under the sway of Satan the devil.
What did Jesus tell them?

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying I am Christ; and shall deceive many' (verses 4-5).
Can you imagine that? The very first thing Jesus warned His followers was to beware of deceivers -- false prophets -- who would deceive MANY! How true His words were! Millions are deceived, confused, today, even about the Second Coming of Jesus Christ! His words have been misinterpreted, misunderstood, misconstrued, and manhandled by many who simply refuse to believe He meant exactly what He said!

The Coming of the Lord
We read in I Thessalonians, “For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will be no means 19
20
precede those who have died. For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend FROM heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the AIR; and so we will be with the Lord forever” (I Thess.4:15-17).

Notice! Christ will return FROM heaven, and arrive in the AIR – the atmosphere surrounding planet Earth. THEN we will be caught up to MEET HIM, as He is returning to the earth!
The prophet Zechariah goes on to explain, “Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations as when he fights on the day of battle. On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives, which lies before Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley; so that one half the Mount shall withdraw northward, and the other half southward” (Zech.14:3-4).
When the Messiah returns, His feet shall stand in that very day upon the Mount of Olives! How plain it is!

Pre-Tribulation Rapture – a Great Deception
Let’s really understand this! The “secret rapture” theory espoused by Tim LaHaye and most “Christians,” today, is a serious and fatal error. It will likely cause immense multitudes to be unprepared for the diabolical reign of the Beast, or the Antichrist! They assume they will be taken up to heaven before the Great Tribulation, but God promises no such thing! Be sure to read our article, “The Secret Rapture – Fact or Fallacy?” They will be completely, utterly unprepared for the great travail and suffering that will come upon them!
Joseph Goode and other teachers claim that Christ will take His church up to heaven for a period of seven years. While there, the marriage feast will occur in heaven.

The saints then will have to watch the horrible agony of the people “left behind” on the earth! They will have to see the poor Jewish Messianic believers go through savage hell on earth.
Is this what God really intends?
Others claim that the Messiah returns to take His flock up to heaven after 3 ½ years of the seven-year tribulation period have passed. Still others say the saints are taken to heaven for only a few months, and then return with the Messiah to this earth.
All these theories are DEAD WRONG! The “secret rapture” is a serious deception of Satan the devil, to destroy God’s people by misleading them into a totally false sense of security!

When Christ returns, it will be a loud, shining, shattering, incredible event. The archangel will blow a loud trumpet. Paul wrote, “Listen! I will tell you a mystery! We will not all die, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed” (I Cor.15:51-52, NRSV).
When the Messiah returns, there will be a mighty shout – the thundering voice of an archangel – which will shake up the nations (I Thess.4:16). It will be heard worldwide, and at that point the dead in Christ will rise, and the living saints will be changed and given a glorious new body, and rise to meet Him in the sky as He returns to earth.

When the Messiah comes, and the saints are resurrected, and meet Him in the air, it will be accompanied by THUNDER! And the nations will “SEE the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with POWER and GREAT GLORY. And he will send out his angels with a LOUD TRUMPET CALL, and they will gather his elect, from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other” (Matt.24:30-31, NRSV).
The saints will be with Him as He sets His feet on the Mount of Olives (Zech.14:4), “in that day” – that very day. Not 3 ½ or 7 years later! He will come in “clouds of heaven with power and great glory” (Matt.24:30), and “every eye shall SEE him” (Rev.1:7).
Does that sound like a “secret” coming? The only thing “secret” about it will be its TIMING! No one will know the “day or the hour” (Matt.24:36). In that sense, His coming will be like a thief – totally unexpected by the vast majority of people (v.42-44).

The Second Coming will not be a silent, clandestine, secretive, invisible event, with people “disappearing” suddenly from wherever they are, as rapturists proclaim. Such a theory is in denial of the plain scriptures. Such a hope is a false hope, a satanic delusion, a deception of the devil who seeks to entrap and seduce God’s people into a false sense of security. They will stumble unwatchful and heedless into the Jaws of Great Tribulation.

Great Tribulation Comes FIRST!
The very next sign or event to look for, He said, is war in the Middle East!
Notice it! Let’s pick up the story flow in Matthew 24: “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoso reads, let him understand), then let those who are in Judaea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take any thing out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But WOE to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

 

[Kathi]

Question: "What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming?"

Answer:The rapture and the second coming of Christ are often confused. Sometimes it is difficult to determine whether a scripture verse is referring to the rapture or the second coming. However, in studying end-times Bible prophecy, it is very important to differentiate between the two.

The rapture is when Jesus Christ returns to remove the church (all believers in Christ) from the earth. The rapture is described in1 Thessalonians 4:13-18and1 Corinthians 15:50-54. Believers who have died will have their bodies resurrected and, along with believers who are still living, will meet the Lord in the air. This will all occur in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye. The second coming is when Jesus returns to defeat the Antichrist, destroy evil, and establish His millennial kingdom. The second coming is described inRevelation 19:11-16.

The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9;Revelation 3:10).

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17,5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7;Matthew 24:29-30).

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4;Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13;1 Thessalonians 4:13-18;1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?

1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9;Revelation 3:10).

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).

3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).

The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire.

Read more:http://www.gotquestions.org/difference-Rapture-Second-Coming.html#ixzz3O5rmnQ3C

 

[JLB]

Christ Warned of False Predictions
Jesus' disciples wondered about the return of Christ and the end of the world. "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" (Matthew 24:3). The Greek word translated "world" in this verse is aion and actually means "age." They were referring to the end of this present evil age, not the end of planet Earth itself, but the end of this present evil civilization under the sway of Satan the devil.
What did Jesus tell them?
"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying I am Christ; and shall deceive many' (verses 4-5).
Can you imagine that? The very first thing Jesus warned His followers was to beware of deceivers -- false prophets -- who would deceive MANY! How true His words were! Millions are deceived, confused, today, even about the Second Coming of Jesus Christ! His words have been misinterpreted, misunderstood, misconstrued, and manhandled by many who simply refuse to believe He meant exactly what He said!

The Coming of the Lord
We read in I Thessalonians, “For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will be no means 19
20
precede those who have died. For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend FROM heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the AIR; and so we will be with the Lord forever” (I Thess.4:15-17).

Notice! Christ will return FROM heaven, and arrive in the AIR – the atmosphere surrounding planet Earth. THEN we will be caught up to MEET HIM, as He is returning to the earth!
The prophet Zechariah goes on to explain, “Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations as when he fights on the day of battle. On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives, which lies before Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley; so that one half the Mount shall withdraw northward, and the other half southward” (Zech.14:3-4).
When the Messiah returns, His feet shall stand in that very day upon the Mount of Olives! How plain it is!

Amen!!

Couldn't be any clearer.

The end of this present evil age.

Paul says it this way -

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:22-24

This scripture is clear and sufficient to clarify any misunderstandings with those of different doctrinal beliefs.

Edited Reba see the post # 4


Great word from Walter and Debbie.



JLB

 

[reba]

Please remember while posting.... There are different views on end times that fall into our Statement of Faith.. Please respect other members views , Disagree yup for sure but keep itrespectful...
pre.... mid.... post trib... are all ok here... post trib includes partial preterism..

This post is not directed at any one .. it is posted because the activity is up. thanks reba

 

[Kathi]

And also the word "unbiblical" was used in post #3.Just like in the preterist thread.

 

[JLB]

"Kathi, post: 1038219, member: 6573"]Question: "What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming?"

Answer:The rapture and the second coming of Christ are often confused. Sometimes it is difficult to determine whether a scripture verse is referring to the rapture or the second coming. However, in studying end-times Bible prophecy, it is very important to differentiate between the two.

The rapture is when Jesus Christ returns to remove the church (all believers in Christ) from the earth. The rapture is described in1 Thessalonians 4:13-18and1 Corinthians 15:50-54. Believers who have died will have their bodies resurrected and, along with believers who are still living, will meet the Lord in the air. This will all occur in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye. The second coming is when Jesus returns to defeat the Antichrist, destroy evil, and establish His millennial kingdom. The second coming is described inRevelation 19:11-16.

The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

Here is the scripture you quoted to show the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming.

However, this scripture shows the Resurrection comes first, before the rapture.

We all know the Resurrection is associated with the Second Coming.


Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17


This verse clearly shows the Resurrection and rapture are the same event.


...caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

The Resurrection/Rapture is a simultaneous Event!

Amen!



JLB

 

[Kathi]

Time will tell.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Time will tell.

Yes! Kathi, time will tell.to its End Time.

 

[JLB]

we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.


Caught up together with them...


Together with them..

With them in the clouds, in the air!

Undeniable Truth that the scriptures tell us now.

 

[Malachi]

Pre-Tribulation Rapture – a Great Deception

Only if you give heed to the propaganda generated by the Preterists and Partial Preterists, who will often give you a list of names of men who came up with this idea "out of the blue" in the 19th century. As a matter of fact, the pre-tribulation Rapture belief was held by many Early Church Fathers. Do your research and your own due diligence.

The Rapture is for the Church, therefore you will not find the word (or the entity) "church" from Revelation 3:22 to Rev 19:6. That should be food for thought.

The best way to distinguish between the Rapture and the Revelation is Christ comes FOR His saints at the Rapture (1 Thess 4:13-18), but Christ comes WITH His saints at the Revelation (Rev 19:11-16).

 

[Kathi]

Only if you give heed to the propaganda generated by the Preterists and Partial Preterists, who will often give you a list of names of men who came up with this idea "out of the blue" in the 19th century. As a matter of fact, the pre-tribulation Rapture belief was held by many Early Church Fathers. Do your research and your own due diligence.

The Rapture is for the Church, therefore you will not find the word (or the entity) "church" from Revelation 3:22 to Rev 19:6. That should be food for thought.

The best way to distinguish between the Rapture and the Revelation is Christ comes FOR His saints at the Rapture (1 Thess 4:13-18), but Christ comes WITH His saints at the Revelation (Rev 19:11-16).

Yes Malachi I have done my research and it was taught way before Darby.

 

[Malachi]

Let’s really understand this! The “secret rapture” theory espoused by Tim LaHaye and most “Christians,” today, is a serious and fatal error. It will likely cause immense multitudes to be unprepared for the diabolical reign of the Beast, or the Antichrist!

The propaganda against the pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church generally comes out as "the 'secret' rapture theory", implying that there is something sinister and also something unscriptural about it.

So notice that the same people believe that the Church (redeemed Jews and Gentiles, all having the indwelling Holy Spirit) and God the Holy Spirit Himself -- will exist simultaneously on earth while Satan (through the Antichrist) takes TOTAL AND ABSOLUTE CONTROL of the world for 3 1/2 years -- forty two months (Rev 13:7,8,12-17)!

Think about it and behold the absurdity of this idea. As long as the Church and the Holy Spirit are on earth, Satan is held down -- restrained and rebuked -- by the very fact of their existence on earth. That is what allows the Gospel to be preached and God's Kingdom to be established in human hearts.

Under God's sovereignty, the Devil is allowed a degree of freedom and control today, but never TOTAL AND ABSOLUTE CONTROL as seen in Rev 13. That is proof that the Church and the Holy Spirit are in Heaven after the Rapture when he takes control, and all restraint on the Evil One is temporarily removed for a season.

Therefore it says in 2 Thess 2:7 "only He who now letteth [Gk katecho = holds down, holds fast, withholds, or restrains] will let, until He be taken out of the way". Who can this Person be who restrains and holds down Satan today? It can be none other than God the Holy Spirit. When he is taken out of the way the whole world will indeed be deceived by Satan and the Beast (the Antichrist).

 

[Kathi]

The propaganda against the pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church generally comes out as "the 'secret' rapture theory", implying that there is something sinister and also something unscriptural about it.

So notice that the same people believe that the Church (redeemed Jews and Gentiles, all having the indwelling Holy Spirit) and God the Holy Spirit Himself -- will exist simultaneously on earth while Satan (through the Antichrist) takes TOTAL AND ABSOLUTE CONTROL of the world for 3 1/2 years -- forty two months (Rev 13:7,8,12-17)!

Think about it and behold the absurdity of this idea. As long as the Church and the Holy Spirit are on earth, Satan is held down -- restrained and rebuked -- by the very fact of their existence on earth. That is what allows the Gospel to be preached and God's Kingdom to be established in human hearts.

Under God's sovereignty, the Devil is allowed a degree of freedom and control today, but never TOTAL AND ABSOLUTE CONTROL as seen in Rev 13. That is proof that the Church and the Holy Spirit are in Heaven after the Rapture when he takes control, and all restraint on the Evil One is temporarily removed for a season.

Therefore it says in 2 Thess 2:7 "only He who now letteth [Gk katecho = holds down, holds fast, withholds, or restrains] will let, until He be taken out of the way". Who can this Person be who restrains and holds down Satan today? It can be none other than God the Holy Spirit. When he is taken out of the way the whole world will indeed be deceived by Satan and the Beast (the Antichrist).

Some also feel that there will be a huge falling away of pretrib believers if it does not happen pretrib.That is wrong for me because I am prepared for whatever the Lord wants.
I have also heard that many who do not believe in the pretrib are afraid of the instant rapture and the judgment to follow

 

[john darling]

Hi Kathi. Thanks for sharing your thoughts in such a clear way. I found it very helpful in understanding your position. I take the other position, that the rapture and the 2nd coming of Jesus are the same event. I'll make some comments on your post.

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

I'mma refer to some verses from Daneil to clarify how I see a basic time line unfolding which accounts for this "saints going up" and the "saints coming down" in a way that makes no distinction between the rapture and 2nd coming.

In Daniel 9 we see the agreement to rebuild the temple which kicks off the final 7 years (2520 days). In the middle of the week the AC will cause the sacrifices to cease and this is kicks off the great tribulation. So, I'm suggesting the first 1260 days is the "plastic peace" or time when people are saying "peace, peace" and the second 1260 days will be the Great tribulation.

In Daniel 8:13 We see a period of 2300 days remaining, after the 1st sacrifice until the the sanctuary is "cleansed" (i.e. the return of Jesus).

At 1290 days, in the count down, Dan 12:11-12 says the sacrifices shall cease. Apparently there is a 30 day period of...something between 1260 days when the tribulation is meant to begin and this time period.

In the same segment from Dan 12:11-12 we also get another significant piece of the time line, where the angel says there will be 1290 remaining 'till the end of tribulation, but then the angel also explains that it will be 1335 days 'till the end of the wrath. There is a 45 day discrepancy here which is most likely the time when God will be pouring out the vials of his wrath on an unrepentant world (since the angel actually mentions the wrath).

So according to this time line, here is my account of how it will go down. At the 7th trumpet of the tribulation, the saints are "taken up" where they meet Jesus in the air, along with the new Jerusalem "come down out of Heaven" (rev 21:2).

Rev 19 starts with a lot of praise from saints and a "great multitude" in Heaven, very much like they are having a big party. Verse 9 plainly describes this situation as the marriage supper of the lamb.

At the same time the party is going on in the New Jerusalem (now hovering in the air after it has "come down from Heaven"), the wrath is taking place on an unrepentant world below. According to Daniel, this takes about 45 days.

The last vial (or bowl of wrath) is the battle of Armageddon. Look again at Rev 19. Immediately after the party in Heaven (corresponding with the last vial on earth) the saints gear up with their leader Jesus, riding out for the battle.

This explanation shows how the 2nd coming and the rapture can be the same event, at the end of the 7th trib trumpet and still account for Jesus "coming down out of heaven" in Rev 19. The battle of Armageddon, which Jesus and the saints are "coming down out of heaven" for, is a separate issue from the 2nd coming of Jesus.

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9;Revelation 3:10).

The 1 thess 5 verse doesn't say anything about avoiding the Great trib. It only says that God has not appointed us to wrath, which is true. We go through tribulation, which is designed to test and refine our faith, while we are spared from wrath, which is specifically designed for God's enemies.

The Rev 3:10 verse doesn't say anything about tribulation. It talks about keeping them from the "hour of temptation". That could mean several different things. For example, when Jesus says, "not a hair of your head will be harmed" in the same teachings as "you will be persecuted and killed for my sake", we know there must be something more to the "not a hair harmed" teaching because obviously we will be harmed.

I believe it's something similar with your Rev 3:10 verse, particularly because Jesus prefaces it with a comment about being faithful to his words. We don't keep Jesus words because we want to escape trouble, but rather, keeping Jesus' words is what prepares us for the troubles. For those of us who have already been testing and judging ourselves, the Great tribulation will not be nearly as bad as for those who have lived their lives ignoring the things of God. I know it sounds like a highly spiritualized interpretation but I think it's more consistent with the bigger picture than believing we won't be around at all.

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17,5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

I think you're mixing up tribulation and wrath. God allows all his followers to experience tribulation. There will be one "the Great Tribulation" as a world wide event, but there are some beleivers who experience pretty severe trouble. To them I'm sure it certainly feels pretty "great", and yet God still allows them to go trough it, even to the point of death. God can spare us from more than we can take, but tribulation in general is just a part of the Christian life.

The Matthew 24:40-41 verse doesn't say anything about tribulation or wrath. It describes a situation where God says go; one person answers and the other ignores. One is taken and the other is left. In the Luke 17 version Jesus goes into more detail saying, "lets those on the housetop and those in the field not return to take their stuff". If these verses were either about being raptured or being punished, then this thing about not returning for thier stuff wouldn't make any sense.

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7;Matthew 24:29-30).

Well, the verses themselves don't say anything about being secret. You suggest the rapture is something which happens before the great tribulation, but the 1 Cor 15 verse you site mentions the the changing of our bodies at the "last trumpet". There is no other succession of trumpets in prophecy aside from the 7 trumpets of the tribulation. The 1 Thess 4 verse you site also mentions a trumpet, though it does not clarify it as the "last".

Then, in point 4 of your "differences between the rapture and the 2nd coming" you site Matthew 24:29-30 as an example of the 2nd coming, but in verse 31 of that same description Jesus also talks about the "sound of a great trumpet".

So, in your explanation, you have both the rapture and the 2nd coming happening along with the sound of a trumpet.

 

[john darling]

and to address the second part of your post...

Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?

1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9;Revelation 3:10).

The implication is that the importance is in avoiding the great tribulation. In other words, if the two are the same, then Christians will need to go through the great tribulation, which is why it's important to keep them separate.

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).

It depends on what you mean by "imminent". Opinions about how long "long" may be or how short "short" may be don't seem to be particularly reliable explanations for distinguishing between that one verse that talks about meeting Jesus in the air and that other verse that talks about meeting Jesus in the air as being separate events.

3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church

Sure it does. Revelation 12 talks about a "woman" being "nourished in the desert for a time, times and the dividing of times". Here is a reference to the last 3.5 years and God "keeping them from the hour of temptation" perhaps, not by removing them from all trouble, but by providing them with protection and guidance during the trouble.
They are described as people who "keep the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ".

Rev 11:2-3 talks about "treading the Holy city underfoot for 42 months". Here's another reference to the 3.5 years of the Great Tribulation. The "Holy city" here is a reference to church. Our bodies are the temple now. I doubt physical city of Jerusalem is the holy city being described considering in the same chapter, verse 8, the angel has a shot at the physical Jerusalem, comparing it to Sodom.

 

[Kathi]

It would be nice to get Malachi in here.He is a very good teacher.

 

[Malachi]

It would be nice to get Malachi in here.He is a very good teacher.

Kathi,
Thanks for the vote of confidence. I have responded in this thread earlier on. Something which many Christians refuse to accept is that neither Daniel nor Revelation have anything to say about the Rapture (Rev 4:1 is about the apostle John being invited to come up to Heaven to receive the rest of the prophecies in this book). All attempts to force Scriptures from Revelation to somehow disclose the Rapture are futile.

I have started a thread on "The Blessed Hope vs Universal Mourning". That should be checked out by opponents of a pre-tribulation Rapture. On the one hand we have a "Blessed Hope" -- something that is wonderful and full of blessings. On the other hand we have universal mourning because of universal judgments. So Christians should firstly get this fundamental difference firmly established in their minds. This also means that there are TWO PHASES to the Second Coming of Christ: Phase I -- the Rapture, when the Lord comes FOR His saints, and Phase II -- the Revelation, when Christ comes WITH His saints.

 

[Kathi]

Kathi,
Thanks for the vote of confidence. I have responded in this thread earlier on. Something which many Christians refuse to accept is that neither Daniel nor Revelation have anything to say about the Rapture (Rev 4:1 is about the apostle John being invited to come up to Heaven to receive the rest of the prophecies in this book). All attempts to force Scriptures from Revelation to somehow disclose the Rapture are futile.

I have started a thread on "The Blessed Hope vs Universal Mourning". That should be checked out by opponents of a pre-tribulation Rapture. On the one hand we have a "Blessed Hope" -- something that is wonderful and full of blessings. On the other hand we have universal mourning because of universal judgments. So Christians should firstly get this fundamental difference firmly established in their minds. This also means that there are TWO PHASES to the Second Coming of Christ: Phase I -- the Rapture, when the Lord comes FOR His saints, and Phase II -- the Revelation, when Christ comes WITH His saints.

You are welcome

.I am always willing to learn from the right teacher.This makes sense.

 

[john darling]

Something which many Christians refuse to accept is that neither Daniel nor Revelation have anything to say about the Rapture (Rev 4:1 is about the apostle John being invited to come up to Heaven to receive the rest of the prophecies in this book). All attempts to force Scriptures from Revelation to somehow disclose the Rapture are futile.

Hi Malachi. I think what you're saying is that you'd prefer to discuss this over on the new thread you've just made, which I can appreciate, though your comments regarding the information I shared on this thread do seem to be a bit dismissive. I don't think there's any force in my comments. The angels revealed some dates to Daniel which correspond to events described in the Revelation as well as comments from Jesus and Paul. I put those comments into a time line which shows a bigger picture where a rapture before the tribulation just doesn't make sense based on the information.

I also offered some alternative interpretations to some of the common pro pre-trib rapture verses which are consistent with that bigger picture. Perhaps I included too much information and the post comes across as daunting. Anyway, I'll have a look at the new thread you mentioned.

 

[Malachi]

Rev 11:2-3 talks about "treading the Holy city underfoot for 42 months". Here's another reference to the 3.5 years of the Great Tribulation. The "Holy city" here is a reference to church. Our bodies are the temple now. I doubt physical city of Jerusalem is the holy city being described considering in the same chapter, verse 8, the angel has a shot at the physical Jerusalem, comparing it to Sodom.

John,
I'm sure you mean well, but you will need to study this subject a little more carefully:

1. Take a concordance and go through every reference to "the holy city". It is always a reference to Jerusalem on earth, never to the Church.

2. There are two segments of 3 1/2 years to Daniel's 70th week. In the first half the Antichrist (the Beast) takes full control of this earth and sets up the Abomination of Desolation. In the second half, God pours out the judgments of the 6th and 7th seals. That is the Great Tribulation (aka "The Day of the Lord"). Therefore your suggesting that the 3.5 years in Rev 11 refers to the Great Tribulation is incorrect. While the Beast is deceiving the world, God's two prophets are testifying for God (hence "witnesses" and "testimony"). This is happening before the Day of the Lord and corresponds to Malachi's prophecy that Elijah will come before the Day of the Lord (Mal 4:5). The other prophet is apparently Moses (though not named).

3. You can doubt all you want to about the holy city Jerusalem. What you fail to understand is that under the influence of the Beast, it has indeed taken on the characteristics of Sodom and Egypt. However, after the Great Tribulation, Christ will redeem and restore this city just as He redeems and restores Israel before the Millenium. It will indeed become "the holy city" in reality. At present it is "trodden down of the Gentiles" and the Dome of the Rock desecrates the Temple Mount. That will all change at the second coming of Christ.

In view of this, everything else that you are posting is not really tenable. But we will leave that for another time.