The Real Trinity please stand up!

[Brother Mike]

Parts stolen from:
wolpub.org/blog/?p=208


Praise God everyone, Brother Mike here with no spell checker, AWK!!! Bare with me. I am going to talk about the Trinity Doctrine today, Yesterday and beyond if you read this after the day posted.

No single doctrine has caused such a division in churches from the time of the Trinity's conception, and even today. OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) doctrine comes as runner up somewhere, but not near as strong as the Trinity Doctrine.

Most believers say they believe in the Trinity doctrine. That's fine, the issue is they don't exactly know what they believe in, but only things they have picked up and heard. To make matters worse, there is another doctrine that is close to the Trinity doctrine, but not the Trinity doctrine, so both doctrines often get mixed together and called Trinity. It's actually called Modelism.

So, I'll break it down, just for fun. It's not a essential doctrine or all that important anyway. It's good to know what your actually debating though, and believe.

Now, I am not going to talk about all the Wannabe Trinity doctrines. There are many of them, all worded differently. We are going back to the original, where it all started.

It all came about when a guy named Arius contended that Jesus was a created being. He had a pretty large following, and was only going by the scriptures he read. Jesus was begotten, Jesus is not the Father, and Jesus and the father are listed together in many scriptures making two of them. Jesus being the lesser of them.

Folks, this is way back past 325ad, there were no bible programs and you did well to even get parts of the scripture together in one place. I think Arius did OK, for what He had to work with.

The Roman Cathloic church saw things a bit differently. They contended that Jesus was not a created being, or a lesser being.

There was a lot more to this, go google it to find all the arguements. The main thing is that Rome did not care much for what Arius was teaching.

So, in 325ad the council of Nicena came together to define Jesus. For you Anti-Trinitarians out there, the council did not make up the trinity out of the triune pagan gods that Anti-Trinitarians claim. That is nonesense. The original Trinity Doctine did not include a Triune anything, as you will see.

Original True Trinity Doctrine:

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible.And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance (ὁμοούσιον) (homoousion) with the Father; by whom all things were made both in heaven and on earth; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man; he suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.And in the Holy Ghost.But those who say: ‘There was a time when he was not;’ and ‘He was not before he was made;’ and ‘He was made out of nothing,’ or ‘He is of another substance’ or ‘essence,’ or ‘The Son of God is created,’ or ‘changeable,’ or ‘alterable’—they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church

Lets examine this. Jesus is not the Father, but came from this same God substance as the FAther. Jesus was Begotten, not created. (ummmm, no, Jesus has always been here, begotten as human through Mary though by the spoken Word) The church sort of corrects this by saying, "If anyone says there was a time when he was not" then they are burned at the stake of course, or however Rome handled those type of things back in the day.

So, Jesus is God, Not the Father, Not the Holy Spirit, Not the creator, but of the same substance as God the Father. There is your Trinity Doctrine.

Modern pure Trinity believers have changed it to say Jesus is the same Nature as God the Father, or same God classs as the Father. I found many different versions of the doctrine, some leaning toward Oneness, others keeping pure Trinity Doctrine the best possible.

Much, Much, Much later the Holy Spirit was added in the Mix in 381ad. Later still these 3 are One God. The God substance was removed, and they just become one. 3 are 1.

Purist did not like the conversion to just being one God, but still of the same substance or nature. Hence small wars break out. Many debates on the interpetation of the original doctrine.

IN 1914 a new Doctrine comes to men. It's called Oneness. This Website believers in Oneness.

Oneness doctrine states that there 1 God that manifest himself as 3, or whatever is needed. 1 is 3, not 3 is 1.

This doctrine split the Assymblies of God church in 1928. A Major split of a major denomination based on a Roman Cathloic doctrine. Real dumb if you ask me.

Later, Different camps added their own spin. You will often hear phrases like the "Eternal Godhead" or Jesus, the 2nd Person in the Trinity. Jesus is the King of Kings He is not a 2nd person of anything, the Lord of Lords.

Keep in mind that the Johannine Comma was not around when the Trinity was formed. (1 John 5:7) The first record of it was not around until much, much later, it was added because of the pressure Rome was giving around 1522.

Modelist attempt to prove Trinity in scripture and end up in the Oneness camp. Trinity can't be proven or is found in scripture. Rome wrote that, the folks that made the doctrine, but is a mystery of the Christian faith. If the folks that made the doctrine says it's not there, then I just take their word for it.

What do I believe? Jesus is the son of God, not his Father, is God like His father and has always been ther the great I am. There are two, God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ as mentioned together in over 52 scriptures. I can count folks, there are 2. Trinity never tried to defend monotheism (Belief in one God) They were defending Jesus not being a created being or less then God the Father. Modern man came along later and used the doctrine from Rome to defend the One God stance.


Don't take my word for anything, go look this up on your own. I hope you had fun reading this.

Blessings.

 

[Kathi]

Question: "What does the Bible teach about the Trinity?"

Answer:The most difficult thing about the Christian concept of the Trinity is that there is no way to perfectly and completely understand it. The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain. God is infinitely greater than we are; therefore, we should not expect to be able to fully understand Him. The Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also teaches that there is only one God. Though we can understand some facts about the relationship of the different Persons of the Trinity to one another, ultimately, it is incomprehensible to the human mind. However, this does not mean the Trinity is not true or that it is not based on the teachings of the Bible.

The Trinity is one God existing in three Persons. Understand that this is not in any way suggesting three Gods. Keep in mind when studying this subject that the word “Trinity” is not found in Scripture. This is a term that is used to attempt to describe the triune God—three coexistent, co-eternal Persons who make up God. Of real importance is that the concept represented by the word “Trinity” does exist in Scripture. The following is what God’s Word says about the Trinity:

1) There is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4;1 Corinthians 8:4;Galatians 3:20;1 Timothy 2:5).

2) The Trinity consists of three Persons (Genesis 1:1,26;3:22;11:7;Isaiah 6:8,48:16,61:1;Matthew 3:16-17,28:19;2 Corinthians 13:14). InGenesis 1:1, the Hebrew plural noun "Elohim" is used. InGenesis 1:26,3:22,11:7andIsaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for “us” is used. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun “us” are plural forms, definitely referring in the Hebrew language to more than two. While this is not an explicit argument for the Trinity, it does denote the aspect of plurality in God. The Hebrew word for "God," "Elohim," definitely allows for the Trinity.

InIsaiah 48:16and61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. CompareIsaiah 61:1toLuke 4:14-19to see that it is the Son speaking.Matthew 3:16-17describes the event of Jesus' baptism. Seen in this passage is God the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son.Matthew 28:19and2 Corinthians 13:14are examples of three distinct Persons in the Trinity.

3) The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages. In the Old Testament, “LORD” is distinguished from “Lord” (Genesis 19:24;Hosea 1:4). The LORD has a Son (Psalm 2:7,12;Proverbs 30:2-4). The Spirit is distinguished from the “LORD” (Numbers 27:18) and from “God” (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7;Hebrews 1:8-9). In the New Testament, Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17). This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit. Consider also all the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another Person in the Trinity—the Father.

4) Each member of the Trinity is God. The Father is God (John 6:27;Romans 1:7;1 Peter 1:2). The Son is God (John 1:1,14;Romans 9:5;Colossians 2:9;Hebrews 1:8;1 John 5:20). The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4;1 Corinthians 3:16).

5) There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any Person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son seeLuke 22:42,John 5:36,John 20:21, and1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit seeJohn 14:16,14:26,15:26,16:7, and especiallyJohn 16:13-14.

6) The individual members of the Trinity have different tasks. The Father is the ultimate source or cause of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6;Revelation 4:11); divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); salvation (John 3:16-17); and Jesus' human works (John 5:17;14:10). The Father initiates all of these things.

The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6;John 1:3;Colossians 1:16-17); divine revelation (John 1:1,16:12-15;Matthew 11:27;Revelation 1:1); and salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19;Matthew 1:21;John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent.

The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2;Job 26:13;Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15;Ephesians 3:5;2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6;Titus 3:5;1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1;Acts 10:38). Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.



Read more:http://www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html#ixzz3L4XR8tdN

 

[Brother Mike]

Question: "What does the Bible teach about the Trinity?"

Answer:The most difficult thing about the Christian concept of the Trinity is that there is no way to perfectly and completely understand it. The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain. God is infinitely greater than we are; therefore, we should not expect to be able to fully understand Him. The Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also teaches that there is only one God. Though we can understand some facts about the relationship of the different Persons of the Trinity to one another, ultimately, it is incomprehensible to the human mind. However, this does not mean the Trinity is not true or that it is not based on the teachings of the Bible.

The Trinity is one God existing in three Persons. Understand that this is not in any way suggesting three Gods. Keep in mind when studying this subject that the word “Trinity” is not found in Scripture. This is a term that is used to attempt to describe the triune God—three coexistent, co-eternal Persons who make up God. Of real importance is that the concept represented by the word “Trinity” does exist in Scripture. The following is what God’s Word says about the Trinity:

When folks ask Question about the Bible, we say we don't know, or we should give an answer. Saying there is no way to completely understand it is not a good answer. God said, if any lack wisdom, ask me and I'll give it. Jesus said nothing is hide from us that shall not be manifested, neither anything kept secret that is should not come abroad. So, it's just a matter of asking and getting wisdom.

God never said a word about Trinity. He did say this.

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
(Isa 44:6)

There is no Triune anything, One Lord God, None like Him.

Now the Son, and Holy Spirit have always been with the Father, the Lord God. Why they not mentioned here? Everything the Father did was to put all things living and non-living under the sons rule. The son is not mentioned though or the Holy Spirit.

And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
(Isa 44:7-8)

Now if there were a couple extra gods hanging around, the Lord God would have mentioned them. Zero.

The Son was yet to be revealed anyway, and the Lord God is the only Savior and creator.

At this time, God considered His son to be a servant. This is why God is not mentioning Jesus as God here. The Father is in complete control.

And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
(Isa 49:6-7)

It was to you first that God sent His Servant and Son Jesus, when He raised Him up [provided and gave Him for us], to bless you in turning every one of you from your wickedness and evil ways. [Acts 2:24; 3:22.]
(Act 3:26)

Folks debate on how Pias should be translated. Servant matches the prophecy given in Isa, but Son is fine also. The Holy Spirit would have Uihos if He was not trying to connect something and make a point. No matter, the Amplified mentions both translations.

Latter God the Father Calls his son God. BAM, Two God's, no mistake, it's official.

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
(Heb 1:8)

Jesus is officially God, like the Father if not before. We have two God's now. Mentioned in the same scripture 52 times.

One Lord God, One Lord Jesus Christ.

What about the Holy Spirit?

The Holy Spirit was added in 381ad of a revision of the Original Trinity Doctrine. The Holy Spirit by Theos definition is god, but He is the Spirit of God, or God's Spirit.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
(Joh 16:13)

The Holy Spirit does not speak of his own, He is not God, but only those things which He hears. If he was somehow One God with the Father, then He would speak of his own.
Oneness believes there is only one God, that becomes the Holy Spirit. Not Trinity.

Danger of lumping 3 divine beings into One God

First, it's not the Trinity Doctrine, but some off branch of the original as men make up.

Second, No place in scripture now tells us there is only One God. God the Father called his son God, that would make two. John Calls Jesus the True God, but that don't make the Father any less God.

Third, It's the Antichrist that denies the Father and Son. He would love us to think there is only one.

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

There is only ONE LORD GOD, none like him. Modern Trinity says there are 3 but end up as ONE, so whats the scripture say about Denying one of them?

One Lord God, the Only Lord God, and One Lord Jesus Christ. How many is that?

Blessings.

 

[eddif]

Romans 1:19
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

eddif

 

[Free]

So, I'll break it down, just for fun. It's not a essential doctrine or all that important anyway. It's good to know what your actually debating though, and believe.

Now, I am not going to talk about all the Wannabe Trinity doctrines. There are many of them, all worded differently. We are going back to the original, where it all started.

It all came about when a guy named Arius contended that Jesus was a created being. He had a pretty large following, and was only going by the scriptures he read. Jesus was begotten, Jesus is not the Father, and Jesus and the father are listed together in many scriptures making two of them. Jesus being the lesser of them.

Folks, this is way back past 325ad, there were no bible programs and you did well to even get parts of the scripture together in one place. I think Arius did OK, for what He had to work with.

The Roman Cathloic church saw things a bit differently. They contended that Jesus was not a created being, or a lesser being.

There was a lot more to this, go google it to find all the arguements. The main thing is that Rome did not care much for what Arius was teaching.

So, in 325ad the council of Nicena came together to define Jesus. For you Anti-Trinitarians out there, the council did not make up the trinity out of the triune pagan gods that Anti-Trinitarians claim. That is nonesense. The original Trinity Doctine did not include a Triune anything, as you will see.

Original True Trinity Doctrine:

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible.And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance (ὁμοούσιον) (homoousion) with the Father; by whom all things were made both in heaven and on earth; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man; he suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.And in the Holy Ghost.But those who say: ‘There was a time when he was not;’ and ‘He was not before he was made;’ and ‘He was made out of nothing,’ or ‘He is of another substance’ or ‘essence,’ or ‘The Son of God is created,’ or ‘changeable,’ or ‘alterable’—they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church

Lets examine this. Jesus is not the Father, but came from this same God substance as the FAther. Jesus was Begotten, not created. (ummmm, no, Jesus has always been here, begotten as human through Mary though by the spoken Word) The church sort of corrects this by saying, "If anyone says there was a time when he was not" then they are burned at the stake of course, or however Rome handled those type of things back in the day.

So, Jesus is God, Not the Father, Not the Holy Spirit, Not the creator, but of the same substance as God the Father. There is your Trinity Doctrine.

Modern pure Trinity believers have changed it to say Jesus is the same Nature as God the Father, or same God classs as the Father. I found many different versions of the doctrine, some leaning toward Oneness, others keeping pure Trinity Doctrine the best possible.

Much, Much, Much later the Holy Spirit was added in the Mix in 381ad. Later still these 3 are One God. The God substance was removed, and they just become one. 3 are 1.

Purist did not like the conversion to just being one God, but still of the same substance or nature. Hence small wars break out. Many debates on the interpetation of the original doctrine.

IN 1914 a new Doctrine comes to men. It's called Oneness. This Website believers in Oneness.

Oneness doctrine states that there 1 God that manifest himself as 3, or whatever is needed. 1 is 3, not 3 is 1.

This doctrine split the Assymblies of God church in 1928. A Major split of a major denomination based on a Roman Cathloic doctrine. Real dumb if you ask me.

Later, Different camps added their own spin. You will often hear phrases like the "Eternal Godhead" or Jesus, the 2nd Person in the Trinity. Jesus is the King of Kings He is not a 2nd person of anything, the Lord of Lords.

Keep in mind that the Johannine Comma was not around when the Trinity was formed. (1 John 5:7) The first record of it was not around until much, much later, it was added because of the pressure Rome was giving around 1522.

Modelist attempt to prove Trinity in scripture and end up in the Oneness camp. Trinity can't be proven or is found in scripture. Rome wrote that, the folks that made the doctrine, but is a mystery of the Christian faith. If the folks that made the doctrine says it's not there, then I just take their word for it.

What do I believe? Jesus is the son of God, not his Father, is God like His father and has always been ther the great I am. There are two, God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ as mentioned together in over 52 scriptures. I can count folks, there are 2. Trinity never tried to defend monotheism (Belief in one God) They were defending Jesus not being a created being or less then God the Father. Modern man came along later and used the doctrine from Rome to defend the One God stance.


Don't take my word for anything, go look this up on your own. I hope you had fun reading this.

Blessings.

I don't think you quite know what you're talking about. You are mistaken about the Nicene Creed and you don't seem to realize that Modalism is not Trinitarianism--Modalists are not trying to prove the Trinity, they are Oneness.

I think if you better organized your posts, as the thoughts seem to be a bit scattered and are hard to follow, it would be easier to figure out what you're asking and what your whole point is.

 

[JLB]

Brother Mike said -

Lets examine this. Jesus is not the Father, but came from this same God substance as the FAther. Jesus was Begotten, not created. (ummmm, no, Jesus has always been here, begotten as human through Mary though by the spoken Word)

(ummmm, no, Jesus has always been here, begotten as human through Mary though by the spoken Word

Jesus was the Only Begotten of the Father, before He became flesh.

He is the Firstborn over creation, and creator of all things.


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

I don't think you quite know what you're talking about. You are mistaken about the Nicene Creed and you don't seem to realize that Modalism is not Trinitarianism--Modalists are not trying to prove the Trinity, they are Oneness.

I think if you better organized your posts, as the thoughts seem to be a bit scattered and are hard to follow, it would be easier to figure out what you're asking and what your whole point is.

The post could be better put together, no doubt. Hard to do on a tablet. There is no mistake about the Original Trinity Doctrine though. It is what it is.

Modelist are not exactly oneness, they just come off sounding like Oneness. If we had a Oneness person here, you would find they are very clear about what Trinity and Modelist and why their Oneness doctrine is supreme.

I don't have a point to make. I just posted the original Trinity Doctrine. The first put together doctrine that resembles a statement of faith many modern sites use today. Now if you know of a more earlier document, please share. I was going to quote Teturillian, but some of his views were way off, and not worth quoting. However you spell his name.

 

[Brother Mike]

Jesus was the Only Begotten of the Father, before He became flesh.

He is the Firstborn over creation, and creator of all things.


JLB

I contest that Jesus has always been here, and the only begotten came when the Word was made flesh and came to pass in Mary's belly.

The first Begotten of the dead means He was raised first, we are second and 3rd begotten down the line.

 

[Free]

The post could be better put together, no doubt. Hard to do on a tablet. There is no mistake about the Original Trinity Doctrine though. It is what it is.

Modelist are not exactly oneness, they just come off sounding like Oneness. If we had a Oneness person here, you would find they are very clear about what Trinity and Modelist and why their Oneness doctrine is supreme.

I don't have a point to make. I just posted the original Trinity Doctrine. The first put together doctrine that resembles a statement of faith many modern sites use today. Now if you know of a more earlier document, please share. I was going to quote Teturillian, but some of his views were way off, and not worth quoting. However you spell his name.

Firstly, it's "modalist" not "modelist". Second, the Nicene Creed is no different than what is believed today by trinitarians. Of course the main reason for the creed was to give a proper Christology in contrast to the error that Arius taught. Thirdly, Oneness is a form of Modalism; they are nearly identical.

The Bible is abundantly clear: that within the one Being that is God, there is coexists three coeternal, coequal Persons. That is the Trinity and there is nothing there that disagrees with the Nicene Creed.

 

[Brother Mike]

Firstly, it's "modalist" not "modelist". Second, the Nicene Creed is no different than what is believed today by trinitarians. Of course the main reason for the creed was to give a proper Christology in contrast to the error that Arius taught. Thirdly, Oneness is a form of Modalism; they are nearly identical.

The Bible is abundantly clear: that within the one Being that is God, there is coexists three coeternal, coequal Persons. That is the Trinity and there is nothing there that disagrees with the Nicene Creed.

Already stated, on a tablet, so spelling is a hit or miss, a real pain to go back and correct something. Thank you for the spelling lessen anyway.

Your stating another modern version of what someone called Trinity Doctrine. The real and original did not included the Holy Spirit, or call the 3 in One God. Jesus is of the same substance as the Father. The real Trinity Doctrine did not attempt to prove Monotheism either, was not about that.

The bible is not abundandantly clear that There is a God with 3 beings stuck inside a casing called God. Is the God part like a casing or something with Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and Father cramped inside?

You did not find Trinity in Scriptures, because the church authors of the Doctrine said it's not found in Scripture. How do you know more than those that made up the Doctrine? How's that possible?

And since your a Moderator now, and buy into the Cathloic Trinity Doctrine which I don't mind, just keep it real is all.

The Website you moderate does not even Believe in the Trinity. Don't you think you should at least as a Moderator comform to the Website belief? I know I would, or not say a thing about it.

We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

That is Hard core Apostolic Oneness Free.

Free, we have been over this in another thread for pages, It ends the same unless your willing to examine what the Doctrine is, and why you believe it. I am not against the Doctrine, I am Aganst the new versions of it. (Most anyway) I can't stand Oneness Doctrine. One God that becomes 3.

Read the Original again, the 3 that becomes one and is a mystery of the Christain faith came much latter. Check it out.

This thread is about the original Doctrine, not the many different versions of it out there.

 

[Malachi]

Brother Mike,
It would appear that you really do not believe that God is three Divine Persons, yet One God. That can be extremely problematic for a Christian.

God never said a word about Trinity.

You said this, but you forgot Matthew 28:19 -- "...the Name [singular] of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit".

There is no Triune anything

You said this, but forgot 1 John 5:7 -- "For there are THREE that bare record in Heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are ONE". (This verse has been attacked by modern "scholars", and expunged from the modern bible versions, but it is surely the Word of God, and there is ample textual support for it).

We can forget about all the Creeds and Confessions and the Roman Catholic Church to establish Bible truth. There are scores of Scripture verses which will confirm that the one true and living God is also:

God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Ghost.
​

This is a Divine Mystery -- "the Mystery of God" (Col 2:2; Rev 10:7).

 

[Brother Mike]

Brother Mike,
It would appear that you really do not believe that God is three Divine Persons, yet One God. That can be extremely problematic for a Christian.


You said this, but you forgot Matthew 28:19 -- "...the Name [singular] of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit".


You said this, but forgot 1 John 5:7 -- "For there are THREE that bare record in Heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are ONE". (This verse has been attacked by modern "scholars", and expunged from the modern bible versions, but it is surely the Word of God, and there is ample textual support for it).

We can forget about all the Creeds and Confessions and the Roman Catholic Church to establish Bible truth. There are scores of Scripture verses which will confirm that the one true and living God is also:

God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Ghost.
​

This is a Divine Mystery -- "the Mystery of God" (Col 2:2; Rev 10:7).

Greetings Malachi. I buy into the original Trinity Doctrine somewhat, except the part about having to be part of the Roman Catholic Church. Jesus is the Same substance as the Father, both God. Trinity believes there are 3 persons, so I get that far and see it in many scriptures. I don't buy into the latter added Mystery of Christian faith where all 3 become 1 God though. That was not in the Original, but added much later.

The Trinity Concept came from Rome, now if you want to bring in another concept then fine.

I did not forget 1 John 5:7. I mentioned it above in the OP, the Johannine Comma.

However, to say the One true God is the Father, The Son, and the Holy Ghost is a Modalist statement, not a Trinity Statement. You reversed the Order.

I also did not say there is not One True and Only Lord God. I said that above, and keep the Trinity belief that Jesus the Son of God is not the Father, Not the Creator. As I said, I don't buy into the 3 become 1 part of the more Modern versions of the Doctrine (Some of them, some use of the same nature, depending on the denomination you read it)

I have no issues with 1 John 5:7 though I believe it to be a forgery. Husband and wife are one flesh, that is also a mystery, so no reason to pull hairs over it.

My Statement is that this Triune God is not found in Scriptures. You have to assume it's there in scriptures, much like most doctrines do. I also question how valid it is because of the massive influence to believe in some form of Monotheism Doctrine. It's been on us everywhere we go. How does that effect us?

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

So, The Father God calling his Son God. How many God's is that Malachi?

If there is One God, then who is the advocate?

That is the mystery part of the Trinity Doctrine, and It's much simpler to say The Father God and the Lord Jesus Christ........ I count two.

How many Paul counting here?

For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
(1Co 8:5-6)

1+1 is what?

Jesus said I and the Father are one, if you seen me, you seen the Father. Jesus makes no qualms about being equal with the Father, and representing the Father. The same Jesus also said we are One in Him. Well, that don't make us God the Father.

These are Oneness debates and easy to squash, Like Jesus is the Word part of God, the Word made flesh, as God incarnate...... Oneness talk. Oneness is way out there, and them folks are strange anyway.

Blessings Malachi, thank you for reading and taking the time to post.

 

[WIP]

Answer:The most difficult thing about the Christian concept of the Trinity is that there is no way to perfectly and completely understand it. The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain. God is infinitely greater than we are; therefore, we should not expect to be able to fully understand Him. The Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also teaches that there is only one God. Though we can understand some facts about the relationship of the different Persons of the Trinity to one another, ultimately, it is incomprehensible to the human mind. However, this does not mean the Trinity is not true or that it is not based on the teachings of the Bible.

 

[Free]

Already stated, on a tablet, so spelling is a hit or miss, a real pain to go back and correct something. Thank you for the spelling lessen anyway.

You're welcome. You may want to change it in your blog as well.

Your stating another modern version of what someone called Trinity Doctrine. The real and original did not included the Holy Spirit, or call the 3 in One God. Jesus is of the same substance as the Father. The real Trinity Doctrine did not attempt to prove Monotheism either, was not about that.

What I stated is no different than what the Nicene Creed states. Monotheism is a given and it doesn't need to be proven, although it can be.

The bible is not abundandantly clear that There is a God with 3 beings stuck inside a casing called God. Is the God part like a casing or something with Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and Father cramped inside?

No, that is not even close to what I said. You'll have to go back and reread what I posted.

You did not find Trinity in Scriptures, because the church authors of the Doctrine said it's not found in Scripture. How do you know more than those that made up the Doctrine? How's that possible?

You're contradicting yourself. This whole thread is about the "original Trinity" for which you have submitted the Nicene Creed as evidence and several passages of Scripture. The Nicene Creed is a brief summary of what Scripture states regarding the nature of God. That's the whole point of the creed. If the idea of the Trinity is not found in Scripture, then it needs to be abandoned immediately.

You're arguing that it isn't in Scripture but giving evidence that it is in Scripture. So which is it?

And since your a Moderator now, and buy into the Cathloic Trinity Doctrine which I don't mind, just keep it real is all.

The Website you moderate does not even Believe in the Trinity. Don't you think you should at least as a Moderator comform to the Website belief? I know I would, or not say a thing about it.

We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

That is Hard core Apostolic Oneness Free.

The site belief is very much Trinitarian and that statement is meant to convey that but is not worded correctly.

Free, we have been over this in another thread for pages, It ends the same unless your willing to examine what the Doctrine is, and why you believe it.

I have examined it and know why I believe it--because it best fits what Scripture reveals to us.

I am not against the Doctrine, I am Aganst the new versions of it. (Most anyway) .

And yet what I have given is no different than the Nicene Creed.

I can't stand Oneness Doctrine. One God that becomes 3.

Which is Oneness, not Trinitarianism.

Read the Original again, the 3 that becomes one and is a mystery of the Christain faith came much latter. Check it out.

This thread is about the original Doctrine, not the many different versions of it out there.

The "original" agrees with what I have stated.

 

[Brother Mike]

You're welcome. You may want to change it in your blog as well.


What I stated is no different than what the Nicene Creed states. Monotheism is a given and it doesn't need to be proven, although it can be.


No, that is not even close to what I said. You'll have to go back and reread what I posted.


You're contradicting yourself. This whole thread is about the "original Trinity" for which you have submitted the Nicene Creed as evidence and several passages of Scripture. The Nicene Creed is a brief summary of what Scripture states regarding the nature of God. That's the whole point of the creed. If the idea of the Trinity is not found in Scripture, then it needs to be abandoned immediately.

You're arguing that it isn't in Scripture but giving evidence that it is in Scripture. So which is it?


The site belief is very much Trinitarian and that statement is meant to convey that but is not worded correctly.


I have examined it and know why I believe it--because it best fits what Scripture reveals to us.


And yet what I have given is no different than the Nicene Creed.


Which is Oneness, not Trinitarianism.


The "original" agrees with what I have stated.

I did not say Trinity is not found in scripture, the folks that made the Doctrine said it's not found in Scipture. I can give you the references if you like.

So, to take a old doctrine, by which the folks that made the doctrine say it's not found in scripture, and then to embrace that doctrine based on being programed to do so by years of changing the original around is pretty silly.

I am not sure how the site TOS can be Trinity when the statement is very clearly Oneness, by all definitions. It almost mimics the Oneness creed.

Which makes my other point, folks that think they are Trinitiarian, have no idea what it is, or what they believe. They just say what they have heard from others. A real Trinitarian hates the Oneness doctrine and would have never worded the the Statement of faith that way. NEVER.

My point is made.

I am not here to put down the Trinity Doctrine. The Doctrine is fine as it is. It's the latter added stuff by others that changed Jesus being the same nature of God and making them all ONE GOD. That was not in the Original.

Now if you want to defend one of the many modified versions of the Original, then go right ahead. There are still large groups of folks that Hold to the Original.

Jesus is of the same nature as God the Father, Not the Father, but God. They are as one.

That is a bit different than saying there is only one God and removing the Advocate as it takes two to mediate and that is also Scripture, it takes TWO, not ONE.

It's modern doctrines that use Trinity to defend their belief in Monotheism. That was not the point at all, of the Original doctrine.

Go right ahead and believe what version you want. My post is about the first and Original Doctrine.

If you say there is only ONE, then 52 scriptures say you can't count. I believe you can, you just need to get the reliegion out of your way.

 

[tim-from-pa]

I seem to believe that the Father and Son are family. God spoke (the Word) in which creation came from nothingness, thus Christ being the agent who created everything, and then later will bring many sons to glory. So maybe instead of a Trinity we should be talking about a "milleniality" or more that will be one day.

So, the father is YHWH (or to put it another way, the family name) and Christ is Yeshua. I never heard of a Hebrew name for the Spirit other than that's God's power. There's some who protest that the Spirit is personified, but so is Wisdom in Proverbs, and so are the seven Spirits of God in Isaiah. Does that mean there's 7 Holy Spirit guys walking around up there? I can only accept it as a separate entity if there's a proper name for it. Right now I count only 2. This does not mean I don't believe in the Spirit of God and its awesome power. I merely see the nature differently.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son. And of the Holy Ghost,
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

What of the Holy Ghost? Teaching them to observe, etc. That's the power of God the way he does so.

 

[Free]

I did not say Trinity is not found in scripture, the folks that made the Doctrine said it's not found in Scipture. I can give you the references if you like.

Yes, please provide references because that makes no sense. If the doctrine isn't found in Scripture, then it needs to be abandoned.

So, to take a old doctrine, by which the folks that made the doctrine say it's not found in scripture, and then to embrace that doctrine based on being programed to do so by years of changing the original around is pretty silly.

That would be silly if that was the case, but it likely isn't. Doctrines are formed based on what Scripture states, so to form a doctrine and say that it's not found in Scripture is nonsense.

I am not sure how the site TOS can be Trinity when the statement is very clearly Oneness, by all definitions. It almost mimics the Oneness creed.

Which makes my other point, folks that think they are Trinitiarian, have no idea what it is, or what they believe. They just say what they have heard from others. A real Trinitarian hates the Oneness doctrine and would have never worded the the Statement of faith that way. NEVER.

My point is made.

Well the site belief is very Trinitarian. The fact that it is not worded correctly in no way whatsoever means that whomever wrote it is not a "real Trinitarian."

I am not here to put down the Trinity Doctrine. The Doctrine is fine as it is. It's the latter added stuff by others that changed Jesus being the same nature of God and making them all ONE GOD. That was not in the Original.

Being of the same substance means that they are of the same nature. If Jesus is God and the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God, then they all have the same nature. It makes no sense to say that they are all God but have different natures.

And that they are one God goes without saying as Christianity is a monotheistic religion.

Now if you want to defend one of the many modified versions of the Original, then go right ahead. There are still large groups of folks that Hold to the Original.

Jesus is of the same nature as God the Father, Not the Father, but God. They are as one.

That is a bit different than saying there is only one God and removing the Advocate as it takes two to mediate and that is also Scripture, it takes TWO, not ONE.

It's modern doctrines that use Trinity to defend their belief in Monotheism. That was not the point at all, of the Original doctrine.

Go right ahead and believe what version you want. My post is about the first and Original Doctrine.

If you say there is only ONE, then 52 scriptures say you can't count. I believe you can, you just need to get the reliegion out of your way.

I don't understand any of what you are saying here. Please clarify.

 

[elijah23]

The Lord is simultaneously a Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, just as a man can simultaneously be a father, son, and motorcycle cop.

 

[Brother Mike]

I seem to believe that the Father and Son are family. God spoke (the Word) in which creation came from nothingness, thus Christ being the agent who created everything, and then later will bring many sons to glory. So maybe instead of a Trinity we should be talking about a "milleniality" or more that will be one day.

So, the father is YHWH (or to put it another way, the family name) and Christ is Yeshua. I never heard of a Hebrew name for the Spirit other than that's God's power. There's some who protest that the Spirit is personified, but so is Wisdom in Proverbs, and so are the seven Spirits of God in Isaiah. Does that mean there's 7 Holy Spirit guys walking around up there? I can only accept it as a separate entity if there's a proper name for it. Right now I count only 2. This does not mean I don't believe in the Spirit of God and its awesome power. I merely see the nature differently.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son. And of the Holy Ghost,
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

What of the Holy Ghost? Teaching them to observe, etc. That's the power of God the way he does so.

Thank you for sharing tim-from-pa. God created everything out of a real substance called faith, by which he framed the Worlds. Heb 11:1-4. Not correcting you, just saying.

You Mention the Holy Spirit, but the Original Trinity Doctrine makes no mention of His nature, so we don't leave him out, but He was dragged into it in 381ad in a revised new edition of the Trinity Doctrine.

The Holy Spirit does not speak on His own, but only things He hears. By the definition of Theos, He is in the god class, but God always has taken ownership of Him as His Spirit.
He is not the Father, or anything Remotely like the Father in make up. He would speak His own things if he were. He is our connection to the Father.

Eph 2:18 kjva For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

So, the Holy Spirit is not part of the One God system, but through the Holy Spirit we have constant access to the Father.

We need lots more understanding on this subject.

Yes, please provide references because that makes no sense. If the doctrine isn't found in Scripture, then it needs to be abandoned.


That would be silly if that was the case, but it likely isn't. Doctrines are formed based on what Scripture states, so to form a doctrine and say that it's not found in Scripture is nonsense.


Well the site belief is very Trinitarian. The fact that it is not worded correctly in no way whatsoever means that whomever wrote it is not a "real Trinitarian."


Being of the same substance means that they are of the same nature. If Jesus is God and the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God, then they all have the same nature. It makes no sense to say that they are all God but have different natures.

And that they are one God goes without saying as Christianity is a monotheistic religion.


I don't understand any of what you are saying here. Please clarify.

In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together....The Vatican Council has explained the meaning to be attributed to the term mystery in theology. It lays down that a mystery is a truth which we are not merely incapable of discovering apart from Divine Revelation, but which, even when revealed, remains “hidden by the veil of faith and enveloped, so to speak, by a kind of darkness” (Const., "De fide. cath.", iv). (Joyce G.H. The Blessed Trinity. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XV Copyright © 1912 by Robert Appleton Company Online Edition Copyright © 2003 by K. Knight)

Martin Luthor:
It is indeed true that the name "Trinity" is nowhere to be found in the Holy Scriptures, but has been conceived and invented by man. (Luther Martin. The Sermons of Martin Luther, Church Postil, 1522; III:406-421, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
That Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, three distinct persons in one divine essence and nature, are one God, who has created heaven and earth...Concerning these articles there is no contention or dispute, since we on both sides confess them. Therefore it is not necessary now to treat further of them. (Luther Martin. The Smallclad Papers. 1537. Translated by F. Bente and W. H. T. Dau Published in: _Triglot Concordia: The Symbolical Books of the Ev. Lutheran Church_. (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1921), pp. 453-529).

I can dig up More free, but the Originating church says in more than many places it's not a doctrine found in scripture, but it is the Mystery of the Christian Faith.

Martin Luthur said it's not there, but both sides believe it, why mess with it?

The foks that made the Doctrine tell you it's not scriptural!!!! Like a lot of other things Cathloics practice.

So, I was not the one that said the Doctrine was not found in Scriptures, the folks that made up the Doctrine said that. The Doctrine is very loosly based on Scriptures for what they had in 325ad. Jesus is the of the same nature as the Father is perfectly right. Even we are created in the image of God. And are even as he is now in this World, and will be exactly like him at his appearing. John said that. That don't make us God the Father though or part of a One God system.

Also, the person that made the Statement can't be Trinitarian, quoting the exact term Oneness use. It's like saying I am a car Mechanic, but I can't find the engine in the cars, where is it located?

You keep bringing up Monotheism, but Using Trinity is not the best way to go that route.

There can't be just One Free. They can be as One, be One like the flesh of Husband and wife. Be one as we are one in them.

Not just ONE God though and thats it. You can't remove the advocate, the two thrones, and the fact Jesus is the Son of God, came in the flesh. Not God the Father coming in flesh, that is also in John. We just don't take one away because we want to believe in some Monotheism based on Nothing.

Once again for all that joined, I am not against the Original Trinity Doctrine, not JW or Mormon.

Free, I know you examine things, I know you will change and come to the right things that are true. It's one reason I am here, because I don't know everything.

 

[Brother Mike]

The Lord is simultaneously a Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, just as a man can simultaneously be a father, son, and motorcycle cop.

That is a Oneness Arguement. A Father can be a Son, can be a Father. A Son can also be a Father, and Son.

A Son can't be His own Father though. I was hoping to keep the Oneness folks out of the thread, it presents a whole other list of issues.