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The Saint and the Sinner

netchaplain

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There is no Scriptural language that relates a saint as a sinner, because believers are “not in the flesh” (Ro 8:9), that is, they are no longer after or desirous of the old man or sin nature. Though the old man is ever opposing God’s will in us (Gal 5:17), and that “it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be” (Rom 8:7), God ensures that the desire and will of those reborn will always be that which is of “His good pleasure” (Phl 2:13); and it’s not as though a believer could ever overpower God’s will to prevent this “work” in them if they have sincerely chosen to be right with Him! The purpose of the “work” is to “keep you from falling” (Jde 1:24). Believers will realize the difference concerning their sins before and after rebirth, in that the degree of decadence and the frequency of the sins are in a progression of lessor capacities, as the Spirit using the new nature from the Lord Jesus (Eph 3:16) guides and enables them to continue to “be conformed to the image of His Son” (Ro 8:29).

The clay can never have power over the Potter, and when asked to be made according to His will and pleasure, it cannot be overcome—unless the Potter can be overpowered by the clay (Rom 9:21). Rebirth always manifests permanently yielding all to God! Though the sin nature remains indwelt in the saint (Ro 7:17, 20), his heart and mind will never again be in it.

Just as the Word of God must be “spiritually discerned” (1Co 2:14) in order to establish salvation, so must it in like manner be apprehended in order to establish growth from salvation; as the saved needs continual deliverance from the old man’s opposition. This initially involves an adequate knowledge of Scripture, especially the Epistles, where the majority of spiritual growth in Christ’s image rests. The more of this NT growth supply is accessed, the more those reborn come to know the teachings of the precious Holy Spirit apart from man’s teachings (1Co 2:13).

The very reason why Scripture is often difficult to sufficiently discern pertaining to certain passages (mostly the Pauline spiritual growth truths) is for the purpose of requiring sincere and persistent exercise of repetitious reading and study. This accommodates the believer in keeping the mind on God while through prayer seeking His guidance. Those who profess to be reborn will know for certain if they are, because “The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God” (Rom 8:16).

There are many scriptural passages that appear to refute the teaching of permanent rebirth, but none actually do so. In my opinion they exist in Scripture in the difficult way they read for the sake of causing the believer to maintain a continuously sincere study search and progression of adequate understanding if the Scriptures (esp. the NT Epistles). Myself, I’ve found more consistent accuracy with Biblical truths of the NT among commenters (e.g. J Gill, A Barnes, etc.) that were within the 1600-1800’s than in any other time frame, probably due to the advantage of less prevalence of non-biblical teachings that have developed within the last century or so. All Scriptural passages that seem to covey the concept that one who is reborn can be lost are welcome to be presented and we can “reason together” (as much as we can for those willing) with God’s guidance in His “Word of Truth” (Psa 119:43; 2Co 6:7; Eph 1:13; 2Ti 2:15; Jas 1:18).

To the Father be the glory by the Life of His Son in the saint through Their precious Holy Spirit in the saint!
 

Hopeful

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There is no Scriptural language that relates a saint as a sinner, because believers are “not in the flesh” (Ro 8:9), that is, they are no longer after or desirous of the old man or sin nature.
Though the old man is ever opposing God’s will in us (Gal 5:17),
How is that possible, as the old man was killed at its crucifixion with Christ?
Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
and that “it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be” (Rom 8:7), God ensures that the desire and will of those reborn will always be that which is of “His good pleasure” (Phl 2:13); and it’s not as though a believer could ever overpower God’s will to prevent this “work” in them if they have sincerely chosen to be right with Him! The purpose of the “work” is to “keep you from falling” (Jde 1:24). Believers will realize the difference concerning their sins before and after rebirth, in that the degree of decadence and the frequency of the sins are in a progression of lessor capacities, as the Spirit using the new nature from the Lord Jesus (Eph 3:16) guides and enables them to continue to “be conformed to the image of His Son” (Ro 8:29).

The clay can never have power over the Potter, and when asked to be made according to His will and pleasure, it cannot be overcome—unless the Potter can be overpowered by the clay (Rom 9:21). Rebirth always manifests permanently yielding all to God! Though the sin nature remains indwelt in the saint (Ro 7:17, 20), his heart and mind will never again be in it.

Just as the Word of God must be “spiritually discerned” (1Co 2:14) in order to establish salvation, so must it in like manner be apprehended in order to establish growth from salvation; as the saved needs continual deliverance from the old man’s opposition. This initially involves an adequate knowledge of Scripture, especially the Epistles, where the majority of spiritual growth in Christ’s image rests. The more of this NT growth supply is accessed, the more those reborn come to know the teachings of the precious Holy Spirit apart from man’s teachings (1Co 2:13).

The very reason why Scripture is often difficult to sufficiently discern pertaining to certain passages (mostly the Pauline spiritual growth truths) is for the purpose of requiring sincere and persistent exercise of repetitious reading and study. This accommodates the believer in keeping the mind on God while through prayer seeking His guidance. Those who profess to be reborn will know for certain if they are, because “The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God” (Rom 8:16).

There are many scriptural passages that appear to refute the teaching of permanent rebirth, but none actually do so. In my opinion they exist in Scripture in the difficult way they read for the sake of causing the believer to maintain a continuously sincere study search and progression of adequate understanding if the Scriptures (esp. the NT Epistles). Myself, I’ve found more consistent accuracy with Biblical truths of the NT among commenters (e.g. J Gill, A Barnes, etc.) that were within the 1600-1800’s than in any other time frame, probably due to the advantage of less prevalence of non-biblical teachings that have developed within the last century or so. All Scriptural passages that seem to covey the concept that one who is reborn can be lost are welcome to be presented and we can “reason together” (as much as we can for those willing) with God’s guidance in His “Word of Truth” (Psa 119:43; 2Co 6:7; Eph 1:13; 2Ti 2:15; Jas 1:18).

To the Father be the glory by the Life of His Son in the saint through Their precious Holy Spirit in the saint!
 

netchaplain

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How is that possible, as the old man was killed at its crucifixion with Christ?
Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
You make an understandable point, considering the way this passage reads! The point of crucifixion has more to do with impaling or binding rather than killing or death, for the sake of suffering. For the old man or sin nature, it's all about destroying its power to cause us to want to sin, i.e. "serve sin," as the text displays. The goal isn't to remove the evil but to render it restrained on the Cross so it cannot work in us anymore to will or desire to sin.

The "dominion" (Ro 6:14) the old man has over those who are unregenerate (unsaved) is that it still causes them to willfully sin, unlike the sin of the saints which are no longer willful. I we continue to sin willfully after discovering what salvation is, it manifests that we did not accept salvation (Heb 10:26), but merely just have the knowledge of it.
 

Hopeful

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You make an understandable point, considering the way this passage reads! The point of crucifixion has more to do with impaling or binding rather than killing or death, for the sake of suffering.
Derail.
For the old man or sin nature, it's all about destroying its power to cause us to want to sin, i.e. "serve sin," as the text displays. The goal isn't to remove the evil but to render it restrained on the Cross so it cannot work in us anymore to will or desire to sin.
Your point is misguided, in the light of scripture saying they are destroyed.
Gal 5:24..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
The "dominion" (Ro 6:14) the old man has over those who are unregenerate (unsaved) is that it still causes them to willfully sin, unlike the sin of the saints which are no longer willful. I we continue to sin willfully after discovering what salvation is, it manifests that we did not accept salvation (Heb 10:26), but merely just have the knowledge of it.
If they sin, they aren't saints.
They are servants of sin.
Have you never heard of living without sin?
 

Blade

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Saint and sinner. "We know that our old self [our human nature without the Holy Spirit] was nailed to the cross with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin. For the person who has died [with Christ] has been freed from [the power of] sin."

I don't always use the AMP but I like it here. Not here to tell anyone what GODS words is really saying only what I see and believe. What I know is there is within me a battle always raging. When Christ found me something NEW was created. Why we must always put on that new man which after God was created in righteousness and true holiness. I can only speak for me and when I look in that mirror I just see me. Even talking to the lord ..this is within the same ball park lol. Told him my heart convicts me 27/7 of sin. That is sin I am doing..sin I read I have been freed, no longer a slave to yet sure seems as if I am lol. What did He say about that? He just asked me what is "righteousness" I said right standing with God. He asked "How do you get righteousness? I said by believing in Jesus. What was so so so wonderful was.. like right after I said "by believing in Jesus"... I saw for the first time. I could not stop crying.

So as our bother said.. its no longer I that sin but sin that is in me.. me being this flesh that has not been changed...yet. It still LOVES to sin.. I am no longer slave to it. Its not what I DO.. its what Christ did. So am I a sinner? No I know Jesus Christ as lord and what He made new can not ever sin.
 

Hopeful

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Saint and sinner. "We know that our old self [our human nature without the Holy Spirit] was nailed to the cross with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin. For the person who has died [with Christ] has been freed from [the power of] sin."

I don't always use the AMP but I like it here. Not here to tell anyone what GODS words is really saying only what I see and believe. What I know is there is within me a battle always raging. When Christ found me something NEW was created. Why we must always put on that new man which after God was created in righteousness and true holiness. I can only speak for me and when I look in that mirror I just see me. Even talking to the lord ..this is within the same ball park lol. Told him my heart convicts me 27/7 of sin. That is sin I am doing..sin I read I have been freed, no longer a slave to yet sure seems as if I am lol. What did He say about that? He just asked me what is "righteousness" I said right standing with God. He asked "How do you get righteousness? I said by believing in Jesus. What was so so so wonderful was.. like right after I said "by believing in Jesus"... I saw for the first time. I could not stop crying.

So as our bother said.. its no longer I that sin but sin that is in me.. me being this flesh that has not been changed...yet. It still LOVES to sin.. I am no longer slave to it. Its not what I DO.. its what Christ did. So am I a sinner? No I know Jesus Christ as lord and what He made new can not ever sin.
Paul's laments in Rom 7 were of his old life in the flesh.
Not of his post-conversion life in the Spirit.
As Paul pointed out in Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
Your "old flesh" has been destroyed.
Gal 5:24 adds this..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
No flesh, no vile affections, no lusts,...no sin.
 

netchaplain

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the light of scripture saying they are destroyed.
Gal 5:24..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
"The flesh" in Gal 2:24 isn't the physical body but the sin nature, i.e. "old man." Strong's G4561 - sarx IV. the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God (https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g4561/kjv/tr/0-1/).

This sin nature is a "body of sin" with its "members" (Col 3:5) and is "mortified" in us by the Spirit (Rom 8:13). The "destruction" of the old man has to do with nullifying its damning power and power of "dominion," not its being in us. To willfully sin manifests one is yet to be reborn and is the meaning of "serving sin." Those who are reborn do not serve sin, that is, do not desire to sin, even though it can't be avoided. So, the issue isn't not sinning but not "sinning willfully" (Heb 10:26). I think it stands to reason that the old man would have to be removed in order to avoid sin, which will not occur until we leave here.

True believers desire God's good pleasure, because He continually "works" this in us (Phl 2:13).
 

Hopeful

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"The flesh" in Gal 2:24 isn't the physical body but the sin nature, i.e. "old man." Strong's G4561 - sarx IV. the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God (https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g4561/kjv/tr/0-1/).

This sin nature is a "body of sin" with its "members" (Col 3:5) and is "mortified" in us by the Spirit (Rom 8:13). The "destruction" of the old man has to do with nullifying its damning power and power of "dominion," not its being in us. To willfully sin manifests one is yet to be reborn and is the meaning of "serving sin." Those who are reborn do not serve sin, that is, do not desire to sin, even though it can't be avoided. So, the issue isn't not sinning but not "sinning willfully" (Heb 10:26). I think it stands to reason that the old man would have to be removed in order to avoid sin, which will not occur until we leave here.

True believers desire God's good pleasure, because He continually "works" this in us (Phl 2:13).
You have provided both the excuse and outcome of your "belief".
"The flesh isn't really dead, and sin is still unavoidable".
Both those ideas are nullified by the scriptures I provided earlier.
The issue is "not sinning".
 

netchaplain

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You have provided both the excuse and outcome of your "belief".
"The flesh isn't really dead, and sin is still unavoidable".
Both those ideas are nullified by the scriptures I provided earlier.
The issue is "not sinning".
I understand why some Christians believe this way, considering the way it reads.

God bless!
 

netchaplain

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Your ID says you are a Christian, so why don't you believe it "the way it reads"?
Reasonable comment, but we don't want to treat the Scriptures as all other sources (also not suspecting you here), in that God wants believers to continue to seek His guidance in them by prayer, reading and continually rereading them as the Spirit increases our understanding. The more we are in the Scriptures, the deeper we will understand the teachings.
 

Hopeful

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Reasonable comment, but we don't want to treat the Scriptures as all other sources (also not suspecting you here), in that God wants believers to continue to seek His guidance in them by prayer, reading and continually rereading them as the Spirit increases our understanding. The more we are in the Scriptures, the deeper we will understand the teachings.
Then please keep reading and praying.
 
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