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The soul of man

OzSpen

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Are you sure Eccl 3:21 is God teaching the immortality of unbelievers?

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 (LEB) For the fate of humans and the fate of the beast is the same. The death of the one is like the death of the other, for both are mortal. Man has no advantage over the beast, for both are fleeting. Both go to one place—both came from dust and both return to dust.

Are you saying Eccl 3:19-20 (LEB) is contradictory with Eccl 12:7 (ESV)?

Eccl 3:19-20 (ESV) reads:

19 For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.​

This demonstrates that both human beings and beasts have bodies and when the last breath leaves them both, the bodies return to dust. This is not the same as the teaching presented in Eccl 12:7 (ESV), 'and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it'.

This latter verse demonstrates that human beings have two parts, body and spirit. However Eccl 3:19-20 (ESV) refers to only one of these parts that returns to dust - the body - and that applies to both beasts and human beings.

You ask: 'Are you sure Eccl 3:21 is God teaching the immortality of unbelievers?' Here you go with plucking one verse (proof-texting) again. To gain a view of the nature of human beings in the Book of Ecclesiastes, we look at the entire book. We find that Eccles 12:7 demonstrates that human beings are bi-partitite (i.e. body and spirit) and that beasts and human beings have a body that returns to dust at death (Eccl 3:19-20).

Edited by staff.

Oz
 
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chessman

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Please parse the verb and give us the meaning, based on the parsing.
I have. I am aware that it is sometimes translated as "ruin", if that's the point you are trying to get to. Looking at the "ruins" of wicked mankind after the flood or the wicked of Sodom would be the best Biblical example (see 2 Peter or Jude) of what it means to apollumi the lost. That's my point. God saves whom He saves and the lost are destroyed (ruined).

Please post what Scripture leads you to the conclusion that the lost derive immortality the same as the saved do.

Are you saying Eccl 3:19-20 (LEB) is contradictory with Eccl 12:7 (ESV)?
No. I am saying Eccl 12:7 is not speaking of the immortality of mankind but Eccl 3:19 is.
And it says man (without Christ of course) is mortal, clearly:

Ecclesiastes 3:19 (LEB) For the fate of humans and the fate of the beast is the same. The death of the one is like the death of the other, for both are mortal. Man has no advantage over the beast, for both are fleeting.

In fact, all things are mortal/vanity without Christ. Including the lost.
This latter verse demonstrates that human beings have two parts, body and spirit.
Okay, I agree. How many times do I need to agree with you on this point???
I disagreed with you on one (and only one) very specific point. You claimed 2 Tim teaches that both the lost and the save derive their immortality from Christ. I think it pretty clearly teaches that only the saved derive their immortality from Christ. Which is consitent with the rest of Scripture too.

If the lost derive their immortality from Christ, what Scripture teaches it? If you can find and post one, and it actually does say that (or even clearly implies it) I'll have to change my view I guess.

This should not be overly complicated.
 

chessman

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look at the entire book. We find that Eccles 12:7 demonstrates that human beings are bi-partitite (i.e. body and spirit) and that beasts and human beings have a body that returns to dust at death (Eccl 3:19-20).
I have looked at the entire Book. I found no proof in it for your claim that the lost derive immortality through Christ. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Mark 8:35 (AMP) For whoever wishes to save his life in this world will eventually lose it through death, but whoever loses his life in this world for My sake and the gospel’s will save it from the consequences of sin and separation from God.
 

freewill

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The tree of life gives infinitely more than just fruit for the body Jim, if you can't see that then you must be in a bad way.

Where in scripture does it say that?
I don't see it because it does not make sense.

I am sorry about that, it make perfect sense to me.

The soul does not need to eat; the body does.
The fruit was given to man as food; the soul, not being physical, doesn't need physical food.

For Adam to have lived forever, his body soul and spirit would have needed spiritual food which only the infinite God could have given, and Adam would have received this through first eating from the tree of life had he not given into temptation and believed the lie of Satan.

God alone is immortal, not man, not his soul, not his worldly spirit, but God alone is immortal as
1 Timothy 6:15-16 NIV explains, does that make sense? … or would you prefer to alter the meaning of God's instruction here as well?


I will address the parable of the rich man and Lazarus later.
 

OzSpen

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I have. I am aware that it is sometimes translated as "ruin", if that's the point you are trying to get to. Looking at the "ruins" of wicked mankind after the flood or the wicked of Sodom would be the best Biblical example (see 2 Peter or Jude) of what it means to apollumi the lost. That's my point. God saves whom He saves and the lost are destroyed (ruined).

Please post what Scripture leads you to the conclusion that the lost derive immortality the same as the saved do.


No. I am saying Eccl 12:7 is not speaking of the immortality of mankind but Eccl 3:19 is.
And it says man (without Christ of course) is mortal, clearly:

Ecclesiastes 3:19 (LEB) For the fate of humans and the fate of the beast is the same. The death of the one is like the death of the other, for both are mortal. Man has no advantage over the beast, for both are fleeting.

In fact, all things are mortal/vanity without Christ. Including the lost.

Okay, I agree. How many times do I need to agree with you on this point???
I disagreed with you on one (and only one) very specific point. You claimed 2 Tim teaches that both the lost and the save derive their immortality from Christ. I think it pretty clearly teaches that only the saved derive their immortality from Christ. Which is consitent with the rest of Scripture too.

If the lost derive their immortality from Christ, what Scripture teaches it? If you can find and post one, and it actually does say that (or even clearly implies it) I'll have to change my view I guess.

This should not be overly complicated.

You stated:
It means to destroy in English.

apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely(note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).

http://biblehub.com/greek/622.htm

That is NOT parsing the Greek verb, ἀπολέσαι.

I asked you to please tell me the meaning of the Greek, ἀπολέσαι, in Matt 10:28 (SBLGNT). You have not done that. You have copied and pasted from Bible Hub, but that does not include the parsing of the Greek ἀπολέσαι.

Seems as though you do not know how to parse a Greek verb.

Do you read Koine Greek and know how to parse its many parts of speech?

Oz
 

OzSpen

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[QUOTE="freewill, post: 1250938, member: 9795"
God alone is immortal, not man, not his soul, not his worldly spirit, but God alone is immortal as1 Timothy 6:15-16 NIV explains, does that make sense? … or would you prefer to alter the meaning of God's instruction here as well?[/QUOTE]

Seems as though you have forgotten 2 Tim 1:10 (ESV), 'and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel'.
 

chessman

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Seems as though you do not know how to parse a Greek verb.
I do know how. But I'm not going to spend the time it takes to type a post of the Greek parsing of the verb out for you. Go do it yourself and make whatever point you want to make from that effort.
It's not going to answer my question to you though.
 

OzSpen

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Yes I do [believe in the resurrection]. I assume, however, that you do not believe that the resurrection of the dead that Paul speaks of here is the resurrection of the lost. Do you think the lost's bodies are raised in glory?

The Scripture teaches the resurrection of both the lost and redeemed:

John 5:28-30 (ESV) states,

28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgement.​

This is further affirmed in Acts 24:14-15 (ESV),

14 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets, 15 having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.​

At the final resurrection, both believers and unbelievers will be raised. That's Bible.

Oz
 

OzSpen

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I do know how. But I'm not going to spend the time it takes to type a post of the Greek parsing of the verb out for you. Go do it yourself and make whatever point you want to make from that effort.
It's not going to answer my question to you though.

That's a hop skip and jump around the issue. If you knew how to parse a Greek verb, you could identify it in a flash. You haven't done that so I'm left to doubt that you can do it.
 

OzSpen

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I have looked at the entire Book. I found no proof in it for your claim that the lost derive immortality through Christ. Quite the opposite, in fact.

For heaven's sake, we are dealing with the OT Book of Ecclesiastes. Of course we will not find any reference of immortality through Christ. Nobody can find immortality through Christ in Ecclesiastes.

However, with progressive revelation, that is made clearer in the NT.
 

freewill

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Of course 'the dead know nothing' further here on earth.

What Ecclesiastes 9:5 actually says is, "the dead know nothing” period. It does not say "the dead know nothing here on earth” to corrupt the original meaning is unwise.

Where in Ecclesiastes does it say that 'the spirit returns to God who gave it' and in God's presence they know nothing. You are imposing your agenda.

Where in Ecclesiastes does it say 'the spirit returns to God who gave it' and all spirits, saved and unsaved, remain alive and conscious, even forever? You are imposing your agenda.
 

freewill

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For Adam to have lived forever, his body soul and spirit would have needed spiritual food which only the infinite God could have given, and Adam would have received this through first eating from the tree of life had he not given into temptation and believed the lie of Satan.
God alone is immortal, not man, not his soul, not his worldly spirit, but God alone is immortal as 1 Timothy 6:15-16 NIV explains, does that make sense? … or would you prefer to alter the meaning of God's instruction here as well?

Seems as though you have forgotten 2 Tim 1:10 (ESV), 'and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel'.
So what are you saying now Oz, that before the finished work of Christ the souls who died were in fact mortal?
 

chessman

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If you knew how to parse a Greek verb, you could identify it in a flash. You haven't done that so I'm left to doubt that you can do it.
If I only knew pig-Latin and had an IQ of 75, it wouldn't produce a Scripture that teaches us that lost souls have derived immortality in Christ.

Similarly, you could have a PhD in NT studies and teach koine Greek and never be able to produce a passage of Scripture that teaches that lost soul derive immortality from Christ.
 

Jim Parker

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I am sorry about that, it make perfect sense to me.
What "makes sense" to you is not necessarily logical or reasonable.
For Adam to have lived forever, his body soul and spirit would have needed spiritual food which only the infinite God could have given, and Adam would have received this through first eating from the tree of life had he not given into temptation and believed the lie of Satan.
Define "spiritual food."
What kind of "food" does the spirit eat?
 

Jim Parker

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Similarly, you could have a PhD in NT studies and teach koine Greek and never be able to produce a passage of Scripture that teaches that lost soul derive immortality from Christ.
Nobody said it did.
The BODY receives immortality by Christ's incarnation, death and resurrection.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
The soul was never mortal to begin with.
In the parable of the rich man and Laz'arus, Jesus teaches that the soul does not die with the body. (Luke 16:1ff)
The appearance of Moses at the transfiguration teaches that the soul does not die with the body. (Mat 17:1ff)
The souls of the martyrs who cried out "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?" demonstrate that the soul does not die with the body. (Rev 6:9-10)
 

chessman

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The BODY receives immortality by Christ's incarnation, death and resurrection.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
So you think Paul here means those that are "in Christ" (i. e. those that saved) are grouped together with those that are not "in Christ" (i.e. the lost)?
 

Jim Parker

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So you think Paul here means those that are "in Christ" (i. e. those that saved) are grouped together with those that are not "in Christ" (i.e. the lost)?
Paul is not talking about those who are saved with the3 words "in Christ."
Those words are parallel with the words "in Adam."
Parallelism is a literary device used to compare or contrast to similar items.
Paul is saying that Adam brought death to all mankind and Christ brought life to all mankind.
In Adam all died.
In Christ all shall be made alive.
There is nothing in the passage that requires the interpretation of the words; "in Christ" as meaning only the saved.
1Co 15:54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
Jesus has conquered death FOR ALL.
EVERYONE will be raised from the dead immortal and imperishable.
Jesus said that where you spend eternity is up to you: John 5:28-29 (NKJV)… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Those who are condemned will spend eternity in hell. (Mat 25:46)
They can't do that if they're not immortal.
 

chessman

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There is nothing in the passage that requires the interpretation of the words; "in Christ" as meaning only the saved.

1 Corinthians 15:23-24 (LEB) But each in his own group: Christ the first fruits, then those who are Christ’s at his coming, then the end, when he hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when he has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

I disagree. And here's why:
Use your knowledge of koine Greek and tell me how many groups are mentioned in the very next verse from the one you mention, v22.
The soul was never mortal to begin with.
Then use your knowledge of konie Greek and explain why Jesus says God can destroy soul in Hell, if lost souls are immortal.
 
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