The strong delusion

[Kathi]

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
What is the "strong delusion in this passage?

 

[Gary]

The Lord is going cause them to believe the lie. The one that's doing all the lying signs and wonders. People are going to put their trust in that one. That's what the strong delusion is. God letting of all the ones that refuse to see the truth.
.

 

[Kathi]

The Lord is going cause them to believe the lie. The one that's doing all the lying signs and wonders. People are going to put their trust in that one. That's what the strong delusion is. God letting of all the ones that refuse to see the truth.
.

Who do you think "that one" is?

 

[Gary]

Who do you think "that one" is?

2 Thessalonians 2
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
.
<snip>

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Kathi: Look at the context. What's Paul talking about? The man of sin to come (the beast). Paul was saying that people refused to believe the truth, so a false Christ is going to be sent. He's going to show he is God, and sits in the temple of God (which shows the Holy Temple has to be rebuilt someday). He's going to show miracles and people will think that's the true second coming. But Paul states that this false Messiah will be destroyed by the bightness of the real Christ's coming.

 

[Kathi]

Who is this person?

 

[tim-from-pa]

I believe this beast will be the "king of the North" as prophesied in Daniel, and as Isaiah says, an "Assyrian". This means he's German. Expect Germany to come back to power leading a European union in the end times, just as Germany was once a great power under Hitler. I don't know personally who this is yet, just where to look.

 

[Deborah13]

Kathi: Look at the context. What's Paul talking about? The man of sin to come (the beast). Paul was saying that people refused to believe the truth, so a false Christ is going to be sent. He's going to show he is God, and sits in the temple of God (which shows the Holy Temple has to be rebuilt someday). He's going to show miracles and people will think that's the true second coming. But Paul states that this false Messiah will be destroyed by the bightness of the real Christ's coming.

How can any future temple be Holy? How could it be a temple of God?
Jesus and the Body are the temple where the Holy Spirit dwells?

 

[tim-from-pa]

How can any future temple be Holy? How could it be a temple of God?
Jesus and the Body are the temple where the Holy Spirit dwells?

I don't want to go into that right now, but that's an ethnocentric view. The Jews don't see things through your scope, and prophecy demands the temple be rebuilt because of that, and we can just leave it at that. Christians are a "little flock" right now, those chosen to rule and reign with Christ. Salvation of the masses comes later, not now, and it's all for them ultimately.

 

[Sinthesis]

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
What is the "strong delusion in this passage?

The strong delusion has always been that they can deliver themselves through their own unrighteous effort, which in their blind zeal they perceive as righteousness. This is the other side of 'the meek shall inherit the earth'.

 

[Kathi]

I think this person is the Anti-Christ.

 

[Deborah13]

I don't want to go into that right now, but that's an ethnocentric view. The Jews don't see things through your scope, and prophecy demands the temple be rebuilt because of that, and we can just leave it at that. Christians are a "little flock" right now, those chosen to rule and reign with Christ. Salvation of the masses comes later, not now, and it's all for them ultimately.

To me it has nothing to do with a person's ethnic identity or what culture they came from as there is no such thing in Christ. Our ethnic and cultural identity is Christ. A Messianic Jewish person is a Christian because they are in Christ. They are my brother/sister in Christ. I rejoice in the growing Messianic movement as more and more Jewish people receive him as their Savior and Lord. Prophecy is being fulfilled as the Body of Christ, the temple not built with hands, grows adding to it stone by stone. The Holy Spirit dwells in this temple.
The stones that are in this temple are from before the Christ's resurrection and after His resurrection.

 

[tim-from-pa]

To me it has nothing to do with a person's ethnic identity or what culture they came from as there is no such thing in Christ. Our ethnic and cultural identity is Christ. A Messianic Jewish person is a Christian because they are in Christ. They are my brother/sister in Christ. I rejoice in the growing Messianic movement as more and more Jewish people receive him as their Savior and Lord. Prophecy is being fulfilled as the Body of Christ, the temple not built with hands, grows adding to it stone by stone. The Holy Spirit dwells in this temple.
The stones that are in this temple are from before the Christ's resurrection and after His resurrection.

I don't fundamentally disagree. That's not what I'm talking about here. What I am saying is that's not how an unconverted Jewish person sees it. They are still awaiting Messiah and the temple, and scripture points to that happening for them. But they will be deceived first as the beast will steal the show by claiming that title first and the seating of himself in the temple. That was the original question of the OP.

 

[Deborah13]

I don't fundamentally disagree. That's not what I'm talking about here. What I am saying is that's not how an unconverted Jewish person sees it. They are still awaiting Messiah and the temple, and scripture points to that happening for them. But they will be deceived first as the beast will steal the show by claiming that title first and the seating of himself in the temple. That was the original question of the OP.

You think that Paul is referring to something totally separate than what he is referring to in Romans as blindness?

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

[tim-from-pa]

You think that Paul is referring to something totally separate than what he is referring to in Romans as blindness?

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Not sure I understand what you are asking about something being totally separate. The subject was about the strong delusion. The beast will try to imitate God in the temple, and sacrifices will cease and he will set up an abomination. Then, the subject somehow got switched to us being the temple -- I've even heard stories that this abomination meant the corruption of Christians. While that's the spiritual counterpart that we are His temple, that does not eliminate the fact that a physical one will be reconstructed, and indeed one by Christ himself when he returns, and the whole Levitical system started up again as explained in the end of the book of Ezekiel. That's not for us or our sake. That's for those in the millennium under the perfect government of God. Christians (i.e. the church) are the spiritual counterpart if you will of the tribes of Judah and Levi, just as they physically ruled and were priests for the rest of Israel, likewise the resurrected saints will do the same for those in the flesh yet of Israel, and indeed, the whole world. In other words, our lot is to rule and teach the world his Law. Not "die and go to heaven". I don't even go there in my theology. It's coming to earth, and we start when we are raised again at his coming.

 

[Deborah13]

Not sure I understand what you are asking about something being totally separate. The subject was about the strong delusion. The beast will try to imitate God in the temple, and sacrifices will cease and he will set up an abomination. Then, the subject somehow got switched to us being the temple -- I've even heard stories that this abomination meant the corruption of Christians. While that's the spiritual counterpart that we are His temple, that does not eliminate the fact that a physical one will be reconstructed, and indeed one by Christ himself when he returns, and the whole Levitical system started up again as explained in the end of the book of Ezekiel. That's not for us or our sake. That's for those in the millennium under the perfect government of God. Christians (i.e. the church) are the spiritual counterpart if you will of the tribes of Judah and Levi, just as they physically ruled and were priests for the rest of Israel, likewise the resurrected saints will do the same for those in the flesh yet of Israel, and indeed, the whole world. In other words, our lot is to rule and teach the world his Law. Not "die and go to heaven". I don't even go there in my theology. It's coming to earth, and we start when we are raised again at his coming.

Thanks Tim, you did answer my question. I don't agree with your understanding of the temple, etc. but I used to believe the same things you do. It will be very interesting to see how it all works out. Blessings, Deb

 

[JLB]

I think this person is the Anti-Christ.

 

[digging]

Here is another possible meaning to consider for who this 'Man of Sin' could be.

Daniel 2:31 "You, O king, were looking and behold, there was a single great statue ; that statue, which was large and of extraordinary splendor, was standing in front of you, and its appearance was awesome. 32 "The head of that statue was made of fine gold, its breast and its arms of silver, its belly and its thighs of bronze,33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay.

This statue is the image of a man.

Alienated humanity has been building a society that operates like one large organism, like a giant person. This 'man of sin' has sat down in the hearts of humanity with the majority of the billions believing in this human constructed civilization.

Digging

 

[Deborah13]

Here is another possible meaning to consider for who this 'Man of Sin' could be.

Daniel 2:31 "You, O king, were looking and behold, there was a single great statue ; that statue, which was large and of extraordinary splendor, was standing in front of you, and its appearance was awesome. 32 "The head of that statue was made of fine gold, its breast and its arms of silver, its belly and its thighs of bronze,33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay.

This statue is the image of a man.

Alienated humanity has been building a society that operates like one large organism, like a giant person. This 'man of sin' has sat down in the hearts of humanity with the majority of the billions believing in this human constructed civilization.

Digging

I think this is a very good point.
During the time of Christ this organism was the Roman Empire, constructed from several nations that eventually became 10 nations operating as one.

 

[digging]

Yes personally I believe everything that happen with the nation of Israel from the beginning of it's creation to the destruction was a 'model' for a global story God is working out with the whole body of humanity on earth.

Digging