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The Trichotomous and Dichotomous View

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DancesWithGnostics

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John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

I feel that the states of the afterlife - their descriptions - do not really jive in the Bible.
Statements that "the dead know nothing" are there in the Old Testament right alongside Samuel being called up from the dead, conscious and talking to King Saul.

So some Christians believe in Soul Sleep but most do not - for the Luke 16 account of Beggar Lazarus, rich man and Abraham blow out of the water the concept of soul sleep - and Luke 16 is coming from the head honcho of our faith

Descriptions of the afterlife states simply differ throughout the Bible - and one must decide on the preponderance of the evidence, as well as looking at who is talking
 

DancesWithGnostics

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1Th 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

your whole spirit
 

DancesWithGnostics

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Eternal life is something we can have abiding in us - at the present - it is also some pie-in-the-sky future thing. There are many descriptions of it in the Bible - they do not all jive and we should not try to make them jive.
 

Butch5

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John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

I feel that the states of the afterlife - their descriptions - do not really jive in the Bible.
Statements that "the dead know nothing" are there in the Old Testament right alongside Samuel being called up from the dead, conscious and talking to King Saul.

So some Christians believe in Soul Sleep but most do not - for the Luke 16 account of Beggar Lazarus, rich man and Abraham blow out of the water the concept of soul sleep - and Luke 16 is coming from the head honcho of our faith

Descriptions of the afterlife states simply differ throughout the Bible - and one must decide on the preponderance of the evidence, as well as looking at who is talking
Hi Dances,

Actually, they don't differ. It's our understanding that is the issue. For instance, Lazarus and the Rich Man, it was a parable spoken to the Scribes and Pharisses. The Scriptures tell us that Jesus spoke to them in parables so that seeing they would see and not understand. In that parable Jesus was telling them something in code. He was actually speaking of their coming judgment. Many Christians want to take this parable, that was addressed to the Pharisees, interpret it literally, and then appy it to people. It's reasons like this that are why people think the accounts don't jive. The. Bible is clear on the issue when we take our errors out of the equation.
 

DancesWithGnostics

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I don't think Jesus would tell a parable containing elements of the afterlife if those elements were not true.

Elements in His parable portray consciousness in the after-life. Verses in the OT like "the dead know nothing" do not jive with consciousness in the afterlife.

They simply do not jive - they contradict one another.

Samuel being called up by witch of Endor and speaking with King Saul - that agrees with the consciousness of departed souls which is radically different from the "dead know nothing" concept.

All those verses that SDA's (or JW's) bring up about "no consciousness in the after life" - they ARE INDEED NOT COMPATIBLE with a Beggar Lazarus, rich man and Abraham talking in the afterlife, and Samuel who converses with King Saul and even prophesies of his death - which came to pass shortly. I see no errors I need to take out of any equation.

Soul Sleep is a CROCK - it is believed by certain Christians - but it is NOT TRUE.
 

Butch5

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I don't think Jesus would tell a parable containing elements of the afterlife if those elements were not true.

Elements in His parable portray consciousness in the after-life. Verses in the OT like "the dead know nothing" do not jive with consciousness in the afterlife.

They simply do not jive - they contradict one another.

Samuel being called up by witch of Endor and speaking with King Saul - that agrees with the consciousness of departed souls which is radically different from the "dead know nothing" concept.

All those verses that SDA's (or JW's) bring up about "no consciousness in the after life" - they ARE INDEED NOT COMPATIBLE with a Beggar Lazarus, rich man and Abraham talking in the afterlife, and Samuel who converses with King Saul and even prophesies of his death - which came to pass shortly. I see no errors I need to take out of any equation.

Soul Sleep is a CROCK - it is believed by certain Christians - but it is NOT TRUE.
You said, "I don't think". That statement limits you. Maybe you don't think Jesus would do that. However, that doesn't mean He didn't. By restricting what you accept you put yourself in box where only certain things can be entertained. This is what I was referring to when I said it is our understanding that is the issue. Since you only allow certain possibilities truth is going to elude you. God isn't restricted to doing things only the way you or I think He should.

I can explain these passages in a manner that shows they are not talking about the dead being alive. Tell me, regarding Samuel, why would a prophet of God listen to and obey a demon possessed woman? Maybe there's more to this than you think.
 

DancesWithGnostics

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I am not LIMITED or put in a box. Your condescension of me as somehow unable to grasp the truth is just something you made up.
 

Butch5

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So you think Jesus would tell a parable containing elements of the afterlife which ARE NOT TRUE?
The elements represent something in the parable. Look at the details, why does Jesus give Lazarus a name? He doesn't do it in the other parables? The name Lazarus means, God help or God is my help. Why does the Rich Man have five brothers? Why are we told that he was dressed in purple and fine linen? Why are we told Lazarus was poor? Why are we told that Lazarus was carried away by Angel's? Why was he taken to Abraham's bosom? Why not Heaven? When the Rich Man asked to send Lazarus to his brothers to warn them, so that they wouldn't end up where he was, why did Abraham say they have Moses and the prophets rather than telling them to believe in Jesus? We don't have this kind of detail in the other parable.

Why is the Rich Man suffering in fire in Hades? Jesus said that the wicked would be cast into the fire in Gehenna, Not Hades. Nowhere in Scripture are people said to be in fire in Hades. So, why did Jesus use Hades instead of Gehenna?

All of these play into this parable. Read the parables before this one ans see if anyone is named or if we're told what they are wearing or such details. There's a reason Jesus went into such detail in the parable about Lazarus and the Rich Man, it was so they could be identified.
 

Butch5

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I am not LIMITED or put in a box. Your condescension of me as somehow unable to grasp the truth is just something you made up.
I'm not condescending to you my friend. I'm simply trying to make a point. If we're not open to all possibilities it's quite easy to miss things. Jesus purposely spoke to the Pharisees in code so they wouldn't understand. So, if the meaning seems abundantly clear, then it's not the meaning. The pharisees could easily understand if the parable was about the afterlife. They would have no problem seeing that. But, the point was that they wouldn't see it, thus the obvious meaning isn't the real meaning.
 

DancesWithGnostics

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Why was he taken to Abraham's bosom? Why not Heaven?

Abraham's Bosom is the Paradise side of hades - no one went to heaven until Jesus was raised from the dead - He preached to the spirits in prison. He took Abraham's Bosom's inhabitants up with Him into Heaven - that is known as "the harrowing of hell".
 

Butch5

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Abraham's Bosom is the Paradise side of hades - no one went to heaven until Jesus was raised from the dead - He preached to the spirits in prison. He took Abraham's Bosom's inhabitants up with Him into Heaven - that is known as "the harrowing of hell".
Where in Scripture do we find that? We don't, it's an inference drawn from several passages. There is no Paradise in Hades. There is no Abraham's bosom in Hades. Abraham bosom is a man's chest. Hades is the grave, and paradise means garden. There is nothing in Scripture that says there's a garden in Hades. If there was such a place in Hades, why on earth would it be called Abraham's bosom? Seriously? There's not. People are putting different passages together and creating something that isn't there. They're trying to make Scripture fit their ideas of Dualism. Many Christian's hold the "Immortal Soul" doctrine, which comes from Greek Philosphy and Gnosticism, not the Bible. Because this doctrine doesn't fit the Bible people have tried to force the Bible into it by saying things like there is a place in Hades called Abraham's bosom and Paradise. It goes like this. People start with the belief that man is an immortal soul and cannot die. So, when the read the passage about the thief on the cross where Jesus and the thief die, they can't have them be dead. They have to be alive. So when Jesus says they will be in Paradise, people infer based on their belief in an immortal soul that there must be a place in Hades called Paradise. However, they're actually misunderstanding the passage based on a punctuation issue introduced by the translators.

Regardless of where people were going, why didn't Abraham say the Rich Man's brothers should believe in Jesus rather than saying they had Moses and the Prophets?
Here is some CODE for you Butch 5 --

I
G
N
O
R
E
If you can't defend what you beleive why did you enter a debate forum?
 

D-D-W

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Hi Dances,

Actually, they don't differ. It's our understanding that is the issue. For instance, Lazarus and the Rich Man, it was a parable spoken to the Scribes and Pharisses. The Scriptures tell us that Jesus spoke to them in parables so that seeing they would see and not understand. In that parable Jesus was telling them something in code. He was actually speaking of their coming judgment. Many Christians want to take this parable, that was addressed to the Pharisees, interpret it literally, and then appy it to people. It's reasons like this that are why people think the accounts don't jive. The. Bible is clear on the issue when we take our errors out of the equation.
Actually, the story of Lazarus in Abraham's Bosom and the rich man in Hades does not fit the pattern of our Lord's parables. In parables, no one is ever named specifically. And almost every one of our Lord's parables have history going back to the previous century from the Jewish sages of Hillel and Shammai, but with changes to make different points. Not so the story about Lazarus.

So I take that story as an absolute fact, not just a parable.
 

D-D-W

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Abraham's Bosom is the Paradise side of hades - no one went to heaven until Jesus was raised from the dead - He preached to the spirits in prison. He took Abraham's Bosom's inhabitants up with Him into Heaven - that is known as "the harrowing of hell".
I have a problem with your "until Jesus was raised from the dead." It is the same problem I have with the concept of "soul sleep;" namely, it is tying eternity into our timeline. Eternity exists outside of time; so statements of "until" a certain event happens in our time line are meaningless. In eternity where God is, the past and the future can be seen simultaneously.

Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;

Psalm 41:13
Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel, From everlasting to everlasting. Amen and Amen.
 

eddif

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Just a statement or two.
God established time the 4th day of creation. What was spoken from eternity would take place .

What Jesus spoke in time will take place. Eternity will start again.

That is a Mississippi redneck speaking.
Examine the statements for truth or falsehood.

eddif
 

JLB

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Eternal life is something we can have abiding in us - at the present - it is also some pie-in-the-sky future thing. There are many descriptions of it in the Bible - they do not all jive and we should not try to make them jive.

Jesus Christ is our eternal life.

Knowing Him is eternal life.


And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3


We will be given eternal life by Him, when we stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ and have been found by Him worthy.


God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath.
Romans 2:6-8

  • eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;


But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:35-36


  • nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.






JLB
 

Butch5

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Actually, the story of Lazarus in Abraham's Bosom and the rich man in Hades does not fit the pattern of our Lord's parables. In parables, no one is ever named specifically. And almost every one of our Lord's parables have history going back to the previous century from the Jewish sages of Hillel and Shammai, but with changes to make different points. Not so the story about Lazarus.

So I take that story as an absolute fact, not just a parable.
Can you explain how it is even possible that it could be literal? As far as I've seen, dead people can't speak.

Your literal interpretation presupposes a Greek philosophic belief in Dualism, a concept not supported by Scriputre.

Just because someone is named doesn't necessitate that it can't be a parable. If that's the claim then I can equally claim nowhere else in Scropture are people said to be suffering in flames in Hades.

Maybe Jesus used the name because it's pertinent to His point. Notice, he didnt give a name to the Rich Man.
 

Butch5

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I have a problem with your "until Jesus was raised from the dead." It is the same problem I have with the concept of "soul sleep;" namely, it is tying eternity into our timeline. Eternity exists outside of time; so statements of "until" a certain event happens in our time line are meaningless. In eternity where God is, the past and the future can be seen simultaneously.

Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;

Psalm 41:13
Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel, From everlasting to everlasting. Amen and Amen.
Can you explain how eternity is outside of time when eternity means unending time?
 

eddif

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Actually, the story of Lazarus in Abraham's Bosom and the rich man in Hades does not fit the pattern of our Lord's parables
There is another way to tell it is not a parable.

Luke 16:1 kjv
1. And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.

By verse 14 some Pharisees had arrived
14. And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.

Is the concept I am speaking of hard to see? Yes and no. You would have needed to be there to realize if they were walking and passing groups or in a room that people came and went from. This is not a multitude situation.

Jesus did not speak to the multitudes except with a parable. When he was alone with the disciples, he usually did not use parables. Jesus did explain parables to the disciples.

Parables were used by Jesus to conceal truth and not reveal truth. Tradition does not usually say this. Mark 4 and Matthew 13 do reveal why parables were used.

Mississippi redneck
eddif
 
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