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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Bible Study The unforgiveable sin ?
- Thread starter twinc
- Start date
Jethro Bodine
Member
The sin that can't be forgiven is the sin of willful unbelief in the face of God's revelation of the truth of the gospel.
There does come a point where God turns a person over to that unbelief and there is no further opportunity for repentance. Your fate is sealed. And I think Esau illustrates for us that it isn't just the person who doesn't care anymore that shows himself to be the one who has been turned over to unbelief:
"15See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled; 16that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. 17For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears." (Hebrews 12:15-17)
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Dear Brother twinc, if we so much as call upon the name of the Lord, we shall be saved
because how can we call upon Him whom we have not believed.
I do not know if this will make sense, but those that are not forgiven
are them that have not believed.
There are many today that observe miracles, hear the preaching,
sometimes rejoice in the good news for a bit, and yet fall from the
grace of God being presented without believing on Him whom He has
sent.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
To me it is evident those unforgiven never had everlasting life.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.
Dear Brother twinc, if we so much as call upon the name of the Lord, we shall be saved
because how can we call upon Him whom we have not believed.
I do not know if this will make sense, but those that are not forgiven
are them that have not believed.
There are many today that observe miracles, hear the preaching,
sometimes rejoice in the good news for a bit, and yet fall from the
grace of God being presented without believing on Him whom He has
sent.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
To me it is evident those unforgiven never had everlasting life.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.
It's an individual choice to accept Jesus or reject Jesus. Those that accept Jesus by faith as their Lord and Savior also walk in the Light of His Spirit as they grow in knowledge and truth and will have eternal life with the Father as long as they obey His commands. Many only give lip service as an outward appearance, but have not the Light of Christ shinging through them and they will be rejected as they do not walk in the Light of the Spirit, Matthew 7:21-29. Then you have those who were once walking in the light of the Spirit, but end up falling away from Gods truth as they are deceived by the twisted words and lying signs and wonders of Satan as they denounce their faith in Christ grieving the Holy Spirit as they seek to save their own lives.
Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. 31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. 33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. 34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. 31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. 33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. 34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Do you know of even one that has obeyed all the commands of God other than Jesus? If that be the case I'm in awe of what Jesus did for no good reason when men had another way than grace to be saved. I've even known so-called law keepers that proclaim being righteous according to their perceived ability to keep the law, and yet they will not obey the laws of our land, and receive unto themselves damnation? (Rom 13:2). E.g., the speed limit is 30 MPH and this person that was saved goes 31 MPH; have they become unrighteous until repenting? If they are killed, the result of their ungodliness before they can repent, and be forgiven of their unrighteousness, do they go to the lake of fire? If I've got it correctly, if we obey even one bit of the law for righteousness we're obliged to keep every bit of it, and even then Paul says in Gal 5:4, Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Do you know of even one that has obeyed all the commands of God other than Jesus? If that be the case I'm in awe of what Jesus did for no good reason when men had another way than grace to be saved. I've even known so-called law keepers that proclaim being righteous according to their perceived ability to keep the law, and yet they will not obey the laws of our land, and receive unto themselves damnation? (Rom 13:2). E.g., the speed limit is 30 MPH and this person that was saved goes 31 MPH; have they become unrighteous until repenting? If they are killed, the result of their ungodliness before they can repent, and be forgiven of their unrighteousness, do they go to the lake of fire? If I've got it correctly, if we obey even one bit of the law for righteousness we're obliged to keep every bit of it, and even then Paul says in Gal 5:4, Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Thank you Edward for pointing that out as I should have said that another way as no one is justified by the law as it's by faith through Gods grace that we are saved. I should have said we have eternal life with the Father if we are obedient to His word until the end.
dianegcook
Member
Well, call me a party crasher, lol
But the understanding I get out of it is don't hold back the Holy Spirit from speaking through you.
In Luke 12:10-12
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him, but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Spirit it shall not be forgiven...
Pay attention to the next verse..
And when they bring you unto the synagogues , and unto magistrates, and powers..
Take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:
For the Holy Spirit shall teach you in the ( same hour) what ye ought to say....
What hour? The hour of temptation.
The beginning of sorrows..
Mark 13:9-11
But take heed to yourselves, for they shall deliver you up to councils, and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten, and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony against them.
And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate , but whatsoever shall be given you (in that hour) that speak ye, for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Spirit....
Luke 21:12-15
But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for My sake.
And it shall turn to you for a testimony..
Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer..
For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
My
But the understanding I get out of it is don't hold back the Holy Spirit from speaking through you.
In Luke 12:10-12
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him, but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Spirit it shall not be forgiven...
Pay attention to the next verse..
And when they bring you unto the synagogues , and unto magistrates, and powers..
Take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:
For the Holy Spirit shall teach you in the ( same hour) what ye ought to say....
What hour? The hour of temptation.
The beginning of sorrows..
Mark 13:9-11
But take heed to yourselves, for they shall deliver you up to councils, and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten, and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony against them.
And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate , but whatsoever shall be given you (in that hour) that speak ye, for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Spirit....
Luke 21:12-15
But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for My sake.
And it shall turn to you for a testimony..
Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer..
For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
My
Grey Heron
Member
I think the unforgivable sin is when we continually choose to reject the Holy Spirit. However, I believe that if we truly repent then we will be forgiven.
True repentance means changing from our sinful ways, if we are not prepared to do this then we will keep rejecting the Holy Spirit even when we cry over our sin. A good example is the comparison between Judas and Peter. Both of them betrayed Jesus, but Peter repented i.e. changed his ways, where as Judas did not. Even though it does say Judas repented to have done what he did, it's more like he regretted it. He still gave in to condemnation and suicide rather than fully accept his sin (and God's forgiveness of his sin) in order to move forward.
Even with Esau, it says "he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears."
It's hard to know exactly what went on, but it sounds like it wasn't a true repentance. Sure he cried and regretted his actions, but I imagine Judas shed a fair few tears as well.
True repentance means changing from our sinful ways, if we are not prepared to do this then we will keep rejecting the Holy Spirit even when we cry over our sin. A good example is the comparison between Judas and Peter. Both of them betrayed Jesus, but Peter repented i.e. changed his ways, where as Judas did not. Even though it does say Judas repented to have done what he did, it's more like he regretted it. He still gave in to condemnation and suicide rather than fully accept his sin (and God's forgiveness of his sin) in order to move forward.
Even with Esau, it says "he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears."
It's hard to know exactly what went on, but it sounds like it wasn't a true repentance. Sure he cried and regretted his actions, but I imagine Judas shed a fair few tears as well.
Grey Heron - good post but this is so serious and widespread that even your good post is just not good enough - it seems this sin is unrepented and unrepentable and so deeply ingrained and widespread and accepted as exactly the opposite as inspiration by the HS and, therefore, desireable and no need for repentance and so unforgiveable - wincam
Chopper
Member
IMO, there are two sins that man can commit that are unforgivable. One is a continual disrespect and refusal to answer the call to Salvation given to a man by the Holy Spirit, and he refuses that call of grace. He will die physically, and spiritually....
John 3:17 "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." (ESV)
The other is....Matthew 12:31 "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
12:32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." (ESV)
John 3:17 "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." (ESV)
The other is....Matthew 12:31 "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
12:32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." (ESV)
smaller
Member
Complete eternal forgiveness and non attainable forgiveness walk in the same pair of shoes, if we are observant to the details:
2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
If we learn how this works, there is a working in our own flesh that we should be MERCILESS to and we should hate.
Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
If we are observant, we might even see that God Looks upon us with TWO EYES. A Left Eye and A Right Eye.
With completely different intentions, noted here for example:
Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Matthew 6:3
But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
I hope those on the right hand get the picture. I know those on the left hand never will get the picture.
There were two thieves crucified with Jesus. One on His left, the other on His right.
Only ONE of them went on with Jesus.
Jesus is in our midst, dividing us, one from the other.
Open your eyes and you'll hear and see that this is a picture of US in those two.
2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
If we learn how this works, there is a working in our own flesh that we should be MERCILESS to and we should hate.
Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
If we are observant, we might even see that God Looks upon us with TWO EYES. A Left Eye and A Right Eye.
With completely different intentions, noted here for example:
Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Matthew 6:3
But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
I hope those on the right hand get the picture. I know those on the left hand never will get the picture.
There were two thieves crucified with Jesus. One on His left, the other on His right.
Only ONE of them went on with Jesus.
Jesus is in our midst, dividing us, one from the other.
Open your eyes and you'll hear and see that this is a picture of US in those two.
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dianegcook
Member
Not addressed to us?
Matt.24:3
And as He sat upon the mount of Olive, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Also Mark 13:3 and Luke 21:7
The whole Bible speaks of us....imho
Chopper
Member
Very clever smaller. I've never thought of it just that way. Blue and red. Bad and good. By the way, blue is a heavenly color, you probably already knew that.
smaller
Member
I should do purple, but I see you saw! Very good.
Tony Hyman
Member
Here are a few theological suggestions regarding the reason why "blasphemy" against the Holy Spirit is so serious in the context of Luke 12:10 "Sins against Jesus in His state of humiliation will be forgiven because the revelation of His divine glory whilst He is thus entering on the way of suffering as the lowly Son of Man is, as it were ,held in abeyance.But after His ascension, when He will reveal the truth clearly through the Holy Ghost (in the Pentecostal miracle, in the preaching of His church , ect.), it will not be forgiven to a man if he deliberately blasphemes against the Holy Ghosr in the full light of His activity, e.g. by characterizing His operations as the work of the devil."(Norval Geldenhuys The Gospel of Luke 350 )
This element of contributing the work the Holy Ghost to the work of Satin seems to be the crucial "ultimate sin" offence as supported by this opinion by Leon Morris "We must understand this , not of uttering of any form of words, but of the set of the life.This blaphemy is so serious because it concerns the whole man, not a few words spoken on any one occasion .Matthew and Mark put these words in connection with the Beelzebul conrtoversy and this helps us to get the meaning.Then Jesus' opponents attributed His works of the mercy of the devil.They called good evil.Men in such a situation cannot repent and seek forgiveness; they lack a sense of sin; they reject God's competence to declare what is right.It is this continuing attitude that is the ultimate sin."(Morris Tyndale, New Testament Commentaries, Luke 210)
If I remember correctly Bob Utley in his Understanding The Bible Luke ibiblio.ca, comforts us with the opinion that even the fact that one worries about the unforgivable sin is enough not to qualify for the non forgiveness intended in this context.
This element of contributing the work the Holy Ghost to the work of Satin seems to be the crucial "ultimate sin" offence as supported by this opinion by Leon Morris "We must understand this , not of uttering of any form of words, but of the set of the life.This blaphemy is so serious because it concerns the whole man, not a few words spoken on any one occasion .Matthew and Mark put these words in connection with the Beelzebul conrtoversy and this helps us to get the meaning.Then Jesus' opponents attributed His works of the mercy of the devil.They called good evil.Men in such a situation cannot repent and seek forgiveness; they lack a sense of sin; they reject God's competence to declare what is right.It is this continuing attitude that is the ultimate sin."(Morris Tyndale, New Testament Commentaries, Luke 210)
If I remember correctly Bob Utley in his Understanding The Bible Luke ibiblio.ca, comforts us with the opinion that even the fact that one worries about the unforgivable sin is enough not to qualify for the non forgiveness intended in this context.
Are you saying all scripture, its laws, provision, and times is directed to the Church? This brings me to ask just what is wincam you continue referencing?
smaller
Member
Eugene, we know the is true because Jesus and all the Apostles were very explicit that every Word applies to us in some way. The only way that can be true is because the Word is not (only) literal, but Spiritual.
Jesus said we live by every Word of God. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4. Paul said "all scripture" is profitable. 2 Tim. 3:16.
It can be a very difficult matter to come to understand. We know the Word of God (that would be The Word of the O.T.) became flesh in Jesus Christ, rose from the dead, sent His Spirit into our hearts by faith. We also know that the Spirit of Christ lives or dwells in us. Romans 8: 9-11 brings this point home explicitly 3 times in 3 verses. There are many like verses. Technically this does mean that the Word Lives in us. Every Word of Him that was Spoken.
I don't know if this is where twinc was going.
What do we find that God has set before us all? This was not set only to Israel of the O.T.:
Deuteronomy 30:15
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
As believers we continually lean only to the Words, life and good. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it's not the whole package, nor is it reality, as we know it. There is assuredly death and evil as well.
The factor that always seems to escape us is that it is not "just man" here on earth. We do have adverse spiritual engagements that are not with man but with the devil and his messengers. God made these and God addresses and deals with these "foreign occupiers" in MANs flesh, adversely.
Hence my observation earlier in the thread, that with Paul himself, God dealt with two separate beings. Paul and the messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh. 2 Cor. 12:7. Paul could not be condemned. The messenger of Satan could be neither forgiven or saved (or under any good or eternal "beneficial" measures of God, but only the adverse measures.) Therefore complete and total eternal forgiveness, Mercy and Grace of God in Christ abode ONLY upon Paul. And the opposite would apply to the messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh. One was forgiven. One couldn't be forgiven no matter what. Whatever Paul did would do the other party no good and could not be attributed to that party. And whatever the other party did couldn't be attributed to Paul.
Paul delineates this distinction many times in many ways in the scriptures. My favorite exposition is in Romans 9, particularly vs. 18-24.
Gods Word is not locked into time or historical context, limited by same. His Word has engaged the same ways at all times and forever.