The War To End All Wars

[journeyman]

We know our Lord in battle against all the powers of darkness defeated them, along with death.
After his victory, we're told we are soldiers who go to battle against spiritual wickedness, conquering them with our King who never leaves us.
The Bible tells us our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will come with his saints in a final battle against the beast and his army (Rev.19). This sounds exactly like the war we're currently engaged in, with the exception that the beast and false prophet aren't cast into the lake of fire, or is their army completely annihilated yet. Regardless, we can confidently say Christ has already defeated the beast, as the beast represents world empires, one of which is Rome, whom Jesus defeated when Pilate sentenced him to death.
So if we now go to war with our Lord and overcome all evil, what need is there to come with him in the future to do those things?
Is it possible that Rev.19 shows from a heavenly minded view what's happening now and that the beast is simply burned after our war to the last believer has ended?

 

[dwb001]

That would be reading into the text instead of letting the text dictate.

 

[journeyman]

That would be reading into the text instead of letting the text dictate.

I seems that way, until we consider how we wrestle not against flesh and blood, like our Savior didn't.

 

[journeyman]

A good way to understand the "end times" is, the war to end all wars happened when our King defeated death.

And his victory continues with every believer who overcomes death by him.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ is what it is.

 

[Alfred Persson]

We know our Lord in battle against all the powers of darkness defeated them, along with death.
After his victory, we're told we are soldiers who go to battle against spiritual wickedness, conquering them with our King who never leaves us.
The Bible tells us our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will come with his saints in a final battle against the beast and his army (Rev.19). This sounds exactly like the war we're currently engaged in, with the exception that the beast and false prophet aren't cast into the lake of fire, or is their army completely annihilated yet. Regardless, we can confidently say Christ has already defeated the beast, as the beast represents world empires, one of which is Rome, whom Jesus defeated when Pilate sentenced him to death.
So if we now go to war with our Lord and overcome all evil, what need is there to come with him in the future to do those things?
Is it possible that Rev.19 shows from a heavenly minded view what's happening now and that the beast is simply burned after our war to the last believer has ended?

Its odd the inconsistency in your presentation isn't immediately obvious to you. If Christ defeated all darkness, WHY do we soldiers "go to battle" against it? How could you miss how contradictory that is?

Obviously, battling darkness isn't the same for Christ and us. If it were, Christ won and we wouldn't battle at all.

Satan’s Rebellion Against God: How could Satan hope to win? | End Time News, Today - Rapture Ready News

God vs Devil is no contest. God is infinite Almighty in power, Satan finite limited in power. So how could he hope to successfully rebel against God? If he couldn't depend on his strength, then he must have depended on his "wiles", his "craftiness." What was his strategy? His plan? The answer to...

endtimenews.net

Your presentation supposes it is the same battle against darkness from start to finish.

But Christ defeated the powers of darkness (spiritually) by taking away any possibility they could succeed, and then He will return and with His angels "literally" battle them at Armageddon.

Using rudimentary informal logic, we can conclude the "hasty generalization" (fallacy) in your presentation (confusing "spiritual" with "literal" warfare), has rendered your conclusion (=question) non-sequitur.

 

[journeyman]

Its odd the inconsistency in your presentation isn't immediately obvious to you. If Christ defeated all darkness, WHY do we soldiers "go to battle" against it? How could you miss how contradictory that is?

It isn't contrdictory, because in this temporal world, the body of Christ is also the congregation of believers, which is still being added to.

Alfred Persson
Obviously, battling darkness isn't the same for Christ and us. If it were, Christ won and we wouldn't battle at all.

Yes it is the same, because we're being conformed to his image, made one with him.

Alfred Persson said

Satan’s Rebellion Against God: How could Satan hope to win? | End Time News, Today - Rapture Ready News

God vs Devil is no contest. God is infinite Almighty in power, Satan finite limited in power. So how could he hope to successfully rebel against God? If he couldn't depend on his strength, then he must have depended on his "wiles", his "craftiness." What was his strategy? His plan? The answer to...

endtimenews.net

Your presentation supposes it is the same battle against darkness from start to finish.

But Christ defeated the powers of darkness (spiritually) by taking away any possibility they could succeed, and then He will return and with His angels "literally" battle them at Armageddon.

Using rudimentary informal logic, we can conclude the "hasty generalization" (fallacy) in your presentation (confusing "spiritual" with "literal" warfare), has rendered your conclusion (=question) non-sequitur.

The only "hasty generalization I'm making is that the defeat of death shows us Jesus is God. Which leads us to be made like him,

 

[for_his_glory]

Rev 19:11-16

John is now given a vision of the full sovereignty of God as Christ comes with great power and majesty of God to judge the world. The white horse is symbolic of what military Generals use to ride into battle as now is the timing of God’s judgment as He makes war against all who have rejected Christ as Lord and Savior. The door of salvation will be closed forever at this time as no one is given a second chance on the last day after Christ returns.
His eyes like a flame of fire is His piercing look of indignation upon the world towards His enemies he is about to devour, but I do not want to get ahead of myself as this will be explained further down. On His head were many crowns meaning the conquest of every nation for Christ is now King of kings and Lord of lords over every nation under heaven as He will rule them with an iron rod. His robe is dipped in the blood of every martyr that has died for their witness and testimony of Christ for their time of vengeance will now be fulfilled.

The army that returns with Jesus is the army of angels being the host of heaven that comes down with Him and not the saints. Genesis 1:1; Deuteronomy 4:19; 33:2; 1 Chronicles 18:18; Nehemiah 9:6; Jeremiah 33:22. John 3:13 makes it very clear that no one has ever ascended up to heaven other than Christ. The only thing that goes back to God when we die is the very breath He gave us that made us a living soul, Genesis 2:7; Ecclesiastics 12:7.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days after the seven trumpets have been sounded, shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other Matthew 24:29-31, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57; 2 Thessalonians 4:13-18; John 5:28, 29; John 6:40.

Matthew 24:29-31; Rev 19:11-21 Jesus descends down from heaven with His army of the host (angels) of heaven as while remaining in the air He sends His angels out to the four corners of the earth to gather His own to Him. He will destroy the beast and false prophet casting them alive into the lake of fire, Rev 19:15, 16. The remnant in Rev 19:21 are the world leaders of every nation on the earth that have followed after the beast that rules their government. The remnant will be slain by the very words Jesus speaks of their damnation as the fowls will be filled with their flesh and at that time Satan will be chained and bound so he can not interfere with the ungodly people that are still alive on earth that become the footstool of Christ. Then the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ and He shall reign for ever and the saints will begin to rule over the nations here on earth, Rev 11:15; 5:10; 20:1-3; Matthew 5:5.

Rev 20:7-10 Those that have rejected Christ that still remain on earth after the beast, false prophet and all the ruling leaders from every nation that followed after the beast are destroyed are those who are the numbering as the sand of the sea. These are the enemy of God that Satan uses to battle against the saints during the battle of Armageddon that are camped upon the breadth of the earth after Satan is released for a season, Psalms 2:7-10; 110; Ezekiel 36; 37; Rev 20:7-9. The saints are camped not only in Jerusalem the beloved city of God, but also throughout the breadth of the earth. It's only the 144,000 generational Jews that believe in Christ that have returned to Jerusalem. After the 1000 years are fulfilled Satan is set loosed for a season and goes out to deceive the nations as he gathers the enemies of Christ to battle against the saints as the numbering of unbelievers is like the sand of the sea. As the enemy surrounds the camp of the saints God sends fire down from heaven and destroys the enemy and Satan is cast into the lake of fire. Zechariah 14; Luke 21:20-22 and Rev 16:16 mentions the battle of Armageddon when Christ and His army of angels return as Christ plants His feet on the mount of Olives for the final battle as Gog and Magog found in Ezekiel Chapter 38 is the battle of Rev 20:7-9.

(IMO 1000 years is a figurative number, not a literal number. It is figurative like the numbering in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.)

 

[for_his_glory]

Your presentation supposes it is the same battle against darkness from start to finish.

But Christ defeated the powers of darkness (spiritually) by taking away any possibility they could succeed, and then He will return and with His angels "literally" battle them at Armageddon.

You do not even see by what you said here is that you are actually agreeing with the OP. The battle has always belonged to the Lord and at the battle of Armageddon after Jesus comes in the air and we are then caught up to meet Him in the air then will Jesus plant His feet on the Mount of Olives conquering all evil casting Satan into the lake of fire and all who have already damned themselves will then be judged and also cast into the lake of fire.

 

[journeyman]

To me, it's seems like the wars in Rev.19 & 20 describe the same war.
We know believers are fighting battles against the powers of darkness now. We also know OT believers took part in the same war all believers do. It seems when the saints are glorified by him at his 2nd appearing, there's no enemy left,

we shall all be changed, In a moment.....the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Cor.15:51-52

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 1Cor.15:26
death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Rev.20:14

That's the end.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What is the whole world supposed to have done to rendered this judgement you speak of? I mean we are talking a world so evil Sodom pales in comparison. Do you see signs that this level of evil is being reached?

I read “it is appointed once for man to die and THEN comes judgement.”

(You know, of course, I believe the judgement in Revelation was against that generation that had murdered the Christ and many of his followers. That is something worthy of the horrible experiences of judgement described in Matt 24, Revelation and Daniel.)

 

[Consecrated Life]

We know our Lord in battle against all the powers of darkness defeated them, along with death.
After his victory, we're told we are soldiers who go to battle against spiritual wickedness, conquering them with our King who never leaves us.
The Bible tells us our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will come with his saints in a final battle against the beast and his army (Rev.19). This sounds exactly like the war we're currently engaged in, with the exception that the beast and false prophet aren't cast into the lake of fire, or is their army completely annihilated yet. Regardless, we can confidently say Christ has already defeated the beast, as the beast represents world empires,

You are confusing the spiritual with the worldly .
Yes the spiritual war has been finished , Satan is now a defeated foe.
The physical "war" that the Lord Himself will command will have physical ends results that are nowhere to be seen at this time.
One of those being the " Meek Shall Inherit The Earth" to name just one .
I don't see that the meek have inherited the earth at all right now .


Mat 5:5
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

 

[journeyman]

What is the whole world supposed to have done to rendered this judgement you speak of? I mean we are talking a world so evil Sodom pales in comparison. Do you see signs that this level of evil is being reached?

I read “it is appointed once for man to die and THEN comes judgement.”

(You know, of course, I believe the judgement in Revelation was against that generation that had murdered the Christ and many of his followers. That is something worthy of the horrible experiences of judgement described in Matt 24, Revelation and Daniel.)

Hi Dorothy Mae.
I don't know if this was directed at me, but I think it also includes believers from beginning to end, because we all follow our Lord. Many are persecuted to death.

 

[journeyman]

You are confusing the spiritual with the worldly .
Yes the spiritual war has been finished , Satan is now a defeated foe.
The physical "war" that the Lord Himself will command will have physical ends results that are nowhere to be seen at this time.

Our Lords' victory did occur in the physical, when he overcame his murder and that physical end result never happened before, or ever will again.
The saints will be raised physically later, but not under our own power, as our Master did.

One of those being the " Meek Shall Inherit The Earth" to name just one .
I don't see that the meek have inherited the earth at all right now .


Mat 5:5
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Yes, when his body of believers is complete, but this promise is sure, so in Christ, we live with the knowledge that all things belong to our Father, who shares his abundance will all. So we do likewise.

 

[journeyman]

I should have added how Jesus taught,

if you have not been trustworthy with someone else’s property, who will give you property of your own? Lk.16:12

So the meek will inherit what belongs to our Father.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Hi Dorothy Mae.
I don't know if this was directed at me, but I think it also includes believers from beginning to end, because we all follow our Lord. Many are persecuted to death.

I don’t understand your answer. Your view is God finally punishes terribly those unlucky unbelievers who happened to be living then. I asked what they do to deserve special punishment above other generations.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I should have added how Jesus taught,

if you have not been trustworthy with someone else’s property, who will give you property of your own? Lk.16:12

So the meek will inherit what belongs to our Father.

All true but what does that have to do with your escatology?

 

[for_his_glory]

You are confusing the spiritual with the worldly .
Yes the spiritual war has been finished , Satan is now a defeated foe.
The physical "war" that the Lord Himself will command will have physical ends results that are nowhere to be seen at this time.
One of those being the " Meek Shall Inherit The Earth" to name just one .
I don't see that the meek have inherited the earth at all right now .


Mat 5:5
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Do you think the last battled called the battle of Armageddon that comes after Christ returns and we being caught up to Him at that time and return to earth with Him while He plants His feet on the Mount of Olives and after and then Satan being loosed for a time will be fought with actual tanks and guns? Will Jesus be welding a gun or driving a tank to defeat the enemy, or does God send fire down from heaven to devour the enemy?

The battle of Armageddon will be a spiritual battle when Satan is loosed for a season causing all who are the enemies of Christ to encompass the camp of the saints for the last time trying to destroy God's own, but finds him own self cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[journeyman]

I don’t understand your answer. Your view is God finally punishes terribly those unlucky unbelievers who happened to be living then.

That's not my answer. My answer is, God has punished people throughout history in many ways for not believing in him. Of course, it's worse in the sense that no mere prophet testified at that time, but the Son himself.

I asked what they do to deserve special punishment above other generations.

They rejected the Lord, but people rejected him by the prophets also and by what humans can know about him from the nature he made. But their punishment isn't special or above other generations.

When our Savior said it will be more tolerable for Sodom than for people who heard him, the conclusion is those who heard him faced complete destruction.

 

[journeyman]

All true but what does that have to do with your escatology?

It has everything to do with it, because before the Messiah was rejected, the Father sent others (the prophets) and after him (his disciples) to collect the Fathers due.
The final end of the unrepentant will be meeting him in Person, which will be like a devouring fire. A lake of fire. But destruction in this world has gone on from before us and still does.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Do you think the last battled called the battle of Armageddon that comes after Christ returns and we being caught up to Him at that time and return to earth with Him while He plants His feet on the Mount of Olives and after and then Satan being loosed ...

The battle of Armageddon will be a spiritual battle when Satan is loosed for a season...

Satan is only "loosed" at the end of Christ's earthly rule.
His feet will have actually touched the Mt. of Olives at the beginning of His earthly rule as he then crosses the brook Kidron and enters Jerusalem through the Eastern gate,
All of this happening many, many years before " Satan is Loosed "
You are confused about Jesus's FIRST coming to reign on earth , and then many, many years later Jesus's settling all accounts in the battlefield of Megiddo .
Two very individual events.
Yes ? No ?
There is in God's Word a prophesy that mentions both individual events , Jesus's rule from Mt. Zion , FOLLOWED by Jesus's rath against the forces rallied against Him.
Please not the order in which these events occur, earthly rule followed by earthly rath.


Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

Psa 2:7

Psa 2:8
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Psa 2:9
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.