These Signs Will Follow Those Who Believe (Mark 16:17)

[Alfred Persson]

14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.
15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

17 "And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
18 "they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

[As individual Pentecostal and Non-Pentecostal believers today DO NOT DO ALL the signs (cast out demons, speak with new tongues, take up serpents, drink deadly poison) must we conclude there are no believers today on planet earth?

Of course not.

There is a transition implied by the context, from believers preached to in the world, to the special group of "believing preachers" Christ is sending who likely numbered in the thousands. These signs indicated who among them were true believers. Therefore, the pronouns "they, them" in Mark 16:17-18 refer to this group who uniquely establish the Christian faith in all the earth.

The Eleven would know if they truly believe, they would do all the signs that confirmed their word was from God (Comp. Heb. 2:3-4).

After teaching the eleven, the writer confirms the prophecy was fulfilled in the first century Mark 16:19-20). In the NT book of Acts we see Paul claimed to do all these signs of an apostle specially sent by Christ (2 Cor. 12:12; Compare Acts 16:18; 20:9-12; 28:3-5, 8; 1 Cor. 14:18).]

19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.

20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen. (Mk. 16:13-20 NKJ)

 

[for_his_glory]

Mar 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Sorry, but these signs are still manifested today through the Holy Spirit working through those of faith in the works of the Lord. I am one, as many, that through the name of Jesus have cast out devils, speaks in tongues and have laid hands on the sick and saw Jesus heal them.

I'm not stupid enough to handle poisonous snakes like some of those crazy preachers or drink the Kool-Aid as that is not what Jesus meant by vs.16, but that if one would pick up a snake or drink any deadly thing Jesus will heal them through others laying hands on them.

I know this goes against your Cessationism beliefs, but truth is only found in the doctrines of Christ, not the doctrines of man.

 

[jaybo]

14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.
15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

17 "And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
18 "they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

[As individual Pentecostal and Non-Pentecostal believers today DO NOT DO ALL the signs (cast out demons, speak with new tongues, take up serpents, drink deadly poison) must we conclude there are no believers today on planet earth?

Of course not.

There is a transition implied by the context, from believers preached to in the world, to the special group of "believing preachers" Christ is sending who likely numbered in the thousands. These signs indicated who among them were true believers. Therefore, the pronouns "they, them" in Mark 16:17-18 refer to this group who uniquely establish the Christian faith in all the earth.

The Eleven would know if they truly believe, they would do all the signs that confirmed their word was from God (Comp. Heb. 2:3-4).

After teaching the eleven, the writer confirms the prophecy was fulfilled in the first century Mark 16:19-20). In the NT book of Acts we see Paul claimed to do all these signs of an apostle specially sent by Christ (2 Cor. 12:12; Compare Acts 16:18; 20:9-12; 28:3-5, 8; 1 Cor. 14:18).]

19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.

20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen. (Mk. 16:13-20 NKJ)

The last part of Mark 16 was added by a scribe after the gospel was finished. Do your homework!

 

[Alfred Persson]

The last part of Mark 16 was added by a scribe after the gospel was finished. Do your homework!

That's Satan's homework.

Christ is my LORD:
"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. (Matt. 5:18 NKJ)

The Byzantine family of the NT (the Text used by the KJV) also called the "received text" contains the last part of Mark:

9 Ἀναστὰς δὲ πρωῒ πρώτῃ σαββάτου ἐφάνη πρῶτον Μαρίᾳ τῇ Μαγδαληνῇ, ἀφ᾽ ἧς ἐκβεβλήκει ἑπτὰ δαιμόνια.

10 Ἐκείνη πορευθεῖσα ἀπήγγειλεν τοῖς μετ᾽ αὐτοῦ γενομένοις, πενθοῦσιν καὶ κλαίουσιν.

11 Κἀκεῖνοι ἀκούσαντες ὅτι ζῇ καὶ ἐθεάθη ὑπ᾽ αὐτῆς ἠπίστησαν.

12 Μετὰ δὲ ταῦτα δυσὶν ἐξ αὐτῶν περιπατοῦσιν ἐφανερώθη ἐν ἑτέρᾳ μορφῇ, πορευομένοις εἰς ἀγρόν.

13 Κἀκεῖνοι ἀπελθόντες ἀπήγγειλαν τοῖς λοιποῖς· οὐδὲ ἐκείνοις ἐπίστευσαν.

14 Ὕστερον ἀνακειμένοις αὐτοῖς τοῖς ἕνδεκα ἐφανερώθη, καὶ ὠνείδισεν τὴν ἀπιστίαν αὐτῶν καὶ σκληροκαρδίαν, ὅτι τοῖς θεασαμένοις αὐτὸν ἐγηγερμένον οὐκ ἐπίστευσαν.

15 Καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς, Πορευθέντες εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἅπαντα, κηρύξατε τὸ εὐαγγέλιον πάσῃ τῇ κτίσει.

16 Ὁ πιστεύσας καὶ βαπτισθεὶς σωθήσεται· ὁ δὲ ἀπιστήσας κατακριθήσεται.

17 Σημεῖα δὲ τοῖς πιστεύσασιν ταῦτα παρακολουθήσει· ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί μου δαιμόνια ἐκβαλοῦσιν· γλώσσαις λαλήσουσιν καιναῖς·

18 ὄφεις ἀροῦσιν· κἂν θανάσιμόν τι πίωσιν, οὐ μὴ αὐτοὺς βλάψῃ· ἐπὶ ἀρρώστους χεῖρας ἐπιθήσουσιν, καὶ καλῶς ἕξουσιν.

19 Ὁ μὲν οὖν κύριος, μετὰ τὸ λαλῆσαι αὐτοῖς, ἀνελήφθη εἰς τὸν οὐρανόν, καὶ ἐκάθισεν ἐκ δεξιῶν τοῦ θεοῦ.

20 Ἐκεῖνοι δὲ ἐξελθόντες ἐκήρυξαν πανταχοῦ, τοῦ κυρίου συνεργοῦντος, καὶ τὸν λόγον βεβαιοῦντος διὰ τῶν ἐπακολουθούντων σημείων. Ἀμήν.

(Mk. 16:9-20 BYZ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

Mar 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Sorry, but these signs are still manifested today through the Holy Spirit working through those of faith in the works of the Lord. I am one, as many, that through the name of Jesus have cast out devils, speaks in tongues and have laid hands on the sick and saw Jesus heal them.

I'm not stupid enough to handle poisonous snakes like some of those crazy preachers or drink the Kool-Aid as that is not what Jesus meant by vs.16, but that if one would pick up a snake or drink any deadly thing Jesus will heal them through others laying hands on them.

I know this goes against your Cessationism beliefs, but truth is only found in the doctrines of Christ, not the doctrines of man.

I am convinced sincere Christians can suffer self delusion, be victims of f hypnosis, mesmerism and emotional fanaticism, and mistake these effects for what is seen in the NT:

I consider it fraud people say they manifest the same gifts Paul and Peter did. I have yet to see anyone today do this:

11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.
13 And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them.
14 And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)
15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.
16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
(Acts 5:11-16 KJV)

Until I see THAT replicated among Charismatics, whatever they do is something else. Not the same as the gifts of the Holy Spirit in the NT.

When is the last time you heard and saw this:

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
(Acts 2:2-4 KJV)


Never. Until you do, don't bother citing your experiences. Just as my experiences prove nothing to you, yours prove nothing to me.

You must make your case using Scripture and so far you have failed to do that. My legit objections were never answered.

 

[jerry63935]

we seem to have several that appear to be the only correct one

1 Corinthians 4:15​

“For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.”

 

[Alfred Persson]

we seem to have several that appear to be the only correct one

1 Corinthians 4:15​

“For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.”

You lost me, if indeed you are replying to something I said. Try again. This time quote who you reply to. Its too hard to guess.

 

[jerry63935]

You lost me, if indeed you are replying to something I said. Try again. This time quote who you reply to. Its too hard to guess.

had i wanted it directly to a person i would have done so ..but i dont need to try again

 

[jerry63935]

I am convinced sincere Christians can suffer self delusion, be victims of f hypnosis, mesmerism and emotional fanaticism, and mistake these effects for what is seen in the NT:

it can be but its just not the Pentecostals/ charismatic

 

[Alfred Persson]

it can be but its just not the Pentecostals/ charismatic

That's correct. Experiences can easily deceive anyone. For a time I was deceived by a "feeling" I thought was God's leading. But when I tested the "feeling", asking "it" which way I should go (left or right at a intersection), it "indicated" I should go right. So I went left, and as I walked the "feeling" impressed upon me I "made the right choice."

Then I knew it was a con, I was being deceived. The "feeling" clearly wasn't of God, He never lies or makes mistakes.

So I know "self delusion" can happen to a Christian. It happened to me.

The best defense against "experiential delusion" is the OBJECTIVE text of Scripture. Obey Scripture as it was meant by the author, studying the context to discern what the author is saying, and follow that.

Then self-delusion is near impossible, provided the exegesis is sound and one isn't allowing "confirmation bias" veil the truth of scripture.

5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?-- unless indeed you are disqualified.
6 But I trust that you will know that we are not disqualified.
(2 Cor. 13:5-6 NKJ)

To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isa. 8:20 NKJ)

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:16-4:1 NKJ)

Observe Paul did NOT say "a particular feeling will guide you." Scripture never points to any experience as our guide, and the most likely reason for that is "there is no experience that is our guide." ONLY the Word of God the Bible is the lamp for our feet

105 NUN. Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path.
106 I have sworn and confirmed That I will keep Your righteous judgments. (Ps. 119:105-106 NKJ)

32 "Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.

1 "If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
2 "and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying,`Let us go after other gods'-- which you have not known--`and let us serve them,'
3 "you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 "You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice, and you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him.
(Deut. 12:32-13:4 NKJ)
.

 

[Alfred Persson]

That's correct. Experiences can easily deceive anyone. For a time I was deceived by a "feeling" I thought was God's leading. But when I tested the "feeling", asking "it" which way I should go (left or right at a intersection), it "indicated" I should go right. So I went left, and as I walked the "feeling" impressed upon me I "made the right choice."

Then I knew it was a con, I was being deceived. The "feeling" clearly wasn't of God, He never lies or makes mistakes.

So I know "self delusion" can happen to a Christian. It happened to me.

The best defense against "experiential delusion" is the OBJECTIVE text of Scripture. Obey Scripture as it was meant by the author, studying the context to discern what the author is saying, and follow that.

Then self-delusion is near impossible, provided the exegesis is sound and one isn't allowing "confirmation bias" veil the truth of scripture.

5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?-- unless indeed you are disqualified.
6 But I trust that you will know that we are not disqualified.
(2 Cor. 13:5-6 NKJ)

To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isa. 8:20 NKJ)

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:16-4:1 NKJ)

Observe Paul did NOT say "a particular feeling will guide you." Scripture never points to any experience as our guide, and the most likely reason for that is "there is no experience that is our guide." ONLY the Word of God the Bible is the lamp for our feet

105 NUN. Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path.
106 I have sworn and confirmed That I will keep Your righteous judgments. (Ps. 119:105-106 NKJ)

32 "Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.

1 "If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
2 "and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying,`Let us go after other gods'-- which you have not known--`and let us serve them,'
3 "you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 "You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice, and you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him.
(Deut. 12:32-13:4 NKJ)
.

When I realized the experience I thought was "the Lord's leading" was self-delusion, it was a terrible time emotionally. I felt "lost". The "experience" had dulled my ability to think critically, reason upon facts to make decisions. I trusted the "experience" to lead me, not logic.

It took some time to regain my ability to think critically, and I understand why some wouldn't want to discard the "experience". There is great emotional attachment to it, a love of it.

But if you love God above all else, you will "sell" any emotional comfort you gained from self-delusion, and follow Him.

7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul; The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;
8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes;
9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever; The judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold, Yea, than much fine gold; Sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11 Moreover by them Your servant is warned, And in keeping them there is great reward.
12 Who can understand his errors? Cleanse me from secret faults. (Ps. 19:7-12 NKJ)

12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.
(Heb. 4:12-13 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

When I realized the experience I thought was "the Lord's leading" was self-delusion, it was a terrible time emotionally. I felt "lost". The "experience" had dulled my ability to think critically, reason upon facts to make decisions. I trusted the "experience" to lead me, not logic.

It took some time to regain my ability to think critically, and I understand why some wouldn't want to discard the "experience". There is great emotional attachment to it, a love of it.

But if you love God above all else, you will "sell" any emotional comfort you gained from self-delusion, and follow Him.

7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul; The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;
8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes;
9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever; The judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold, Yea, than much fine gold; Sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11 Moreover by them Your servant is warned, And in keeping them there is great reward.
12 Who can understand his errors? Cleanse me from secret faults. (Ps. 19:7-12 NKJ)

12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.
(Heb. 4:12-13 NKJ)

I should explain why I thought an experience I felt was "the leading of the Holy Spirit."

In the "Aid to Bible Understanding" (WatchTower, NY, 1971, p. 1669) they cite Johannes Greber's "A New Translation Based Upon the Oldest Manuscripts" in support of their Jn 1:1 rendering "The Word was a god." I felt compelled to check that out, so I went to the public library and discovered in his forward his claim to be in communication with spirits. Whenever the spirits were silent, then he used the Greek Manuscripts. So in effect, the Jehovah's Witnesses cited a devil for support of their incorrect "the word was a god" rendering. That apologetic bombshell was shared with every apologist I could and it became an important element in witnessing to Jehovah's Witnesses.

But, I associated a feeling with this apologetic bonanza, and began "consulting it" for what I should do in Christ. Not for doctrine, the Bible alone is the Word of God, but for "indication", what I should do in service to Christ.

That resulted in total failure, NOTHING succeeded, only wasted time and resources resulted. It took years, but finally I had enough.

I did a simple test, seems almost stupid now. I was at an intersection and asked, "Which way should I go?" The "feeling" indicated, "Go right!" So I went left and as I proceeded down the road the "feeling" that "indicated" I should go right, confirmed going left was the right way!

That was it, no more!

The compulsion to research was "witness from my own conscience, NOT a 'feeling', its a 'knowing (comp. Rom. 9:1)

But for some reason, don't know why, I associated a "feeling" with this "witness like that from my conscience", and then confused it as being "the guidance of the Holy Spirit".
.
You know the rest from post # 10-11 above this.

20 Daniel answered and said: "Blessed be the name of God forever and ever, For wisdom and might are His.
21 And He changes the times and the seasons; He removes kings and raises up kings; He gives wisdom to the wise And knowledge to those who have understanding (0999 בִּינָה biynah).
22 He reveals deep and secret things; He knows what is in the darkness, And light dwells with Him. (Dan. 2:20-22 NKJ)


0999 בִּינָה biynah Aramaic( {bee-naw'}
Meaning: 1) understanding, discernment

Discernment is the ability to think critically, to reason from effects to likely causes.

 

[jaybo]

That's Satan's homework.

Christ is my LORD:
"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. (Matt. 5:18 NKJ)

The Byzantine family of the NT (the Text used by the KJV) also called the "received text" contains the last part of Mark:

9 Ἀναστὰς δὲ πρωῒ πρώτῃ σαββάτου ἐφάνη πρῶτον Μαρίᾳ τῇ Μαγδαληνῇ, ἀφ᾽ ἧς ἐκβεβλήκει ἑπτὰ δαιμόνια.

10 Ἐκείνη πορευθεῖσα ἀπήγγειλεν τοῖς μετ᾽ αὐτοῦ γενομένοις, πενθοῦσιν καὶ κλαίουσιν.

11 Κἀκεῖνοι ἀκούσαντες ὅτι ζῇ καὶ ἐθεάθη ὑπ᾽ αὐτῆς ἠπίστησαν.

12 Μετὰ δὲ ταῦτα δυσὶν ἐξ αὐτῶν περιπατοῦσιν ἐφανερώθη ἐν ἑτέρᾳ μορφῇ, πορευομένοις εἰς ἀγρόν.

13 Κἀκεῖνοι ἀπελθόντες ἀπήγγειλαν τοῖς λοιποῖς· οὐδὲ ἐκείνοις ἐπίστευσαν.

14 Ὕστερον ἀνακειμένοις αὐτοῖς τοῖς ἕνδεκα ἐφανερώθη, καὶ ὠνείδισεν τὴν ἀπιστίαν αὐτῶν καὶ σκληροκαρδίαν, ὅτι τοῖς θεασαμένοις αὐτὸν ἐγηγερμένον οὐκ ἐπίστευσαν.

15 Καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς, Πορευθέντες εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἅπαντα, κηρύξατε τὸ εὐαγγέλιον πάσῃ τῇ κτίσει.

16 Ὁ πιστεύσας καὶ βαπτισθεὶς σωθήσεται· ὁ δὲ ἀπιστήσας κατακριθήσεται.

17 Σημεῖα δὲ τοῖς πιστεύσασιν ταῦτα παρακολουθήσει· ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί μου δαιμόνια ἐκβαλοῦσιν· γλώσσαις λαλήσουσιν καιναῖς·

18 ὄφεις ἀροῦσιν· κἂν θανάσιμόν τι πίωσιν, οὐ μὴ αὐτοὺς βλάψῃ· ἐπὶ ἀρρώστους χεῖρας ἐπιθήσουσιν, καὶ καλῶς ἕξουσιν.

19 Ὁ μὲν οὖν κύριος, μετὰ τὸ λαλῆσαι αὐτοῖς, ἀνελήφθη εἰς τὸν οὐρανόν, καὶ ἐκάθισεν ἐκ δεξιῶν τοῦ θεοῦ.

20 Ἐκεῖνοι δὲ ἐξελθόντες ἐκήρυξαν πανταχοῦ, τοῦ κυρίου συνεργοῦντος, καὶ τὸν λόγον βεβαιοῦντος διὰ τῶν ἐπακολουθούντων σημείων. Ἀμήν.

(Mk. 16:9-20 BYZ)

So the Byzantine family of the NT (the Text used by the KJV) also called the "received text" contains the last part of Mark. That doesn't make it a valid part of Scripture. There is no question that it was added by some scribe after the gospel was written.

If you think that it's valid, don't play around with venomous snakes or drink deadly poison.

 

[for_his_glory]

I am convinced sincere Christians can suffer self delusion, be victims of f hypnosis, mesmerism and emotional fanaticism, and mistake these effects for what is seen in the NT:

I consider it fraud people say they manifest the same gifts Paul and Peter did. I have yet to see anyone today do this:

11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.
13 And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them.
14 And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)
15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.
16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
(Acts 5:11-16 KJV)

Until I see THAT replicated among Charismatics, whatever they do is something else. Not the same as the gifts of the Holy Spirit in the NT.

When is the last time you heard and saw this:

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
(Acts 2:2-4 KJV)


Never. Until you do, don't bother citing your experiences. Just as my experiences prove nothing to you, yours prove nothing to me.

You must make your case using Scripture and so far you have failed to do that. My legit objections were never answered.

We can not manifest the gifts of the Holy Spirit on our own as they only come by the Holy Spirit working in us.

If a Christian is messing with hypnosis, mesmerism and emotional fanaticism, then they are being disobedient to God who warned us to stay away from such things. The Bible does not support cessationism as they quote 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 to try and prove their point that the gifts of the Holy Spirit stopped when all the Apostles died and that is a lie straight from Satan deceiving them. If you read the whole chapter it's about the way of love. The gifts of the Holy Spirit will only cease when Christ returns as there will be no more need of them.

 

[Mister E]

When I realized the experience I thought was "the Lord's leading" was self-delusion, it was a terrible time emotionally. I felt "lost". The "experience" had dulled my ability to think critically, reason upon facts to make decisions. I trusted the "experience" to lead me, not logic.

It took some time to regain my ability to think critically, and I understand why some wouldn't want to discard the "experience". There is great emotional attachment to it, a love of it.

But if you love God above all else, you will "sell" any emotional comfort you gained from self-delusion, and follow Him.

7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul; The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;
8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes;
9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever; The judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold, Yea, than much fine gold; Sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11 Moreover by them Your servant is warned, And in keeping them there is great reward.
12 Who can understand his errors? Cleanse me from secret faults. (Ps. 19:7-12 NKJ)

12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.
(Heb. 4:12-13 NKJ)

Did this experience give you pause? Did it cause you to stop and think and consider some of your other beliefs?

 

[Alfred Persson]

Did this experience give you pause? Did it cause you to stop and think and consider some of your other beliefs?

No. I clearly stated I didn't use it to interpret scripture. I thought it was indicating areas of ministry, where to go to evangelize. It always led to failure.

For example, while employed in the Merchant Marine I sent my Foursquare church thousands for a tract printing press. The "leading" indicated it was successful. But when I returned to the US, they used the money for other purposes, not evangelism.

For Doctrine, I study Scripture to know God's truth. I don't ask what God thinks, I read it in the Bible.

If you make a sound scriptural argument against something I believe, THEN you cause me to stop and think and consider.

Its happened in the past, someone pointed out a scripture or principle derived from scripture I overlooked or didn't give enough weight to.

But now that I've been studying Scripture over 40 years, examples of that happening are in the past.

As a follower of Christ I follow His example:

Now so it was that after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions. (Lk. 2:46 NKJ)

For by wise counsel you will wage your own war, And in a multitude of counselors there is safety. (Prov. 24:6 NKJ)

I seek the wisdom found in the Church, and multiple commentaries on a text, to make sure I am not missing something in "controversial texts." Even critical analysis by unbelievers sometimes reveals aspects others refuse to inspect. But Scripture alone (sola scriptura) is the authority, it alone will I believe 100%.

I have found Rabbinic Commentary in the Talmud especially rewarding, its like learning what Paul the apostle believed and brought forth into Christianity. Christ called some Pharisee beliefs "treasure":

51 Jesus said to them, "Have you understood all these things?" They said to Him, "Yes, Lord."
52 Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old."
(Matt. 13:51-52 NKJ)

3 "I am indeed a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the strictness of our fathers' law, and was zealous toward God as you all are today. (Acts 22:3 NKJ)

4 "My manner of life from my youth, which was spent from the beginning among my own nation at Jerusalem, all the Jews know.
5 "They knew me from the first, if they were willing to testify, that according to the strictest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
6 "And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers.
7 "To this promise our twelve tribes, earnestly serving God night and day, hope to attain. For this hope's sake, King Agrippa, I am accused by the Jews.
(Acts 26:4-7 NKJ)

The loss of this "treasure" after the Romans expelled the Jews from Palestine and Jews virtually vanished from the Christian church, and the the rise of Catholicism ignorant of this "treasure"--- led to many errors in eschatology that are easily seen in the NT, but confirmation bias is strong against anything not "Reformation approved" (which was mostly inherited from Catholicism).

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[Mister E]

No. I clearly stated I didn't use it to interpret scripture. I thought it was indicating areas of ministry, where to go to evangelize. It always led to failure.

I study Scripture to know God's truth.

If you make a sound scriptural argument against something I believe, THEN you cause me to stop and think and consider.

Its happened in the past, someone pointed out a scripture or principle derived from scripture I overlooked or didn't give enough weight to.

But now that I've been studying Scripture over 40 years, examples of that happening are in the past.

No one would know better than a cabbie....

I guess you’ve arrived. You’ve certainly stopped moving. (but there can be a difference between the two).

 

[Alfred Persson]

No one would know better than a cabbie....

I guess you’ve arrived. You’ve certainly stopped moving. (but there can be a difference between the two).

The rumour cabbies know it all is largely true, by their own testimony of course.

I should add to my witness, the "feeling of liberation" from the "tyranny of the feeling" can hardly be quantified. As time wore on, and I kept seeing failure after failure, "heeding" the "leading" was tyranny.

The joy of making my own decisions, based upon the facts I know, is far better than ignorantly "going into a foreign land expecting great success because an experience "led you to believe God wanted you to go there."

Then when poverty strikes, first you curse the king of that land for your poverty and pain, then God, like these "experiencers" who did not heed the "law and the testimony, so there is no dawn for them:

Finally they "look upward" and God gives them their first real vision---of their doom as they look downward in terror:

20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light ("Dawn" 07837 שַׁחַר shachar) in them.
21 They will pass through it hard pressed and hungry; and it shall happen, when they are hungry, that they will be enraged and curse their king and their God, and look upward.
22 Then they will look to the earth, and see trouble and darkness, gloom of anguish; and they will be driven into darkness. (Isa. 8:20-22 NKJ)

 

[journeymanisnothing]

14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.
15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

17 "And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
18 "they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

[As individual Pentecostal and Non-Pentecostal believers today DO NOT DO ALL the signs (cast out demons, speak with new tongues, take up serpents, drink deadly poison) must we conclude there are no believers today on planet earth?

Of course not.

There is a transition implied by the context, from believers preached to in the world, to the special group of "believing preachers" Christ is sending who likely numbered in the thousands. These signs indicated who among them were true believers. Therefore, the pronouns "they, them" in Mark 16:17-18 refer to this group who uniquely establish the Christian faith in all the earth.

The Eleven would know if they truly believe, they would do all the signs that confirmed their word was from God (Comp. Heb. 2:3-4).

After teaching the eleven, the writer confirms the prophecy was fulfilled in the first century Mark 16:19-20). In the NT book of Acts we see Paul claimed to do all these signs of an apostle specially sent by Christ (2 Cor. 12:12; Compare Acts 16:18; 20:9-12; 28:3-5, 8; 1 Cor. 14:18).]

19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.

20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen. (Mk. 16:13-20 NKJ)

What do you think about the idea that the signs you've cited were only to be witnessed by believers, or sincere seekers, because our Lord said,

An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas Mt.12:39

It seems they were asking from doubt. I'm not sure if anyone who doubted like that ever saw Jesus do a miracle.

 

[Alfred Persson]

So the Byzantine family of the NT (the Text used by the KJV) also called the "received text" contains the last part of Mark. That doesn't make it a valid part of Scripture. There is no question that it was added by some scribe after the gospel was written.

If you think that it's valid, don't play around with venomous snakes or drink deadly poison.

Incorrect, many scholars question that assumption, and that's all it is, speculative assumption.

What scribe (in his right mind) would add a paragraph about snake handling? Isn't it more likely a scribe would delete the paragraph as "too embarrassing"?

That's what it boils down to, what "seemeth right in your own eyes?" There are sound reasons why the majority "Byzantine text" (which was often worn out because it was used by Christians), had to keep making copies.

While the alleged "better texts" that Christians rejected because they deleted verses of scripture, scribal errors abounding, ended up "preserved" because of non use, in landfills and monasteries.

I have a great library. I know what "textual critics" claim proves a particular verse should be changed, removed or added. I find ALL of their arguments unsound speculation about text transmission and scribal habits and errors, that easily can be reversed to make a different conclusion.

For example:

13:1 And I stood (estathen) upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea (Rev 13:1) KJV

Deleting “n” in estathen changes the meaning from “I [John] stood” to “he [the Dragon] stood”:

12:18 He stood (estathe) on the sand of the sea.
13:1 And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea. (Rev. 12:18-13:1) CSB

Critics speculate a scribe added "n", which means the Dragon and John stood on the beach like buddies watching the Beast rise from the sea.

Isn't it more likely a scribe dropped the "n"?

Especially when its likely this verse alludes to the book of Daniel and his vision of beasts rising from a sea, which gives one the “interpretive key” to understanding what John wrote?

Revelation 13:1 “I stood” versus “He stood” | End Time News

Christians are told scholars establish the "original text" through careful analysis, picking the best variant that conforms to their idea of what the original said. However, that is unsound being circular. They produce a text in their own preconceived image and believe its the truth! They assume...

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