Thomas Ice - Preterism and Zechariah 12-14

[Deidr]

My favorite writer also said at Jesus's Baptism the heavens opened,and they've been open ever sense.
Through Jesus The kingdom is now available for anyone who accepts Him.

 

[journeyman]

I'm not of the same teachings of those who call themselves His J. witnesses.
I can't tell you if the kingdom is in the heart, but I read in the Bible that after John Jesus preached the kingdom of God. And that it was in the midst. My favorite writer says that the kingdom is where what God wants done is done.
And that the kingdom is available to enter now upon anyone who believes Jesus came from God, is the son of God,the creator of heaven and earth.
I also read in the Bible that the kingdom was not eating nor drinking but peace and Joy in the Holy Ghost.

All good stuff. Since God created everything, where wouldn't his Kingdom be?

 

[journeyman]

My favorite writer also said at Jesus's Baptism the heavens opened,and they've been open ever sense.
Through Jesus The kingdom is now available for anyone who accepts Him.

I think since our Kings' ministry on earth, the whole world can see how we've all sinned against God, because of the way his Son was mistreated by mankind and longsuffering he showed toward his enemies.

 

[Deidr]

I think since our Kings' ministry on earth, the whole world can see how we've all sinned against God, because of the way his Son was mistreated by mankind and longsuffering he showed toward his enemies.

Explain a little further if you will

 

[journeyman]

Explain a little further if you will

I mean before our Lord Jesus appeared, the gentile world didn't know much about the God of the Jews, or the knowledge of him dissapated over time.
There are stories of the flood in Noahs day in many gentile countries, but the details are different and you never hear from those gentile culters about the God of the Jews, how merciful and ready he is to forgive sin and how patient he is with mankind,

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Rom.1:21

But look at us now! We're learning about God and why? Because our meek Savior got spit on and much worse.

I don't know about you, but if that was me, I would have killed those people who committed sins against me worthy of death.

This is how Paul taught that Jesus "abolished the law." Our Savior didn't call the law to witness against them. But for the unrepentant,

Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. Jn.5:45

That's the gospel

 

[Deidr]

I mean before our Lord Jesus appeared, the gentile world didn't know much about the God of the Jews, or the knowledge of him dissapated over time.
There are stories of the flood in Noahs day in many gentile countries, but the details are different and you never hear from those gentile culters about the God of the Jews, how merciful and ready he is to forgive sin and how patient he is with mankind,

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Rom.1:21

But look at us now! We're learning about God and why? Because our meek Savior got spit on and much worse.

I don't know about you, but if that was me, I would have killed those people who committed sins against me worthy of death.

This is how Paul taught that Jesus "abolished the law." Our Savior didn't call the law to witness against them. But for the unrepentant,

Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. Jn.5:45

That's the gospel

now you really have lost me....

"The whole world can see how we sinned against God" that I still missed.

Now when you say this is how Paul taught the good news...Do you mean...Here we have a Savior or king who suffers with you, meaning puts up with you. Now ain't that good news.

Last the scripture you left are you saying the devil is the accuser?

 

[journeyman]

now you really have lost me....

"The whole world can see how we sinned against God" that I still missed.

Ok, I'll put it this way. Do you believe Jesus is God? If so, do you believe telling a lie about him is sin? If God came to have coffee with you and said something about you that you didn't like, would you slap him in the face?

Now when you say this is how Paul taught the good news...Do you mean...Here we have a Savior or king who suffers with you, meaning puts up with you. Now ain't that good news.

I'm glad he put up with me before I died in my sins. I hope you understand that unlike the rest of mankind (except for the innocent), Jesus wasn't suffering because he did anything wrong. He suffered because the wrong was being done to him.
They taunted him to come off the cross. Seriously? If he came off that cross they would have been annihilated. In the OT, a few people got fried for getting to close to God. The Messiah is returning that way.

Last the scripture you left are you saying the devil is the accuser?

No. Jesus said the law is still in effect for the unrepentant. The law condemns lawbreakers every day and God prolongs sinners lives. The reason for that is because Jesus Christ preached God is merciful to the repentant.
Both Christ and all of the NT writers said whether Jew or gentile, all have sinned.

he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. Jn.3:36

And the OT says exactly the same thing.

 

[Deidr]

Ok, I'll put it this way. Do you believe Jesus is God? If so, do you believe telling a lie about him is sin? If God came to have coffee with you and said something about you that you didn't like, would you slap him in the face?

I'm glad he put up with me before I died in my sins. I hope you understand that unlike the rest of mankind (except for the innocent), Jesus wasn't suffering because he did anything wrong. He suffered because the wrong was being done to him.
They taunted him to come off the cross. Seriously? If he came off that cross they would have been annihilated. In the OT, a few people got fried for getting to close to God. The Messiah is returning that way.

No. Jesus said the law is still in effect for the unrepentant. The law condemns lawbreakers every day and God prolongs sinners lives. The reason for that is because Jesus Christ preached God is merciful to the repentant.
Both Christ and all of the NT writers said whether Jew or gentile, all have sinned.

he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. Jn.3:36

And the OT says exactly the same thing.

Ok tks for the explanation...

 

[journeyman]

Ok tks for the explanation...

I'm happy to share the real gospel with everyone. I hope you don't disregard the influence the Holy Spirit had on you even when you were lost, because his Spirit gave Moses the law, which our laws are directly derived from. So we know from God that he despises those who persecute the innocent.
I ignored my own conscience because I was brainwashed. Never again.

 

[Deidr]

I'm happy to share the real gospel with everyone.

In short how would summarize the "real gospel"

I hope you don't disregard the influence the Holy Spirit had on you even when you were lost, because his Spirit gave Moses the law, which our laws are directly derived from. So we know from God that he despises those who persecute the innocent.
I ignored my own conscience because I was brainwashed. Never again.

 

[JLB]

Wanted to share the opinion of Christian professor Thomas Ice on preterism as it specifically relates to Zechariah 12-14. Very helpful essay that takes down the unbiblical view that Zechariah 12-14 refers to Jesus.

Ice-PreterismandZechariah12-14.pdf

drive.google.com

I have been teaching Zechariah 12 and 14 to refute the claims of Preterist‘s for years.


Jesus is teaching from Zechariah 14 in His Olivet Discourse.




JLB

 

[journeyman]

In short how would summarize the "real gospel"

That Jesus patiently endured vile sins comitted against him, giving people time to repent of their wrongdoing, instead of judging those sinners by the law he gave Moses,

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which wascontrary to us, and took it out ofthe way, nailing it to his cross; Col.2:14

It says at his trial when he was accused, he remained silent. He didn't defend himself. If our Lord had used the law, those people who conspired to murder him and bore false witness against him would have executed.























"

 

[Endtimesdeut32]

I have been teaching Zechariah 12 and 14 to refute the claims of Preterist‘s for years

Jesus is teaching from Zechariah 14 in His Olivet Discourse.

JLB

How would zech 14 refute preterism. See my earlier post at the bottom of page 1.

 

[Endtimesdeut32]

Hi, in a few words can you give me a brief summary of Preterism?

Their are varying degrees of preterists. Some people referred to as historicist understand much of prophecy except the revelation to be fulfilled. The revelation they believe refers to elements of catholicism as in the progression of final things over the last 1700 years.

partial preterists understand much of revelation to be fulfilled, but reserve the new heavens and earth and the bodily resurrection of the dead to be future. Their are varying understandings in this group too.
Full preterists understand the resurrection of the dead to be personal, spiritual and subjectively occurring in Jesus ministry and work on the cross, followed by and proven in open display by a public resurrection of Jesus corporate body (believers) from spiritual genocide being inflicted by the Jews and romans. It was also a public proving of being resurrected from both edenic and mosaic deaths and the fears of condemnation, failure they imposed.

Eternal bodily existence on this earth was never the creators design from the beginning for as he corrected the pharisees, saying, haven't you heard that from the beginning, he made them male and female, a growing old and dying pair, with components like all plant and animal life, designed to replenish itself.

these and a few other topics seperate partial and full preterists. Full preterists understand that we who have been given the right to be called sons of God (John 1:11-13) by the righteousness and adoption that is by faith in his son, are living in new ordinances (heaven) and new domain (earth) of Isaiah 65. As a child of God, we call out abba for our lifespans of 100 years, but the disbelieving (even in his good name) are considered accursed (sinners) though they might live to 100.

 

[JLB]

How would zech 14 refute preterism. See my earlier post at the bottom of page 1.

Zechariah 14 is what Jesus was teaching His disciples privately on the mountain of Olives, which is also called the Olivet Discourse, found in Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13.


Preterism is founded upon the words … But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.


Preterist’s believe the only possible interpretation for these words can only be the events of 70 AD.


Therefore Zechariah 14, plainly and decisively refutes the entire “theory” of Preterism, which has yet to come to pass.


Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
Zechariah 14:1-6



As we see, Zechariah 14 is about the Day of the Lord, and speaks of the resurrection of the dead in Christ, when the Lord returns with His saints from heaven to gather His people together at the resurrection of the dead in Christ, and the rapture, as well as destroy the wicked and reign as King over the earth for 1000 years.


Do you honestly believe that the coming of the Lord and the resurrection and rapture, as well as the destruction of the wicked is “past”?



JLB

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Zechariah 14 is what Jesus was teaching His disciples privately on the mountain of Olives, which is also called the Olivet Discourse, found in Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13.


Preterism is founded upon the words … But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.


Preterist’s believe the only possible interpretation for these words can only be the events of 70 AD.


Therefore Zechariah 14, plainly and decisively refutes the entire “theory” of Preterism, which has yet to come to pass.


Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
Zechariah 14:1-6



As we see, Zechariah 14 is about the Day of the Lord, and speaks of the resurrection of the dead in Christ, when the Lord returns with His saints from heaven to gather His people together at the resurrection of the dead in Christ, and the rapture, as well as destroy the wicked and reign as King over the earth for 1000 years.


Do you honestly believe that the coming of the Lord and the resurrection and rapture, as well as the destruction of the wicked is “past”?



JLB

Where is the Resurrection mentioned there? And since you think this is a local and only a local event, it really doesn’t affect hardly anyone.

And there’s only the Resurrection. There is no Rapture.

And yes those events are past but not as you think of them.

 

[JLB]

Where is the Resurrection mentioned there?

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1 Thessalonians 4:14-16

Key Point:

if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

"Sleep in Jesus" refers to the dead in Christ who have gone to heaven and return with Him to receive their resurrected bodies. God will bring them "with Him" when He returns.

So when we see the phrase in Zechariah 14 that says...

Thus the LORD my God will come, And all the saints with You.

We now understand through the writings of Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4, that the saints will come with Him and the resurrection, to receive there resurrected bodies.

Their bodies that "sleep" in the grave, will be resurrected and the saints who return "with Him" will be receive their bodies as incorruptable.



JLB

 

[Dorothy Mae]

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1 Thessalonians 4:14-16

Key Point:

if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

"Sleep in Jesus" refers to the dead in Christ who have gone to heaven and return with Him to receive their resurrected bodies. God will bring them "with Him" when He returns.

So when we see the phrase in Zechariah 14 that says...

Thus the LORD my God will come, And all the saints with You.

We now understand through the writings of Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4, that the saints will come with Him and the resurrection, to receive there resurrected bodies.

Their bodies that "sleep" in the grave, will be resurrected and the saints who return "with Him" will be receive their bodies as incorruptable.



JLB

Yes I know the teaching of the Resurrection. It’s not mentioned in Ezekiel. WHO is with Jesus has no connection to the Resurrection. And besides, in Acts, the angel said Jesus will in come IN THE SAME WAY he left. No metaphor. Ezekiel is all metaphor. Jesus is coming again descending ALONE same as he left, according to scripture.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You know, since your position is that Jerusalem will be in danger by armies of many nations attacking for no fathomable reason, it’s not really an event that concerns us, is it? We don’t live there.

 

[JLB]

Yes I know the teaching of the Resurrection. It’s not mentioned in Ezekiel. WHO is with Jesus has no connection to the Resurrection. And besides, in Acts, the angel said Jesus will in come IN THE SAME WAY he left. No metaphor. Ezekiel is all metaphor. Jesus is coming again descending ALONE same as he left, according to scripture.

I never mentioned Ezekiel.