To Vanish or to stay

[WordsintoHarmony]

Hi all posters and friends. I used to be a watcher of TBN Trinity Broadcast Network Santa Ana Calif and Costa Mesa Calif. I know thse cities because I’ve lived in Anaheim Calif 1 city north of Santa Ana. Also once I knew a girl name Tammy. We had a short affair. While I was with Tammy she was telling me about TBN where she worked. Well for example you know those gold chairs on TV? They are just just painted gold color. Thinks look more glamorous than they really are. It is a station viewed by at least one million or more. I don’t know the actual count.

They also only promote one End time Biblical Dispensation view point where Christians and Jews will be during the great tribulation. While I watched most every preacher Monday to Friday I was one of those Prophecy got to see programs. I watched John Hagee, Pat Robertson, Jack Van Impe, Hal Lindsay, Greg Laurie, Rod Parsley, Benny Hinn, Davide Breese who passed on to Ed Hindson with partners Tim LaHayes and Thomas Ice.

John Haggee, Tim Lahayes, Thomas Ice and Jack van Impe and Hal Lindsay are the 5 most or among the top Bible Prophecy end time book sellers. I don't have estimates of book sales or profits. But their books are common in Christian book outlets. In 1997 when I started to get serious to read the Bible I followed this TV station to rely on Bible Prophecy. Why is it so important that I learned this from this station? Well TBN has been owned by the late Paul Crouch and Jan Crouch. Paul Jr. or Matthew will take over the station. The owners are Pre Trib believers. Because of this they they don’t allow anyone to challenge their views. This is why on this station you never have seen Mid trib o Post trib views.

I used to think these teachers of end times were so intelligent that no one is going to prove them wrong. Would I have known sixteen years later I would be posting on a Christian forum to challenge all these End time teachers to this belief of eschatology Theology Rapture end time events? Certainly not.

And yet today I don’t agree with their end time views. Their answer seems to be the right ones. They feel like good answers. They seem to logical and well fit in the Bible. But one day the Lord urged my heart to look into the Word of God for the Lord wanted me to look this out. Which is the very question Jesus told to the Disciples. Who do “They” say I am. And they said the people say you are of the prophets or even John the Baptist raised from the dead. But Jesus said but now I say who do’’You’ Say that I am?

See there is a lesson in this. God speaks to all of our hearts. The Lord says to us don't just believe what other people say that I am. Believe who I am for in my Word I do say who I am. Another words God is saying to us read and believe God’s own testimony. Believe God before you believe any other.

No longer could Tim laHayes or John Hagee tell me what is Bible Prophecy End times. Yet I admit they got me off to a good start. Don’t believe what my pastor says or my friends say or I have been raised. Those are not acceptable excuses in the right of God. We all hold responsibility to ensure the mouth of God speaks first to us before any man breathes from his mouth. The Bible says Let every man be a liar and let Gods Word be true for then in Gods’ wisdom we shall proven to be right. So it is very important even in Bible Prophecy to believe by Faith and not by sight.

2 Corinthians 5:7
New King James Version (NKJV)

7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.



Why this is so important is that I was a Pre Trib believer for 13 years. When they told me to read I read. When they told me to turn I turned. When they told me to believe I did believe. But did not Jesus warn us about this? You Blind Guides. Your blind and you can not see where you are going and you also lead the blind and lead them into a ditch. Being blind is not following the light who is first.

Tim Lahayes can’t be my light. He can’t lead but only God can. Because now 13 years later I began to read using God’s method of reading in completeness. Read the whole chapter. Read the complete parables. Word by word lone by line never skip. For this after all is God’s Testimony where even we need to be humble to listen. After all the reading on End time Bible Prophecy over night I became a Post Trib Bible Believer.

There was not enough evidence to convince me a Rapture would occur before the Great trib. I believe there is strong enough evidence Christians will go into that last 7 years but there is lots of reading to do. I would like to start this of using real events to show why Christians will be here. OK I do know at this forum there must be Pre Trib rapture. It is everyone's right to believe the way they want to believe. If one by Faith studying the Word wants us to believe the way we do. It is within every believer to rely on God only aspect what the Bible says on these things concerning the end time events.

But we come together in this one place CF net that everyone can share their End time view points. Pre, Mid, Post or other end time views and thoughts. All are welcomed to join the thread. Please remember on CF forums we continue to be brothers and sisters in the Lord no matter what our End time Theology knows of.

For Prophecy is in part and not in whole. Rather salvation is the heart of the Gospel. So we take in mind whether we agree or disagree to do so in a Christian fashion of allowing each a say to everyone's belief to discuss end time Prophecy and not to chop the poster into pieces with harsh words of disapproval.

Things such as well your so uneducated I bet you flunked third grade 2 times. Not those kind of comments they won't help in the least. I've seen this done at several posting forums. The Devil laughs because he wants us to hurt one another using a sharp pole to hurt other Christians. Satan is the father of confusion, lies, hatred, malice, division in God's church of unity. So let us encourage one another even if we don’t see things eye to eye on the same page. . Everyone's level may differ from person to person.

I stand on the defense of Post trib which teaches that Christians will enter and go through the seven year of Jacob’s troubles and of the last3 and a half years the great tribulation where the man of abomination is revealed. Those who teach we will not be here say these kinds of things.

Well things are really going to be bad in those days. I mean wars. I mean you know a lot of people are going to die. With all such disasters you know God is not going to allow us to be here. He would not allow this to happen right? That’s what many say but is that what the Bible says will actually happen? God is going to prevent the 7 year by pulling out the believers before this happens? Well I oppose that view point. I believe Christians will stay until Jesus returns the second time. It’s why it is called Jesus second appearance. If Jesus showed up in a separate Rapture believe it or not that would be called a third appearance since Jesus already showed up once. The separate rapture would be 2 and his coming would be 3. . even in that simple fact in itself makes Pre trib to be incorrect. When the moon is in the atmosphere its appearance is counted. . so if the Rapture happens that appearance in the atmosphere counts.

But there is only a second appearance of Christ. It is called “The day of the Lord: If there was a separate Rapture then there would be 2 days of the Lord. 2 separate appearances eventually 3 at his coming. I rely on the gathering to be with the Lord and his appearance in the Heaven will be once in his return. I don’t need to count anymore. Why add another End time event? Also I want to show these events. They say we won't be here because it will be really bad then. . . but look now things are already bad. Are we standing here? Certainly we are. Take a look at these world disasters.

http://www.statista.com/statistics/268029/natural-disasters-by-death-toll-since-1980/

So look at these things. These things happened and we still stand here. When any of these events took place who was taken off the earth? This is one of many clues why Christians will go into the seven year tribulation.

My intention is not to be harsh on Pre trib believers. My intention is to get people ready to know what will most likely take place according to God’s End time fulfillment. When I share it is to protect others that none of us will be caught off guard. God wants us to know and God wants us to be ready.

 

[Eugene]

Things such as well you’re so uneducated I bet you flunked third grade 2 times. Not those kind of comments they won't help in the least.

The separate rapture would be 2 and his coming would be 3. . Even in that simple fact in itself makes Pre trib to be incorrect.

I believe in Pre-trib and up unto Mid-trib tribulation. Your comment “That simple fact” makes me think I’ve flunked the third grade 2 times. Oh the humanity.

 

[turnorburn]

The rapture doctrine causes division in the church that's all its ever done we're here for the duration guys Jesus said so..

tob

 

[jasoncran]

im a no triberest.

 

[Eugene]

The rapture doctrine causes division in the church that's all its ever done we're here for the duration guys Jesus said so.

Yeah, how can I possibly continue to love you as my brother in Christ with them there thoughts? Oh my, my, my.

- - - - - - - ​

 

[turnorburn]

Don't know Eugene we'll figure something out.. Funny thing shortly after i read Hal Lindsey's book i already had my doubts my wife who was not a Christian yet well either was i.. said something to me "what makes your generation so special" seemed a good enough question then she went on to say she thought all of the Christians died in the Coliseums.. we had a long way to go. Right from the start i had some serious doubts the theory sounded fabulous what a neat idea to be swooped up in the air never to look back.. Then some years later i read a document explaining where the doctrine originated..

tob

 

[WordsintoHarmony]

Hi Eugene and all other posters. My post begins with a somewhat Bible sermon the attitude and approach to study Bible Prophecy. The first part shows the media like TBN. For example it’s only a Pre trib aspect without allowing anyone on this station to challenge this view. Then I talk about how I once was a pre trib only because John Haggee and Tim Lahayes was so popular. They seemed so intelligent that they could not be wrong. The sermon aspect is.. Don’t listen to a pastor just because he teaches in the Bible anything. That we as Christians have to do our own homework to see for ourselves what God is telling us.. If we listen to men on the pulpit or books before the Bible we have put God in second including Bible Prophecy. In this case it is like being blind following what we may or may not know is the truth.

My comment about the third grade flunking 3 times was a comment that when debating the tribulation view such comments to one another don’t help. For example you post to another poster. Yeah and you flunked out of school. So what does that have anything to do with the topic? Nothing but unfair Bible discussion. The best way to play is to use the Bible as the best resource to prove one point of view. Name calling proves nothing. It’s just that in the past some people did not like me anymore just because we did not have the same view point. Yes they really hated me. That's not being Christian. So I’m saying let’s discuss pre mid and post trib discussion. Use the Bible or whatever facts someone has. Let’s do this with a Christian attitude and not insults to one another or to be bitter because we don’t see eye to eye. . .

Even the moderator would lock up the thread if the mod sees people tearing one another apart. But it is not wrong to disagree. For we know that Pre and mid and post are the most often 3 debated end time views. I began this with a couple of facts. 1 is Jesus appearing? If Jesus was here that’s appearance 1. We are only supposed to expect a second appearance what most Christians call the second Coming of Christ. I will say even before I was a Christian I have heard this second coming of Christ throughout my life.

It was not till the 90s I learned about this pre trib rapture teaching in the Church. For it was in the 90s I became a compromising Christian to learn these things. . Why I used compromising is because for many years I struggled to listen to God compromising my own lifestyle kind of accepting God kind of not view but yet in the process learning more about the Bible today. I’ve come a long way in improving in doing right toward God and on and off Bible study. I have been most studied since I started posting at Bible forums in 2007 with my TBN memories of the Bible along with that.

I wanted to unfold this topic as I started with 2 points. 1 if Jesus appeared the first time on Earth there can only be 1 more appearance to make it his second coming. If there was actually a Pre trib Rapture in between His second coming that counts for 3 appearance. When Jesus ascended see what the angel of the Lord said. Why do you weep people? For in that manner Jesus has ascended in the heaven so also in likewise shall Jesus return in the same like manner.

Acts 1:9-11

Jesus Ascends to Heaven
9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

So it was a promise to us Jesus would return exactly how He left. He left from the ground to the heaven then into the third Heaven where God resides. Also in likewise Jesus will come form the Third Heaven to the second.. our sky down to the earth. Thus He did just exactly what the angel told the people when Jesus had left the first time. .

The next fact is I posted about these disasters. Pre trib teaching tries to get people to believe we won’t be here because things will be really bad. God won’t allow us to see these bad things. . So I post these disasters to show we already see very bad disasters. Take these disasters seriously. We are talking about quakes over 8.0 and up in some cases. Hurricanes, tornadoes, typhoons ranging up to 4 and 5 category. How much worse do we want? The proof is the disasters show "God did allow us to see these great destructions to happen around us. That even what we see now God did not take anyone out of the way. Showing that Pre TRib argument we won’t be here when things are bad is incorrect. Because look around things are already bad now.

As a matter of fact a man named Adolf Hitler was here in the 20th century. He murdered over six million Jews even non Jews who he thought were Jew. plus all the people that were killed in the wars. This was a great time of trouble. No one left during this time. People are not saying it was not much of an event. It surly was. So I use world 2 and Adolf Hitler to show they were here then. Even in likewise in Jacob's trouble we will be here during those days. He will be worse than Adolf Hitler but he like Hitler in Judea will run after to kill the Jew. Meaning his hatred toward God Himself. The original chosen people of God. For those Jews captured will be killed even as in World War 2 in likewise we were here back then. We be there in that time also. The difference now is Germany and now Judea instead with a much more wicked man who is dictated by the dragon Satan Himself. Who also is given power and authority over all tribes, tongues and Nations. . He is called the second Beast in Rev who took over the first Beast who that is of the Nations of the world.

Pre trib wants to teach rapture before this time much because they don’t want to be here or see this. Well I don’t blame anyone not wanting to be here. But we can't make attempts to change God's unfolding plan. If God says we go then we go. If God say we stay then we stay. . We like Noah do what God commands us. I don’t believe in Pre Trib rapture cause I don’t believe the Bible is telling us of one.

I believe John Haggee tells us there is one. But I don’t believe God is. I don’t believe God is telling us what Hagee teaches among most other famous end time Pre trib teachers. . Hagee is a man in the pulpit. But God must be proven first. Don’t fear Hagee and his seminary and theology background. Fear the Lord who knows all things. It is only God we stand before His Presence. If we say yeah God but Hagee says. Haggee nothing. God wants us to know what we believe. God won’t care what Hagee says until Haggee stands before God to make account on this teaching.

The trouble with pre trib is it’s over emphasizing to being true Zionist respecters of the Jewish heritage culture, land, and Old Testament foundation. Sure we and Christians know and believe our faith began among The Jewish of Origin Culture land and one God who taught them to live after God's way. We ought to know where this all began. But now let’s remember our Faith should not be in Israel. Israel won’t save us. Jesus will. Jesus is a Messiah who came for all people both Jews and Gentiles.

Malachi 1:5



5 Your eyes shall see,
And you shall say,
‘The Lord is magnified beyond the border of Israel.’


Pre trib basically teaches a Jewish Theology of End times tribulation. But in reality the great Tribulation occurs upon the whole world. Why is this so? For all Believers await the appearance of Christ. See what Paul teaches the Thessalonians as they the Church await for The Day of the Lord and His appearing. Not the rapture alone but even His full return to the earth as well. It is not correct to teach Bible Prophecy end times are excluded to the Jews only because the New Testament is 27 books. Matthew is one of those books. Matthew is a book for all believers world wide Jews and Gentiles each under Christ all them who believe in the Lord and His promised Son. For here in the scripture it says.

Romans 10:12

12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”[g]

I am unfolding more points. Others may also bring in more points. Well the poster who said seven years later please tell us of the Pre trib origin. Please share this. I know what your talking about. Share this for where what you have found on this origin of teaching. I'm not here alone to present Bible end time facts. I am just opening this up so others can also bring their point of view what end time Bible view they believe in. I have nothing against those who believe Pre trib. I remain to be as friends. But as for the teaching of pre trib itself I challenge its teachings and try to show why Post trib is more correct of a Biblical view point. We are here after all to defend the Faith. If these things are written in the Bible then certain God wanted us to know what is to happen. Who would like to bring in more scriptures and facts into this conversation? As Rocky said in Rocky 3 Go for it.

 

[turnorburn]

A "pre-rapture" speaks to a secret taking away in a secret taking away you don't see anything happen you notice the guy that was standing next to you isn't standing next to you anymore, and according to...

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

every eye shall see him.. :yes

tob

Is this what your looking for Chopper had a thread not unlike this one

 

[Eugene]

I wanted to unfold this topic as I started with 2 points. 1 if Jesus appeared the first time on Earth there can only be 1 more appearance to make it his second coming. If there was actually a Pre trib Rapture in between His second coming that counts for 3 appearance. When Jesus ascended see what the angel of the Lord said. Why do you weep people? For in that manner Jesus has ascended in the heaven so also in likewise shall Jesus return in the same like manner.

Thanks for your reply and I agree with this if I understand you correctly. I suppose you realize that the way Jesus was taken up was from the earth, and His second return will be to the earth? Acts 1:11 “Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.” When do you think this occurs as pertaining to Revelation?

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” If we’re caught up in the air, does the Lord come back to earth at this time?

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[Eugene]

The next fact is I posted about these disasters. Pre trib teaching tries to get people to believe we won’t be here because things will be really bad. God won’t allow us to see these bad things. . So I post these disasters to show we already see very bad disasters. Take these disasters seriously. We are talking about quakes over 8.0 and up in some cases. Hurricanes, tornadoes, typhoons ranging up to 4 and 5 category. How much worse do we want?

Mat 24:7-8 “For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.” These things have happened right along and He is saying don't get excited; you've not seen anything yet.

Dan 12:1 ”. . there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time.” You also speak of Hitler and his eight million and that does not compare with Rev 9:15-16. “And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. 16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand:” that’s two hundred million to kill one third of all mankind.

 

[Eugene]

Paul teaches the Thessalonians as they the Church await for The Day of the Lord and His appearing.

When is the day of the Lord, or that time John is caught to in spirit called the Lord's Day in Revelation 4:1? Do you perceive a division of prophesy in Rev 1:8 when Jesus proclaims: "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. And Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;" the hereafter viewpoint begins with John caught up into heaven in Rev 4:1, "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." What happens then? Rev 4:2, "A throne was set in heaven, and One sat on the throne." Any idea as to Who this is a throne is set for? In Rev 4:11 the twenty-four elders say: "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

In Christ Jesus.

 

[WordsintoHarmony]

Well first about the Adolf Hitler was not about Revelation prophecy. I used this example only to show that even when things are really bad on Earth God does not suddenly take people off the Earth to keep them safe in a third Heaven. But during the great trib Christians will not endure the wrath or judgments of God. How is that possible? When Moses was in Egypt God sent 10 plagues upon this land. When God sent the 10 plagues onto Egypt the Children of Israel were spared in all 10 plagues including the Passover. The blood was put over the door post for which God by Divine acknowledgment He would pass over every place that had the blood over the door.

Even likewise during the great trib Jesus is our Blood and our redemption. When God looks upon the world in the Great trib He will see the Blood of Jesus on every believer whose has accepted Jesus His only begotten Son.

So for example when God pours out the 7 bowls these bowls will not in any way touch any believer. Rather these bowls are poured out on non believers, the wicked and rebellious that even in all these things they did not believe anyway. The Wrath of God abided them. . Thye of the Beast and His armies and all the tribes of the world of them who followed after the beast will on the Day of the Lord from His apperance with a sword He will smite in great judgment. This will conclude the war that is called “Armageddon”.

This happens in Rev chapter 19. Now in chapter 20 that follows shows us all those Saints that came out of the Great trib. These were those of the First resurrection Daniel 12 chapter 2. These were the same dead in 1Thess 4:16-17. Because this catching up is a “reunion with Christ” The Groom meets the Bride. This happens at the End of the trib to see who ’God’s people will be of the most faithful even them who gave their life for the Lord. Both alive saints and those who were dead sleeping in Christ killed for him. These are the ones at the End of the trib to be in this reunion with Christ of the supper of the lamb.

If Pre trib were correct then half of God’s people would have missed the meeting with the Lord. This would mean those who died in the trib would not have had a chance to meet Jesus in the air. The Pre trib Rapture theory would steal away this promise to receive the crown of life. They will gather with Jesus in a blink of an eye. Quickly they will be gathered at the end of the trib Matthew 24:30-31.

Jesus on the white horse is the first one to descend to the Earth. The other horses the saints were just caught up at that very moment will now follow Jesus wherever He goes and always be with Him. 1Thess 4:16-17.

This is my belief taken for now. Before I go any further I will see what others will post in their views. Thanks again Eugene for understanding. It is a nice clean debate so far. Eugene to show I have no hard feelings on our different point of views I am awarding you a like award point on your last post. Your like because of good Christian attitude during a debate discussion. I give credit where credit is due.

 

[WordsintoHarmony]

Ok I would like to ask have you heard of these things before? Do you know of the origins of Pre Trib Rapture Theology Dispensation? I heard this from 2 other Christians which then we checked this out. Pre Trib Rapture did not appear on the scene until the19th century. Margaret MacDonald with her 117 line of Bible Prophecy is among the first to depict the Rapture being a second separate event.

Other Authors took from her Prophecy to build off her 117 line. She believes Gods’ true Revelation of the End time discovered by simply believing women in the 19th century would have the answers all Christians has been waiting for. In my opinion I don’t trust that a late born teaching is suddenly the whole truth.

Back in the year 1611 was introduced the Kings James English translation Bible. When this book was done no one ever heard of Pre TRib Rapture. What did these early Christians know? What they knew is what is called today's ’Post trib Theology’ The teaching simply is Jesus only returns a second time. . There is no special event in between His second appearance.

If Tim La Hayes now were standing in the face of George Washington, Franklin, and Issac Newton then La Hayes should tell these men of God that there is a special rapture. Then Washington, Franklin and Newton would all make a U Turn. Because these men in early America defended the truth and Christian Faith American Heritage. They would not buy into such things. We can learn from our ancestors even as we learn from the 2000 year old plus book to rely in modern day society.

Pre Trib is modern day teaching. It’s not the original translation. In fact we at home read older classic commentaries where you won't find Pre Trib to be a problem. . it did not exist. The Bible told us in the latter days to take heed. I compare the traditional Christian Early American and even Anglican Early Christian that I am more agreeable with. I reject much modern day teaching in main stream churches. Jesus warned us of a falling away. . Pre Trib is a teaching mostly that millions of Christians will believe this and not be ready for the future. . for since they will believe not to be here they won't make any preparation. They will calmly go along about things. They will tell their friends I will be gone. You will not see me then. Does the Bible prove we will be here?

Please consider the book of Revelation of John on the Island of Patmos. Remember he was in the Spirit of the Lord. God used visions to share all these future Prophecy events. . It must be remembered that much allegory and symbolism is used to help us to understand those vision that take place. .

There is no Christian who can completely understand this entire book. Parts of this yes. The full unfolding of Prophecy no. For these are still future events which will happen only in God’s own timing.

Remember before Jesus was born some said He will be born in Egypt. For it is written I will call my Son out of Egypt. The other person said no He will be born in Nazareth. For it says He shall be called a Nazarene. So in BC the future of Jesus was not understood fully.

Even so Revelation symbolic allegory still has some unanswered full mysteries to be solved. But I think we are starting to get a picture in an image we can make out some of the most important aspects like who is the dragon. . Who is the first and second beast so on.

But the scroll, trumpets, and bowls are split in 33 different categories. Yet if you study Rev. the sixth seal, the seventh trumpet and the seventh bowl all happen at the end. You can't think the first six seal then the seven trumpets and last the bowl. . Rather it is a trifecta grouped to see which of these groups reveals in what order. It would be confusing if the Bible mixed up the trumpet with the bowls. Keeping them separate allows us to study each group of events.

The timing of Revelation has to be carefully examined to not in all cases to be taken literally chronologically in every passage. For we see even in the beginning of Rev One it already mentions every eye will see Him even them that pierced. That is to happen first. No that happens last. Rev. includes a number of pictures which are divided into groups in its chronological aspect timing it with symbolic and allegory understanding how to interpret each vision individually to fit in with the other visions. If this sounds confusing then know Rev. is the most disputed book in all books of the Bible.

This is why to understand End times Eschatology must be known more by clear language used in Matthew 24 and first and second Thess. It is by this clear language we can put these things more in the chronological time line. For what Jesus or Paul told us plainly we should not doubt plain language to be wrong.

It is less in question than symbolic and allegorical assembling. First n Matthew 24 the gathering takes place at the end of the Trib. You have to read 31 verse to get to the Jesus return part and yet we see the gathering just a few verses before all this happens. Look how close the gathering and his appearance in the cloud. How can this be 2 separate events? Please see clouds in Matt 24 and 1 Thess chapter 4 each has clouds. Each has a trumpet. Each has a gathering. Each is also to be the last trumpet.

If Pre Trigb was true then there would be 2 last 7 trumpets. But Rev. shows us there is just 1distinct 7th trumpet. So if one believes pre trib then needs to believe the rapture is the sixth trumpet. Which is not overly likely. Rather God has told us Matt 24 and first Thess. chapter 4 as one end time event.

Because if one can understand this as one event you can also include second Thess that agrees with these 2 books. . Paul says in 2 Thess verse 1-3. Brethen do not be troubled in your thinking of these things. For the Day of the Lord and the gathering to be with him shall not happen by any letter from any person. Neither that by any spirit nor angel. Let no man deceive you. For this day will not happen until these things happen first. This is the apostasy the falling away and next the man of perdition be revealed. Notice these verse says’ both the gathering and the Day of the Lord in the same sentence. . This agrees with Matthew 24 which these verses are almost next to each other.

Not only that it goes to show that second Thess. Is a part 2 book to answer what is being asked in chapter 1. In chapter1 the Thessalonian church though if they should die they would miss the coning of the Lord and is gathering. In in Thess. 1 Paul tells this troubled church that those who are dead in Christ are also sleeping in Christ. . That those who are dead will be caught up first then we who are alive will join them.

So in chapter 2 the Thessalonian church now says but Paul when does this happen? So Paul now answers 1 Thess chapter 4: 16-17 with the second Thess verses 1-3 that to wait for the second appearing and the gathering to meet the Lord in the air apostasy must happen first and the man of lawlessness is the second. . This means even if the rapture was a second event it cant’ happen before the Antichrist. But it's more logical to believe they are one event. Since the Bride will meet the Groom.

This is what I share now. Any more comments. Next I will share about the restrainer in second Thess. If anyone is confused on any part I have written please ask and I will try my best to clarify my post. Thanks RJ

 

[Eugene]

If Pre Trigb was true then there would be 2 last 7 trumpets. But Rev. shows us there is just 1distinct 7th trumpet. So if one believes pre trib then needs to believe the rapture is the sixth trumpet. Which is not overly likely. Rather God has told us Matt 24 and first Thess. chapter 4 as one end time event.

I would add that though John was in Spirit, saw many things shown him by Jesus' angel referenced from Rev 1:1, the Lords Day begins in Revelation Chapter Four when Jesus receives His own throne (Rev 4:2). There we hear the voice as of a trumpet (not the 7 trumpets to come) "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." John in Spirit is no longer on Patmos, and is observing things to come when our Lord is with some of the church around Him prior to any of the trumpets sounding.

When we are called to be with Jesus regardless the rank we're in, we'll be caught up not just in Spirit as John on a temporary basis but to be forever with the Lord. 1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Each succeeding cohort of believers to reach heaven will arrive there under the same circumstances; the dead in Christ, and then we which remain. I only have three such illustrations John was shown, and they are the 24 elder and the 4 beasts first (Rev 4:4 & 4:6), the great multitude (Rev 7:9), and the 144,000. (Rev 14:1); these all prior to the second half of the tribulation.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[Deborah13]

Well first about the Adolf Hitler was not about Revelation prophecy. I used this example only to show that even when things are really bad on Earth God does not suddenly take people off the Earth to keep them safe in a third Heaven. But during the great trib Christians will not endure the wrath or judgments of God. How is that possible? When Moses was in Egypt God sent 10 plagues upon this land. When God sent the 10 plagues onto Egypt the Children of Israel were spared in all 10 plagues including the Passover. The blood was put over the door post for which God by Divine acknowledgment He would pass over every place that had the blood over the door.

Even likewise during the great trib Jesus is our Blood and our redemption. When God looks upon the world in the Great trib He will see the Blood of Jesus on every believer whose has accepted Jesus His only begotten Son.

So for example when God pours out the 7 bowls these bowls will not in any way touch any believer. Rather these bowls are poured out on non believers, the wicked and rebellious that even in all these things they did not believe anyway. The Wrath of God abided them. . Thye of the Beast and His armies and all the tribes of the world of them who followed after the beast will on the Day of the Lord from His apperance with a sword He will smite in great judgment. This will conclude the war that is called “Armageddon”.

This happens in Rev chapter 19. Now in chapter 20 that follows shows us all those Saints that came out of the Great trib. These were those of the First resurrection Daniel 12 chapter 2. These were the same dead in 1Thess 4:16-17. Because this catching up is a “reunion with Christ” The Groom meets the Bride. This happens at the End of the trib to see who ’God’s people will be of the most faithful even them who gave their life for the Lord. Both alive saints and those who were dead sleeping in Christ killed for him. These are the ones at the End of the trib to be in this reunion with Christ of the supper of the lamb.

If Pre trib were correct then half of God’s people would have missed the meeting with the Lord. This would mean those who died in the trib would not have had a chance to meet Jesus in the air. The Pre trib Rapture theory would steal away this promise to receive the crown of life. They will gather with Jesus in a blink of an eye. Quickly they will be gathered at the end of the trib Matthew 24:30-31.

Jesus on the white horse is the first one to descend to the Earth. The other horses the saints were just caught up at that very moment will now follow Jesus wherever He goes and always be with Him. 1Thess 4:16-17.

Where do you see a white horse in this scripture or any other horses?

This is my belief taken for now. Before I go any further I will see what others will post in their views. Thanks again Eugene for understanding. It is a nice clean debate so far. Eugene to show I have no hard feelings on our different point of views I am awarding you a like award point on your last post. Your like because of good Christian attitude during a debate discussion. I give credit where credit is due.

 

[WordsintoHarmony]

Hi Deborah Thanks for catching my error..I meant to say that the white horse was in Rev.19

Christ on a White Horse
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.

 

[Deborah13]

Ok I would like to ask have you heard of these things before? Do you know of the origins of Pre Trib Rapture Theology Dispensation? I heard this from 2 other Christians which then we checked this out. Pre Trib Rapture did not appear on the scene until the19th century. Margaret MacDonald with her 117 line of Bible Prophecy is among the first to depict the Rapture being a second separate event.

Other Authors took from her Prophecy to build off her 117 line. She believes Gods’ true Revelation of the End time discovered by simply believing women in the 19th century would have the answers all Christians has been waiting for. In my opinion I don’t trust that a late born teaching is suddenly the whole truth.

Back in the year 1611 was introduced the Kings James English translation Bible. When this book was done no one ever heard of Pre TRib Rapture. What did these early Christians know? What they knew is what is called today's ’Post trib Theology’ The teaching simply is Jesus only returns a second time. . There is no special event in between His second appearance.

If Tim La Hayes now were standing in the face of George Washington, Franklin, and Issac Newton then La Hayes should tell these men of God that there is a special rapture. Then Washington, Franklin and Newton would all make a U Turn. Because these men in early America defended the truth and Christian Faith American Heritage. They would not buy into such things. We can learn from our ancestors even as we learn from the 2000 year old plus book to rely in modern day society.

Pre Trib is modern day teaching. It’s not the original translation. In fact we at home read older classic commentaries where you won't find Pre Trib to be a problem. . it did not exist. The Bible told us in the latter days to take heed. I compare the traditional Christian Early American and even Anglican Early Christian that I am more agreeable with. I reject much modern day teaching in main stream churches. Jesus warned us of a falling away. . Pre Trib is a teaching mostly that millions of Christians will believe this and not be ready for the future. . for since they will believe not to be here they won't make any preparation. They will calmly go along about things. They will tell their friends I will be gone. You will not see me then. Does the Bible prove we will be here?

Please consider the book of Revelation of John on the Island of Patmos. Remember he was in the Spirit of the Lord. God used visions to share all these future Prophecy events. . It must be remembered that much allegory and symbolism is used to help us to understand those vision that take place. .

There is no Christian who can completely understand this entire book. Parts of this yes. The full unfolding of Prophecy no. For these are still future events which will happen only in God’s own timing.

Remember before Jesus was born some said He will be born in Egypt. For it is written I will call my Son out of Egypt. The other person said no He will be born in Nazareth. For it says He shall be called a Nazarene. So in BC the future of Jesus was not understood fully.

Even so Revelation symbolic allegory still has some unanswered full mysteries to be solved. But I think we are starting to get a picture in an image we can make out some of the most important aspects like who is the dragon. . Who is the first and second beast so on.

But the scroll, trumpets, and bowls are split in 33 different categories. Yet if you study Rev. the sixth seal, the seventh trumpet and the seventh bowl all happen at the end. You can't think the first six seal then the seven trumpets and last the bowl. . Rather it is a trifecta grouped to see which of these groups reveals in what order. It would be confusing if the Bible mixed up the trumpet with the bowls. Keeping them separate allows us to study each group of events.

The timing of Revelation has to be carefully examined to not in all cases to be taken literally chronologically in every passage. For we see even in the beginning of Rev One it already mentions every eye will see Him even them that pierced. That is to happen first. No that happens last. Rev. includes a number of pictures which are divided into groups in its chronological aspect timing it with symbolic and allegory understanding how to interpret each vision individually to fit in with the other visions. If this sounds confusing then know Rev. is the most disputed book in all books of the Bible.

This is why to understand End times Eschatology must be known more by clear language used in Matthew 24 and first and second Thess. It is by this clear language we can put these things more in the chronological time line. For what Jesus or Paul told us plainly we should not doubt plain language to be wrong.

It is less in question than symbolic and allegorical assembling. First n Matthew 24 the gathering takes place at the end of the Trib. You have to read 31 verse to get to the Jesus return part and yet we see the gathering just a few verses before all this happens. Look how close the gathering and his appearance in the cloud. How can this be 2 separate events? Please see clouds in Matt 24 and 1 Thess chapter 4 each has clouds. Each has a trumpet. Each has a gathering. Each is also to be the last trumpet.

Where does Matthew 24 say it is the 'last' trumpet?
Not that this may be true that it is the 'last' trumpet, just pointing out that it doesn't say that.

If Pre Trigb was true then there would be 2 last 7 trumpets. But Rev. shows us there is just 1distinct 7th trumpet. So if one believes pre trib then needs to believe the rapture is the sixth trumpet. Which is not overly likely. Rather God has told us Matt 24 and first Thess. chapter 4 as one end time event.

Because if one can understand this as one event you can also include second Thess that agrees with these 2 books. . Paul says in 2 Thess verse 1-3. Brethen do not be troubled in your thinking of these things. For the Day of the Lord and the gathering to be with him shall not happen by any letter from any person. Neither that by any spirit nor angel. Let no man deceive you. For this day will not happen until these things happen first. This is the apostasy the falling away and next the man of perdition be revealed. Notice these verse says’ both the gathering and the Day of the Lord in the same sentence. . This agrees with Matthew 24 which these verses are almost next to each other.

Not only that it goes to show that second Thess. Is a part 2 book to answer what is being asked in chapter 1. In chapter1 the Thessalonian church though if they should die they would miss the coning of the Lord and is gathering. In in Thess. 1 Paul tells this troubled church that those who are dead in Christ are also sleeping in Christ. . That those who are dead will be caught up first then we who are alive will join them.

So in chapter 2 the Thessalonian church now says but Paul when does this happen? So Paul now answers 1 Thess chapter 4: 16-17 with the second Thess verses 1-3 that to wait for the second appearing and the gathering to meet the Lord in the air apostasy must happen first and the man of lawlessness is the second. . This means even if the rapture was a second event it cant’ happen before the Antichrist. But it's more logical to believe they are one event. Since the Bride will meet the Groom.

This is what I share now. Any more comments. Next I will share about the restrainer in second Thess. If anyone is confused on any part I have written please ask and I will try my best to clarify my post. Thanks RJ

 

[WordsintoHarmony]

Deborah, thanks for asking. Well to understand what is happening in Mathew 24 is what the Disciples were asking Jesus. Jesus now tell us these things when shall be the End of the Age and what are those signs? What will be the signs of your appearing in Matthew 24

The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age
3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

See the disciples asked a 2 part question.. The signs at the End of the age and even those signs of your second appearing. It is important to know Jesus appearing includes the End of the Age. Because it is that time which Jesus appears the Second time. Certainly with no mistake Jesus stands before them.

Jesus begins to explain the signs but even He told us yet it is not the end. He indicates these are not the last signs. But Jesus warns us we will go into Tribulation. Verse 21 shows us there were never days as these even till the beginning and never will there be again for the elects sake these days will be shortened.

Why do these days need to be shortened? Much because of God's judgments in Revelation first trumpet for example burns up 1/3 grass, trees, mountains, creatures in the seas and when wormwood comes down more men will die. So because of these things these days must be shortened 'only for the Elect sake God's chosen people.' We are also of course not to listen to those who call themselves Jesus or claim He has returned to us. Because then we are told for certain Jesus comes as lightning from east to west. Meaning we will not miss this.

Now we are directed immediately after those days. The sun is darkened and the moon shall not give its light. The stars are fallen and the Heavens are shaken. These are four main signs Sun, moon, stars and shaken of Heavens. This is also Matt 29:29 which is the Sixth seal in Revelation with these same 4 signs. Don’t let Sackcloth and blood moon confuse these to be different. Cause once you study sackcloth and blood moon you will see they are Matt. 24:29 Sixth seal same 4 signs.

Now the difference though is Matthew 24 shares the gathering being caught up aspect. Where the sixth seal shows the wrath aspect. So we see then these 4 signs is both a day of gathering to the Lord Supper of the lamb and even of great Judgment sixth seal. The sixth seal and Seventh trumpet happen about the same time.

Because if you read the first four trumpets notice the fourth trumpet angel darkens the sun, moon and the stars. The fourth trumpet compliments why in the sixth seal why these bodies were darkened. But Jesus can't return on the fourth trumpet but only on the seventh.

Matthew 24:29

The Coming of the Son of Man
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Rev. 6:12-17

Sixth Seal: Cosmic Disturbances
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold,[e] there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon[f] became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders,[g] the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Rev.11: 15-19

Seventh Trumpet: The Kingdom Proclaimed
15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms[f] of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,[g]
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant[h] was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

Finally there are 7 scrolls or 7 seals. 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls. . These 7 Judgments speak of God's completeness as God has used in Revelation by the number 7 to see His completeness who God is and how God will complete. Even the Sabbath Day of rest completes the six day creation. . So if Matthew 24 seeing Jesus in the clouds was not the Seventh and last would make Jesus incomplete of fullness. But Jesus does return on the seventh trumpet to complete all these judgments. . That's why Matt 24 and 1Thess 4 speak of the same last trumpet. God tells us more than once even has God told us more than 100 times Genesis 1:1 in The Beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth.

Psalm 8:3

3 When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers,
The moon and the stars, which You have ordained,

Does it mean God made the Earth more than once? But God told us over and over as it is important to know God created the Earth. So God also told us several times of this trumpet gathering and the Day of the Lord more than once so as we can compare in each book they will always agree on these events.. .

This also proves in every author of every book of the Bible God lives forever through all ages speaking His word over and over again. For God never ever conflicts himself.

I hope this was not confusing. Bible prophecy there is a lot to study. And I mean a lot. This is no over night study anyone to understand . I think because of posting forums I constantly like you and the others keep reading the Bible to learn more. Because some challenges I keep looking for answers. If I am wrong and especially and totally wrong yes I will confess and admit so. For I have been wrong many times and which is why I need to keep studying to learn by mistakes. Fall of the horse weep a little time. Dust ourselves off and get back on and ride. If we don’t then we don’t have Faith in God. For we must trust in God even when we temporarily get knocked down. Making mistakes even in my case helped me to improve more. If I thought I had been always right I would believe as I did 15 years ago and would never get anywhere. Who proves me wrong? God does when scriptures shows. Who is proven right? God. For this is God's Word. Things will not happen our way but God’s way.

 

[Deborah13]

Deborah, thanks for asking. Well to understand what is happening in Mathew 24 is what the Disciples were asking Jesus. Jesus now tell us these things when shall be the End of the Age and what are those signs? What will be the signs of your appearing in Matthew 24

The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age
3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

See the disciples asked a 2 part question.. The signs at the End of the age and even those signs of your second appearing. It is important to know Jesus appearing includes the End of the Age. Because it is that time which Jesus appears the Second time. Certainly with no mistake Jesus stands before them.

Jesus begins to explain the signs but even He told us yet it is not the end. He indicates these are not the last signs. But Jesus warns us we will go into Tribulation. Verse 21 shows us there were never days as these even till the beginning and never will there be again for the elects sake these days will be shortened.

Why do these days need to be shortened? Much because of God's judgments in Revelation first trumpet for example burns up 1/3 grass, trees, mountains, creatures in the seas and when wormwood comes down more men will die. So because of these things these days must be shortened 'only for the Elect sake God's chosen people.' We are also of course not to listen to those who call themselves Jesus or claim He has returned to us. Because then we are told for certain Jesus comes as lightning from east to west. Meaning we will not miss this.

Now we are directed immediately after those days. The sun is darkened and the moon shall not give its light. The stars are fallen and the Heavens are shaken. These are four main signs Sun, moon, stars and shaken of Heavens. This is also Matt 29:29 which is the Sixth seal in Revelation with these same 4 signs. Don’t let Sackcloth and blood moon confuse these to be different. Cause once you study sackcloth and blood moon you will see they are Matt. 24:29 Sixth seal same 4 signs.

Now the difference though is Matthew 24 shares the gathering being caught up aspect. Where the sixth seal shows the wrath aspect. So we see then these 4 signs is both a day of gathering to the Lord Supper of the lamb and even of great Judgment sixth seal. The sixth seal and Seventh trumpet happen about the same time.

Because if you read the first four trumpets notice the fourth trumpet angel darkens the sun, moon and the stars. The fourth trumpet compliments why in the sixth seal why these bodies were darkened. But Jesus can't return on the fourth trumpet but only on the seventh.

Matthew 24:29

The Coming of the Son of Man
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Rev. 6:12-17

Sixth Seal: Cosmic Disturbances
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold,[e] there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon[f] became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders,[g] the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Rev.11: 15-19

Seventh Trumpet: The Kingdom Proclaimed
15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms[f] of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,[g]
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant[h] was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

Finally there are 7 scrolls or 7 seals. 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls. . These 7 Judgments speak of God's completeness as God has used in Revelation by the number 7 to see His completeness who God is and how God will complete. Even the Sabbath Day of rest completes the six day creation. . So if Matthew 24 seeing Jesus in the clouds was not the Seventh and last would make Jesus incomplete of fullness. But Jesus does return on the seventh trumpet to complete all these judgments. . That's why Matt 24 and 1Thess 4 speak of the same last trumpet. God tells us more than once even has God told us more than 100 times Genesis 1:1 in The Beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth.

Psalm 8:3

3 When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers,
The moon and the stars, which You have ordained,

Does it mean God made the Earth more than once? But God told us over and over as it is important to know God created the Earth. So God also told us several times of this trumpet gathering and the Day of the Lord more than once so as we can compare in each book they will always agree on these events.. .

This also proves in every author of every book of the Bible God lives forever through all ages speaking His word over and over again. For God never ever conflicts himself.

I hope this was not confusing. Bible prophecy there is a lot to study. And I mean a lot. This is no over night study anyone to understand . I think because of posting forums I constantly like you and the others keep reading the Bible to learn more. Because some challenges I keep looking for answers. If I am wrong and especially and totally wrong yes I will confess and admit so. For I have been wrong many times and which is why I need to keep studying to learn by mistakes. Fall of the horse weep a little time. Dust ourselves off and get back on and ride. If we don’t then we don’t have Faith in God. For we must trust in God even when we temporarily get knocked down. Making mistakes even in my case helped me to improve more. If I thought I had been always right I would believe as I did 15 years ago and would never get anywhere. Who proves me wrong? God does when scriptures shows. Who is proven right? God. For this is God's Word. Things will not happen our way but God’s way.

Thank you for your post, I'm sure you put a lot of time into it.
So Matthew 24, does not say 'the last trump'. So my point was that if we say a scripture says certain things that it doesn't, then I think we should rather say we believe that a certain verse is saying something or is saying the same thing as another verse.
I have to watch this myself, that I don't say something as fact when it is really my opinion or interpretation of a scripture and then add my argument as to why, preferably with scripture.

I do understand your argument.

Blessings Deborah

 

[for_his_glory]

I use to also believe in Pre-Trib until something that was mentioned didn't set well with me. I'm a digger and want to know truth so went to the scriptures they used for support and found them to be interpreted wrong. Just because they call themselves Preaches and write books doesn't mean they truly know the truth. I never ask anyone to agree with me, but I do ask that you allow the Holy Spirit teach you by the scriptures that are given. This is why it is so important to study for yourself comparing scripture with scripture to come to all truth and understanding through the Holy Spirit.


The seven year great tribulation, which is not found anywhere in scripture, was derived by mans misinterpretation of Daniel 9:24-27. This is what the Bible clearly reveals about the seventy weeks. From vs.24 to vs.27 was seventy weeks or 490 days beginning with Ezra, (Ref: Ezra Chapter 3-6), rebuilding the temple to the time of the Messiah (Jesus Christ) being fulfilled in his birth, death and resurrection. In a sense it was a literal and spiritual temple that was being built. Ezra was teaching the people of the Spiritual temple of God that indwelled in all that believed in God and of the coming of Messiah. There was actually a five hundred year span from Ezra till the birth of Jesus that God shut himself off from National Israel because of their transgressions towards the Lord, but saved a remnant that would believe in the coming of Messiah, (Ref: Isaiah Chapter 10), as still today, God waits for National Israel (all people of the world) to repent and believe in the name of Jesus.

Daniel 9:24-27 the Vision of the Seventy Weeks

Vs. 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

This verse shows us that the timing from Ezra to the cross was 490 days as within that time Ezra was reestablishing the law in Jerusalem until Jesus had fulfilled the end of transgression, made an end to sin, made reconciliation for iniquity and bring everlasting righteousness and to seal up the prophecy to fulfill the law through the cross.

Vs. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

From the time of the cross, which also means the last days, which includes what some like to separate and call the Great Tribulation, which is not mentioned anywhere in scripture and is not a separate event after the elect of God are caught up, but as the last days so we are in tribulation times until the end of the world as we know it; (Ref: Acts 2:17; Hebrews 1:1,2; Matthew 24:4-31; Mark 13:24-31; Luke 21:5-36). These are just some of the scriptures that support that we will go through all things of Revelation Chapters 6-21 (Please read these chapters). Everyone will have opportunity to come unto salvation through Jesus Christ if they would only repent, but when Satan is cast into the lake of fire forever after the second battle, which will be explained later in this chapter, that will come out of Jerusalem Gods judgment will be upon his people and the books will be opened at that time. No secret rapture as the saints of God are still here at this time.

Matthew 25:10 and while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

Vs.26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

After 434 years that end in the year AD29 shall Messiah be cut off. Jesus was crucified after he was baptized in AD 29 three and a half years later. Jesus was cut off (killed) by the people of the prince, which means National Israel or other words the Pharisees, Sanhedrin and the high priest that destroy the city and the sanctuary (meaning Christ) and the end thereof shall be with a flood (Gods wrath) that will put an end to abominations by desolation or in other words a ruin to evil deeds. Daniel 9:27 explains the definitions of desolation of abominations or the ruin of evil deeds. There is no actual Desolation of Abominations where the so-called Antichrist will take a literal throne, but the desolation will be when the final Pope tries to take his throne in Jerusalem, (Ref: Daniel 11:36-45). Gods’ word never defines one great Antichrist, but says there are many antichrists. The seven years that some call the seven year tribulation means three and a half years of Jesus teaching before he was crucified and three and a half years of Stephen teaching before he was stoned to death, which took place after Jesus was taken up to heaven.

1John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

2Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Thessalonians 2:6 and now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Thessalonians 2:7 for the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Thessalonians 2:8 and then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Thessalonians 2:10 and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Thessalonians 2:11 and for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Vs.27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The 70th seven began with Christ baptism in AD 29 and three years later at the end of the first half of the 70th seven sacrifices and offering ceased because Christ hung on the cross as he was the final sacrifice that fulfilled the law. From the giving of the law in 458BC when Ezra went to establish the law, or to rebuild the Spiritual city right up to the cross were the first 69 sevens. The 70th seven is from the time of the cross until Jesus comes and gathers his bride as they prepare to stand in the Holy place until the overspreading of abominations he will make desolate, or make an end to all that would not repent.

A rapture as some like to call it, but the Bible calls it being caught up to meet Jesus in the air, will take place, but not the way others are teaching it to be before a great tribulation and no one will know when, not even Jesus himself will know. There is no mention in scripture of a great seven year tribulation as we will always have tribulations until Jesus comes for us. There is no literal 1000-year reign with Christ either, because we reign with Christ the first time we ask him into our heart as we become joint heirs with him. We will face much tribulation before Jesus returns as Gods word says this world will wax worse and those who endure until the end are those who will be saved, which means the end of all things this world will go through before the new heaven and new Jerusalem can be ushered down from heaven.

Matthew 24:36 but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Matthew 24:37 but as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Deuteronomy 4:30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
Matthew 24:21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Matthew 24:13 but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

(For more teaching on this click on my website at the end of this reply and then click on Second Coming of Christ)