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Tongues As A Sign For Unbelievers.

Jacob62

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1 Cor. 14:22, "Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not."

Yet, Pentecostal tongue speakers do so unto each other in their churches and worship. Their learning institutions even teach them to do so. Paul spoke the Word of God specifying tongues are spoken for Unbelievers. This means the Pentecostals reviewing the tongues from others are themselves Unbelievers.

The truth of God's Word is so powerful, it is demonstrated even when it is violated. When Pentecostals speak tongues to each other, it is being spoken to other Unbelieving Pentecostals.
 

Serving Zion

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1 Cor. 14:22, "Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not."

Yet, Pentecostal tongue speakers do so unto each other in their churches and worship. Their learning institutions even teach them to do so. Paul spoke the Word of God specifying tongues are spoken for Unbelievers. This means the Pentecostals reviewing the tongues from others are themselves Unbelievers.

The truth of God's Word is so powerful, it is demonstrated even when it is violated. When Pentecostals speak tongues to each other, it is being spoken to other Unbelieving Pentecostals.
That's not the tongues of angels, it's just babble.
 
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1 Cor. 14:22, "Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not."

Yet, Pentecostal tongue speakers do so unto each other in their churches and worship. Their learning institutions even teach them to do so. Paul spoke the Word of God specifying tongues are spoken for Unbelievers. This means the Pentecostals reviewing the tongues from others are themselves Unbelievers.

The truth of God's Word is so powerful, it is demonstrated even when it is violated. When Pentecostals speak tongues to each other, it is being spoken to other Unbelieving Pentecostals.
The trouble is taking one random verse without its context is that false teaching results. Paul's quote of Isaiah explains the reason, which our friend decides to ignore.
 

Hopeful

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1 Cor. 14:22, "Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not."

Yet, Pentecostal tongue speakers do so unto each other in their churches and worship. Their learning institutions even teach them to do so. Paul spoke the Word of God specifying tongues are spoken for Unbelievers. This means the Pentecostals reviewing the tongues from others are themselves Unbelievers.

The truth of God's Word is so powerful, it is demonstrated even when it is violated. When Pentecostals speak tongues to each other, it is being spoken to other Unbelieving Pentecostals.
There is more than one use for the gift of tongues.
 

JLB

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1 Cor. 14:22, "Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not."

Yet, Pentecostal tongue speakers do so unto each other in their churches and worship. Their learning institutions even teach them to do so. Paul spoke the Word of God specifying tongues are spoken for Unbelievers. This means the Pentecostals reviewing the tongues from others are themselves Unbelievers.

The truth of God's Word is so powerful, it is demonstrated even when it is violated. When Pentecostals speak tongues to each other, it is being spoken to other Unbelieving Pentecostals.

Speaking in tongues is encouraged, and in a church service it is good for edification of the Church when interpretation follows.


I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification. 1 Corinthians 14:5





JLB
 

Serving Zion

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Speaking in tongues is encouraged, and in a church service it is good for edification of the Church when interpretation follows.


I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification. 1 Corinthians 14:5





JLB
Problem is that babble isn't actually language that can be interpreted. Best one can do is speak a vision of their own heart (Jeremiah 23:31-32). So it is double heresy: one lies by uttering babble that isn't actually a language, saying it is divine words of angels, another lies by speaking the vision of their heart and expecting everyone to believe that they have heard an actual language, then the first gives him support for whatever he said (doesn't matter what it was, because the interpretation was already support for him in the first place) and the whole crowd being in fear of condescension allows it to happen because they don't have the strength to stand against the tide and risk being shut out of the church. So the whole church goes under the spirit that deceived them when they reached for the gifts that had not been given by God.
 
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You ought to explain yourself.
It's like telling others how they should play a violin without being able to play himself.

When a person spends his formative years in a religious system after receiving Christ, and that religious system drums into the person that certain spiritual gifts are not for today, then it doesn't matter what others who have not been conditioned that way say contrary to the conditioning, the person will not believe it. In a sense they are more loyal to the conditioning within their religious organisation, than to Christ and the Word of God itself. Their interpretation of Scripture is coloured by what the religious organisation say they should interpret it.

So if the religious organisation says that tongues is not for today, and that those who speak or pray in tongue is doing mere meaningless babbling, then they will believe that, not because they have come to that conclusion by reading Scripture, but have been told that by the religious teachers in the organisation who dictate to them how the Bible should be interpreted.

This goes right along with B F Skinner's "Classical Conditioning" where if someone is repeatedly given reinforcement for believing that tongues is not for today, he will gain satisfaction by opposing tongues. What will keep him stuck in that belief would be the negative punishment that he would receive from his religious overlords if he decided that tongues is for today and actually received the gift for himself.

This has been the exact experience of those who have received the gift of tongues in their church, with the result that they have been kicked out, and all the people whom they thought were close friends didn't want to know them any longer. This is because the friends still in the religious system would have been conditioned to believe that continuing to associate with someone who had committed the "sin" of speaking in tongues would bring the same negative punishment on themselves.

This is the problem with religious organisations. If one does the "right" thing they receive positive reinforcement which makes them feel good. If they do something they "shouldn't" they receive the cold prickly of negative punishment which makes them feel condemned and depressed. This is the result of following a religious system instead of being free to follow the Lord, who loves them unconditionally, regardless of what they decide to do. Those who follow the Lord are content in Him to love others and are free from the "responsibilities" and "shoulds" that are integral to religious organisations.
 

Serving Zion

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It's like telling others how they should play a violin without being able to play himself.

When a person spends his formative years in a religious system after receiving Christ, and that religious system drums into the person that certain spiritual gifts are not for today, then it doesn't matter what others who have not been conditioned that way say contrary to the conditioning, the person will not believe it. In a sense they are more loyal to the conditioning within their religious organisation, than to Christ and the Word of God itself. Their interpretation of Scripture is coloured by what the religious organisation say they should interpret it.

So if the religious organisation says that tongues is not for today, and that those who speak or pray in tongue is doing mere meaningless babbling, then they will believe that, not because they have come to that conclusion by reading Scripture, but have been told that by the religious teachers in the organisation who dictate to them how the Bible should be interpreted.

This goes right along with B F Skinner's "Classical Conditioning" where if someone is repeatedly given reinforcement for believing that tongues is not for today, he will gain satisfaction by opposing tongues. What will keep him stuck in that belief would be the negative punishment that he would receive from his religious overlords if he decided that tongues is for today and actually received the gift for himself.

This has been the exact experience of those who have received the gift of tongues in their church, with the result that they have been kicked out, and all the people whom they thought were close friends didn't want to know them any longer. This is because the friends still in the religious system would have been conditioned to believe that continuing to associate with someone who had committed the "sin" of speaking in tongues would bring the same negative punishment on themselves.

This is the problem with religious organisations. If one does the "right" thing they receive positive reinforcement which makes them feel good. If they do something they "shouldn't" they receive the cold prickly of negative punishment which makes them feel condemned and depressed. This is the result of following a religious system instead of being free to follow the Lord, who loves them unconditionally, regardless of what they decide to do. Those who follow the Lord are content in Him to love others and are free from the "responsibilities" and "shoulds" that are integral to religious organisations.
Ok, good explanation. Can't see how it's relevant to me, but as a general statement it's pretty well in line with how those who think they are speaking in tongues come to do so when in fact they are just babbling in order to fit in with the church's expectations of them. As Jesus said "if the blind leads the blind they'll both fall into a pit" and that's what we see happening in those cases. They don't know what it means to speak in tongues, but they've seen people babbling and saying that's the speaking in tongues, so until they do the same thing then they're seen by their church as lacking that gift of the spirit. So they learn to babble and eventually end up falling into the pit because "anyone from the outside walking into their congregation having not believed or been taught, will think they are crazy" (1 Corinthians 14:23, Matthew 7:21-23).
 

JLB

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Problem is that babble isn't actually language that can be interpreted. Best one can do is speak a vision of their own heart (Jeremiah 23:31-32). So it is double heresy: one lies by uttering babble that isn't actually a language, saying it is divine words of angels, another lies by speaking the vision of their heart and expecting everyone to believe that they have heard an actual language, then the first gives him support for whatever he said (doesn't matter what it was, because the interpretation was already support for him in the first place) and the whole crowd being in fear of condescension allows it to happen because they don't have the strength to stand against the tide and risk being shut out of the church. So the whole church goes under the spirit that deceived them when they reached for the gifts that had not been given by God.

I take it you don’t believe that speaking in tongues is for today?
 

JLB

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So if the religious organisation says that tongues is not for today, and that those who speak or pray in tongue is doing mere meaningless babbling, then they will believe that, not because they have come to that conclusion by reading Scripture, but have been told that by the religious teachers in the organisation who dictate to them how the Bible should be interpreted.

Paul calls this a stronghold, a fortified position that exalts itself against the knowledge (truth) of God.

It hinders the person from receiving God’s truth.


For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ. 2 Corinthians 10:4-5





JLB
 

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Like anything else in the bible. If we don't follow God's model of whatever is discussed, we are simply making up what we want to believe and do.
It has become an abomination of intolerable sin to experience, as the Christian culture continues sliding down a path of Matthew 7:13-14

The Narrow and Wide Gates​

13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Proverbs 14:12

" There is a way which seems right to a man,
But its end is the way of death."​


2 Timothy 3:5​

"holding to a form of [a]godliness although they have denied its power; avoid such people as these."

2 Timothy 3:7​

always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

We can all believe what we want about speaking tongues or any other topics, but there is a day coming when we stand before God or Christ and our life will be laid bare before us for judgement for good before Christ, or before God for condemnation.

Matthew 7:21-23​

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [a]miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; leave Me, you who practice lawlessness.’



https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Timothy+3&version=NASB
 
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Ok, good explanation. Can't see how it's relevant to me, but as a general statement it's pretty well in line with how those who think they are speaking in tongues come to do so when in fact they are just babbling in order to fit in with the church's expectations of them. As Jesus said "if the blind leads the blind they'll both fall into a pit" and that's what we see happening in those cases. They don't know what it means to speak in tongues, but they've seen people babbling and saying that's the speaking in tongues, so until they do the same thing then they're seen by their church as lacking that gift of the spirit. So they learn to babble and eventually end up falling into the pit because "anyone from the outside walking into their congregation having not believed or been taught, will think they are crazy" (1 Corinthians 14:23, Matthew 7:21-23).
What about those who don't belong to a church but fellowship in informal environments, and do all their praying in tongues in their private prayer rooms where they are praying directly to God and no one else?

Have you ever been in a room full of Chinese people speaking Mandarin? Or Indians speaking Hindi? When I had a Latvian girl friend years ago, I would visit her family and they would all be speaking Latvian to one another. It all sounded like babbling to me, so what's the difference?
 
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Like anything else in the bible. If we don't follow God's model of whatever is discussed, we are simply making up what we want to believe and do.
It has become an abomination of intolerable sin to experience, as the Christian culture continues sliding down a path of Matthew 7:13-14

The Narrow and Wide Gates​

13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Proverbs 14:12​

" There is a way which seems right to a man,​

But its end is the way of death."​


2 Timothy 3:5​

"holding to a form of [a]godliness although they have denied its power; avoid such people as these."

2 Timothy 3:7​

always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

We can all believe what we want about speaking tongues or any other topics, but there is a day coming when we stand before God or Christ and our life will be laid bare before us for judgement for good before Christ, or before God for condemnation.

Matthew 7:21-23​

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [a]miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; leave Me, you who practice lawlessness.’



https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Timothy+3&version=NASB
That shows the difference between "churchianity" and true Christianity, and the difference between performance-based religion and grace-based Christianity.

Tongues, prophecy, and casting out of demons is secondary, because "churchianity", performance-based religious people can make claims of prophesying, casting out of demons and doing mighty works, mainly they are doing these things because of the expectation of their mentors and church leaders.

True grace-based Christians rest in the love of Jesus, and allow Him to work through them, so that when they prophesy, cast out demons and do mighty works, it is the Holy Spirit doing it through them, so that when they stand before the Lord in the Judgment, all they will say is "We trusted your word when you said, 'by grace are you saved through faith, not of yourselves, but it is the gift of God; not of works lest any should boast.'" And we just rested in Your love and allowed you to work through us according to Your will."
 
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Serving Zion

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I take it you don’t believe that speaking in tongues is for today?
Well that's wrong. I'm just saying that the way it's done in every way I've seen it is not the same as the scriptural description, it's just babble.
 

Serving Zion

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What about those who don't belong to a church but fellowship in informal environments, and do all their praying in tongues in their private prayer rooms where they are praying directly to God and no one else?
How could I offer an opinion on a thing I haven't seen? Is that the same?

Have you ever been in a room full of Chinese people speaking Mandarin?
I don't remember it. I've been in a church service spoken in Mandarin though.

Or Indians speaking Hindi?
Yes I can remember that.

When I had a Latvian girl friend years ago, I would visit her family and they would all be speaking Latvian to one another. It all sounded like babbling to me, so what's the difference?
It's a real language and each word has a meaning. It's not just random sounds.
 
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How could I offer an opinion on a thing I haven't seen? Is that the same?


I don't remember it. I've been in a church service spoken in Mandarin though.


Yes I can remember that.


It's a real language and each word has a meaning. It's not just random sounds.
But they all sound like random sounds to someone who doesn't understand the language. I have a friend who spoke in a tongue that seems to have some disconnected sounds in it and very simple. I just wondered if it was a language at all. However, in a prayer meeting where there was a visiting Ghanaian, The visitor stopped the meeting and told my friend that he was praising God in his own village dialect. I knew the Ghanaian guy, and he was a very pleasant, godly and enthusiastic believer, and was excited to hear someone praising God in his own particular dialect. He and I knew that there was no way my friend could ever have known that dialect, and all he was doing was "babbling" in tongues as you describe Pentecostals doing, and yet he was speaking a particular understood language at that time.

So we cannot know whether the "babbling" that is heard in Pentecostal meetings is or isn't language that can be understood if a native speaker of the language is present.

The only reason why you think that Mandarin, Hindi, or Latvian isn't babbling is that you already know they are understandable languages. But if you were in a Pentecostal meeting and a European person who had not learned New Zealand Maori was speaking in that language while praising God in tongues, you wouldn't know that he was doing anything else but "babbling".

I watched a movie made in Africa. I think it was called "The Gods Must Be Joking". It featured an African Pygmy having all sorts of adventures. He spoke in his own language and it didn't sound like a language at all, with just grunts and clicks. Yet it was a definite dialect of that African language.

I believe that many kinds of tongues spoken in Pentecostal churches are understandable world languages, but are not understood because there are no native speakers of those languages present.

As far as "angelic" languages are concerned, it is important to note that Paul said "If I speak in the languages of angels and have not love, I am just a useless noise." He did not use the word when, so there is no indication that he viewed tongues as the language of angels. So to say that tongues is or is not angelic language is building a belief on a very shaky foundation.
 

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But they all sound like random sounds to someone who doesn't understand the language.
Not necessarily. Children don't understand vocabulary until they learn it, but they somehow know what's being said anyway, because communication is the conveying of ideas and they can read the body language to understand the effect that the words are having. So even though they don't know what's being said, they know what the impact of the words is, and that's why Paul says "I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others" because words that aren't understood are meaningless.

That also happens to be exactly what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14:9:

unless you utter speech that is intelligible, how will what is spoken be understood? For you will be talking to the wind! (TLV).

I have a friend who spoke in a tongue that seems to have some disconnected sounds in it and very simple. I just wondered if it was a language at all. However, in a prayer meeting where there was a visiting Ghanaian, The visitor stopped the meeting and told my friend that he was praising God in his own village dialect. I knew the Ghanaian guy, and he was a very pleasant, godly and enthusiastic believer, and was excited to hear someone praising God in his own particular dialect. He and I knew that there was no way my friend could ever have known that dialect, and all he was doing was "babbling" in tongues as you describe Pentecostals doing, and yet he was speaking a particular understood language at that time.
Yes I am sure it does happen (JLB, look), and I've heard a similar testimony. What the difference is in the exercise, whether it is according to scripture. Paul warns in 1 Corinthians 14:23, that if an unbeliever comes in and sees them speaking in tongues (without an interpreter), they're are going to look crazy. There's plenty of memes mocking it if you search them out on YouTube.


Heres a pretty good video I just found that I think may be useful. What he's saying is that there is a powerful testimony and sign for unbelievers when the tongues are done right (1 Corinthians 14:22) but there's also danger in the abuse of the gift, that does harm to the ministry (1 Corinthians 14:23).

So we cannot know whether the "babbling" that is heard in Pentecostal meetings is or isn't language that can be understood if a native speaker of the language is present.

That's the purpose of 1 Corinthians 14:28, don't you agree? Then why do we see so many churches not observing it? The answer can only be that they don't want to be deprived of the glory of thinking that they are exercising a heavenly gift. ... Unless you might be able to suggest a different answer?

The only reason why you think that Mandarin, Hindi, or Latvian isn't babbling is that you already know they are understandable languages.

Well as I said, the words that are being spoken do have a definite meaning and the person who is using them knows what is being conveyed by them. The difference is that neither the speaker or the hearer understands what is being said because it quite literally is just babble.

There's a technical term for it actually, "glossolalia". If you want to see a video about that, I'd recommend the first 2m 15seconds of this one:


But if you were in a Pentecostal meeting and a European person who had not learned New Zealand Maori was speaking in that language while praising God in tongues, you wouldn't know that he was doing anything else but "babbling".

The example I mentioned above is of someone who told me a story of her friend who went to a Marae and didn't know how to speak Maori and she prayed before she got there and she just spoke English to them. Afterward she was told that she had spoken the most fluent Maori they had ever heard and they were all amazed. As I said in the first place though, there's a visible difference between someone using language that has meaning as compared to someone speaking gibberish. You can see in the body language whether the words are carrying meaning to one or another.

I believe that many kinds of tongues spoken in Pentecostal churches are understandable world languages, but are not understood because there are no native speakers of those languages present.

Why is it allowed to happen though, when scripture so clearly tells us to not do it?

As far as "angelic" languages are concerned, it is important to note that Paul said "If I speak in the languages of angels and have not love, I am just a useless noise." He did not use the word when, so there is no indication that he viewed tongues as the language of angels.

He said "If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels but have not love, then..." In doing that he is saying that whenever he does speak in the tongues of men and of angels, unless it is with love, then...

The fact that he is speaking in the tongue of a man while he says it, shows that he does in fact speak in the tongues of men from time to time. In order to recognise when he is speaking in the tongues of angels, one first must be born again because "no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again" and it is not as though we don't ever hear the tongues of angels, because "are they not all ministering spirits sent out for service to those who are Inheriting salvation?". Therefore we have a share among them when we speak, for "in my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so I would not have told you. So I go now in order to prepare a place for you", and "you have not come to a mountain that can be touched (or a crowd speaking gibberish, as it were) but to the heavenly city and a throng of angels".

So to say that tongues is or is not angelic language is building a belief on a very shaky foundation.
Only if they don't know the difference (Luke 6:39). On the contrary, we are receiving an unshakable kingdom (Hebrews 12:28) and that kingdom is ruled by God's law (Matthew 6:10). Jesus warned about that "whoever breaks the commandments and teaches others to do the same will be considered least in the kingdom", so therefore given the gravity of the offences whereby stumblings occur, it is our responsibility to bring to light the errors in the ways of the churches so there is an opportunity for repentance (2 Timothy 3:16, James 5:19-20, Luke 17:1-2, Matthew 13:41).
 

JLB

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2 Timothy 3:5​

"holding to a form of [a]godliness although they have denied its power; avoid such people as these."

Interesting verse you chose.


I believe this refers to people who are not baptized with the Holy Spirit. What are your thoughts?




JLB
 
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