UNDERSTANDING THE BIBLE-THE HOLY SPIRIT/SCHOLARS

[Lilac]

It’s based on the theory that God elects some for salvation and they will never be lost, while He elects others for eternal damnation and they will never be saved.

Based on the teachings of Calvinism.

whut? are there believers who believe this?

Do you have proof of this being part of calvinistic teaching?

(in a way, when I think about it now, back in the Netherlands, there are certain regions, where, let's say, a lot of weird things happen within church communities but no one talks about it...)

 

[GodsGrace]

whut? are there believers who believe this?

Do you have proof of this being part of calvinistic teaching?

(in a way, when I think about it now, back in the Netherlands, there are certain regions, where, let's say, a lot of weird things happen within church communities but no one talks about it...)

Yes,,,there are believers who believe this and not only calvinists.

In Calvinism this would be the P of the acronym T.U.L.I.P.
It stands for PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS

It means that those that "God chose to be saved" can never become unsaved because God will keep them safe until the end.
The only problem is that in calvinism one can only know he is saved by the good works he does since he is not the one that chose
to be Christian but God forced His will upon him. So only in the end of the person's life will he know whether or not he held on till the end.

However, other Christians believe this too that are not calvinist.
In this case it's actually called ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED.
And yes, it means what JLB stated.
They believe that once they walk down an isle and "accept Jesus" they are saved forever because
they cannot "lose their salvation". NO MATTER HOW THEY LIVE.
We can all sin...but it's clear from scripture that we cannot live a life of sin and still be saved.
There are so many verses that prove this.

Calvinism is popular in the Netherlands because John Calvin was based in Geneva Switzerland and it spread North and throughout some places in Europe.

 

[Lilac]

If we don't agree with the creed, we cannot consider ourselves Christian.
It's kind of like a statement of faith for this site or for a church.

okay, I see the point about many could not read, but sure they can listen to preachings and memorize biblical truths spoken?
A creed is not scripture inspired by the Holy Spirit.
It's a document written by a human being, making a statement of one's belief. Anyone can write a creed (btw Wiccans have a creed as well).
I don't think I can say, because I belief and confess this creed, it makes me a believer?
What are the signs of being a true Christian?
Aren't deeds in this way more important than the mere words I am able to express?
https://carm.org/about-salvation/what-are-the-signs-of-being-a-true-christian/

 

[Hopeful]

Of course it does....
If a person believes everything stated in the Nicene Creed that makes him a Christian.
There are other versions of the Creed, BTW.
The new versions are more complete.
What makes a person a Christian otherwise?

How many alleged Christians say they believe that particular creed but still don't follow God?
Obeying God makes a man a Christian.

It does mention that Jesus became incarnate.

But without mentioning the Word, that was with God from the beginning.

And the Creed is used by most denominations, some might have a slight difference but nothing of importance.
Aren't Baptists, Episcopalians and Methodists Christian?

I don't think "house" rules permit my honest answer.

 

[GodsGrace]

okay, I see the point about many could not read, but sure they can listen to preachings and memorize biblical truths spoken?
A creed is not scripture inspired by the Holy Spirit.
It's a document written by a human being, making a statement of one's belief. Anyone can write a creed (btw Wiccans have a creed as well).

The Early Church Fathers are not "just anyone"!
They're the same persons that chose what letters and gospel to put into the New Testament.
Do you believe in the Trinity?
That was also developed by the Early Church Fathers.
A creed is not just a document...it tells what one must believe in order to be called a Christian.

I don't think I can say, because I belief and confess this creed, it makes me a believer?
What are the signs of being a true Christian?
Aren't deeds in this way more important than the mere words I am able to express?
https://carm.org/about-salvation/what-are-the-signs-of-being-a-true-christian/

If you BELIEVE and CONFESS this creed, it does make you a Christian.
There are some that repeat it but do not believe it...these are those that are not considered Christian.

I looked at your link to Carm...but it's not necessary.
Jesus Himself tells us what we have to do to be His friends...
John 15:14
14“You are My friends if you do what I command you.

We are disciples of Christ if we do what He commands.

Also, the N.T. tells us:

James 1:22
But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not just hearers who deceive themselves.


If we're Christian then our lives have to show it.

 

[GodsGrace]

How many alleged Christians say they believe that particular creed but still don't follow God?
Obeying God makes a man a Christian.

I can't speak for others.
If someone says THEY BELIEVE something that is written,,,it might not actually mean they
follow what it says or even really believe it. If they're not following God, then they're not Christian.
However, to be a Christian you DO have to believe what it says.
That's all I meant.

But without mentioning the Word, that was with God from the beginning.

Doesn't this mention it:

Nicene Creed as adopted in 325​

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty,
Maker of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
he Son of God, begotten of the Father
the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father,
God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God,
begotten, not made, being of one substance (ὁμοούσιον) with the Father;
by whom all things were made both in heaven and on earth;
who for us men, and for our salvation,
came down and was incarnate and was made man;
He suffered, and the third day he rose again,
ascended into heaven; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
And in the Holy Ghost.

Hopeful, you might not know that there are more recent creeds.

I don't think "house" rules permit my honest answer.

This was the question:
Aren't Baptists, Episcopalians and Methodists Christian?

You honestly believe they aren't? (or, at least, not all of them).

 

[Hopeful]

I can't speak for others.
If someone says THEY BELIEVE something that is written,,,it might not actually mean they
follow what it says or even really believe it. If they're not following God, then they're not Christian.
However, to be a Christian you DO have to believe what it says.
That's all I meant.



Doesn't this mention it:

Nicene Creed as adopted in 325​

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty,
Maker of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
he Son of God, begotten of the Father
the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father,
God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God,
begotten, not made, being of one substance (ὁμοούσιον) with the Father;
by whom all things were made both in heaven and on earth;
who for us men, and for our salvation,
came down and was incarnate and was made man;
He suffered, and the third day he rose again,
ascended into heaven; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
And in the Holy Ghost.

Hopeful, you might not know that there are more recent creeds.





This was the question:
Aren't Baptists, Episcopalians and Methodists Christian?

You honestly believe they aren't? (or, at least, not all of them).

THE determining factor of whether or not a person is a Christian is whether or not they obey God.
Ask any member of those sects if they commit sin.
The ones who answer NO are the Christians.

 

[GodsGrace]

THE determining factor of whether or not a person is a Christian is whether or not they obey God.
Ask any member of those sects if they commit sin.
The ones who answer NO are the Christians.

Agree with the first paragraph.
Not with the second because even Christians sin.

I know you don't agree.

 

[Hopeful]

Agree with the first paragraph.
Not with the second because even Christians sin.

I know you don't agree.

If they still commit sin, then Jesus was wrong in John 8:32-34.
And Paul was delusional in 1 Cor 15:34.
And Peter was crazy to write 1 Peter 4:1.
And John didn't know what he was talking about in 1 John 3:9-10, 5:18.
I believe what they said and wrote.

 

[GodsGrace]

If they still commit sin, then Jesus was wrong in John 8:32-34.
And Paul was delusional in 1 Cor 15:34.
And Peter was crazy to write 1 Peter 4:1.
And John didn't know what he was talking about in 1 John 3:9-10, 5:18.
I believe what they said and wrote.

I guess then that Jesus was wrong in
John 20:23
23“If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

What sins would the Apostles have to forgive is born again persons stopped sinning?

You have created here a biblical conflict.
There can be no conflict in the N.T. or it becomes invalid because we would not know the truth that Jesus spoke of
in your verses.

So there must be some other explanation.

If you would study the history of baptism AND confession, you would glean much information.

 

[Hopeful]

I guess then that Jesus was wrong in
John 20:23
23“If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

What sins would the Apostles have to forgive is born again persons stopped sinning?

Jesus was speaking to OT men who were still walking in the flesh instead of in the Spirit.
Our method now, for the remission of past sins, is water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. (Acts 2:38, 22:16)

You have created here a biblical conflict.
There can be no conflict in the N.T. or it becomes invalid because we would not know the truth that Jesus spoke of
in your verses.
So there must be some other explanation.
If you would study the history of baptism AND confession, you would glean much information.

I hope my answer to the first question also answers the second.

 

[humble soul]

We are not educated enough to understand the whole Bible. To understand all the nuances in the Bible we need high level intellectuals to commentate.
On our own we can only understand the basics from the gospel. Love one another and so on.
To comprehend Paul's theological masterpiece , his letter to Romans, we need help. Help from the experts.
Paul himself was an intellectual it seems. Though he did know how to talk to the common man. The average sinner.
I rely on good commentaries. Even then I struggle to fully understand verses.
We should never think the Holy Spirit can replace expert advice. Better to use both.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus was speaking to OT men who were still walking in the flesh instead of in the Spirit.
Our method now, for the remission of past sins, is water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. (Acts 2:38, 22:16)

I hope my answer to the first question also answers the second.

Water baptism removed past sins...right.
But the Early Church Fathers realized that man would still sin ....
They were rather surprised because they believed that baptism and the receiving of the Holy Spirit would end all sinning.

So, what do do?
Some were waiting to be on their death bed to be baptized so that all their sins could be forgiven.
It was decided that confession would continue...the confession Jesus spoke of in John 20.
Protestantism changed this to direct confession to God since it is HE that forgives sins anyway and not man.

So you see Hopeful,,,I admire your intention.
But it is not scriptural, practical, or historical.

But I don't say this to discourage you....
Continue as you are.

Just for those reading along...I'd hate to discourage them because I know that sinning will continue as long as man is man in this world.

 

[Hopeful]

Water baptism removed past sins...right.
But the Early Church Fathers realized that man would still sin ....

You are wrong.
The pastors and teachers of the Lord never caved in to a potential church full of sinners wavering back-and-forth between good and bad.
It was the false church that lapped up accommodations for sin.

They were rather surprised because they believed that baptism and the receiving of the Holy Spirit would end all sinning.

So, what do do?
Some were waiting to be on their death bed to be baptized so that all their sins could be forgiven.
It was decided that confession would continue...the confession Jesus spoke of in John 20.
Protestantism changed this to direct confession to God since it is HE that forgives sins anyway and not man.

So you see Hopeful,,,I admire your intention.
But it is not scriptural, practical, or historical.

But I don't say this to discourage you....
Continue as you are.
Just for those reading along...I'd hate to discourage them because I know that sinning will continue as long as man is man in this world.

You seem misinformed of the power of God and the gift of permanent repentance from sin...not to mention the effects of rebirth from God's seed.
Can apple trees bear onions?
No !
Why then do some suppose that God's seed can bear liars, thieves, and adulterers?
Fact is, it can't.