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Was Israel enslaved in Egypt due to their sin and does Passover represent forgiveness of sin?

chessman

chessman

Member
My question(s) come from a point N.T. Wright makes in his new book (The Day the Revolution Began) which was discussed recently on the Unbelievable podcast (linked below).

Tom Wright says that Israel was not enslaved because of their sin nor does Passover in the NT or the OT represent forgiveness of sin (~48 minute mark). I disagree. Surprise, surprise J

I somewhat see his overall point about the atonement, but I’m not sure that he is using a very good rationale for it. Even he is somewhat questioning this idea.

Yes, Passover is a Feast, a celebration and the Day of Atonement (for sin) is a fasting day. He’s basically trying to determine which has primacy in the grand plan of God’s redemption of His people. But, the celebration of Passover is most certainly a celebration FOR the forgiveness of sin, IMO.

Concerning the Passover, In Exodus 7 God tells Moses:

Ex 7:4b-5 (LEB) I will put my hand into Egypt and bring out my divisions, my people, the Israelites (Literally “sons/children of Israel”) from the land of Egypt with great punishments. 5 And the Egyptians will know that I am Yahweh when I stretch out my hand over Egypt and bring the Israelites (Literally “sons/children of Israel”) out from their midst.”​

Specifically though, Tom Wright says: “I am not aware of any pre-Christian interpretation of Passover which sees it having anything to do with dealing with sin until the 2nd Temple period ..” (~49:48). Umm, I beg to differ:

Exodus 12:21 (LEB) And Moses called all the elders of Israel, and he said to them, “Select and take or yourselves sheep for your clans and slaughter the Passover sacrifice.

Exodus 12:27 (LEB) you will say, ‘It is a Passover sacrifice for Yahweh, who passed over the houses of the Israelites in Egypt when he struck Egypt; and he delivered our houses.’” And the people knelt down and they worshiped.

Numbers 9:13 (LEB) But the man who is clean and not on a journey, and he fails to observe the Passover, that person will be cut off from the people because he did not present the offering of Yahweh on its appointed time. That man will bear his guilt.

Deuteronomy 16:5 (LEB) You are not allowed to offer the Passover sacrifice in one of your towns that Yahweh your God is giving to you,

Deuteronomy 16:6 (LEB) but only at the place that Yahweh your God will choose, to let his name dwell there; you shall offer the Passover sacrifice in the evening at sunset, at the designated time of your going out from Egypt.​

Clearly, on his statement made at the 49:48 point, he’s wrong. Passover was a sacrifice for sin. Sure, it's a celebration for God's passing over their sin. But it most certainly deals with their sin.

So my only question is, are there passages that speak specifically of why Israel’s sons were enslaved in Egypt in the first place? Punishment for sin or so that God could rescue them? Or both?

The hatred and jealousy Joseph’s brothers had and exhibited toward their brother Joseph (meaning God will add)???

Genesis 37:28 (LEB) Then Midianite traders passed by. And they [the brothers] drew Joseph up and brought him up from the pit, and they sold Joseph to the Ishmaelites for twenty pieces of silver. And they brought Joseph to Egypt.​

But Wright may be right in that the Bible doesn't actually say that Israel was enslaved in Egypt due to their sin.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/unbelievable/id267142101?mt=2#episodeGuid=http://cdnapi.kaltura.com/p/618072/sp/61807200/playManifest/entryId/1_yftgm5ja/flavorId/1_1mjz774w/protocol/http/format/url/a.mp3?clientTag=feed:1_jlj47tkv
 
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I'd say the lambs blood sacrifice and painting of the door frame of the Israelite's homes in Egypt with the hyssop brush, hyssop being used as a purifier in biblical times, so that God would pass over those homes and not take their first born, could be seen as the sacrifice for sins. Being Jesus was later called the Passover lamb. God's "first born son".

John 10:9. Jesus said, "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.". (John 10:9). This statement is a part of Jesus' teaching after He had healed the man born blind. It had been at Jerusalem that Jesus had miraculously healed the man.
 
chessman said:
So my only question is, are there passages that speak specifically of why Israel’s sons were enslaved in Egypt in the first place? Punishment for sin or so that God could rescue them? Or both?
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I cannot think of any specific verses that address this, but I have an observation from the overarching meta-plot:

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob spoke with, trusted in and wrestled (literally) with God.
By the story of Joseph, we have dreams that communicate "what you meant for evil, God meant for good." Followed by the children of Israel being given the choice farm land to dwell in.
By the time of the birth of Moses, it almost seems that it is not only the house of Pharaoh that appears to have forgotten the name of the Lord, Moses knows of his heritage and values it enough to kill an Egyptian to protect an Israelite, but must learn of God from his father in law and must ask God who the people should call him.
When the people were left alone with their freedom, a golden calf seemed like a good idea to them.

This reminds me of the later verse "When all that generation had been gathered to their fathers, another generation arose after them who did not know the LORD nor the work which He had done for Israel." (Judges 2:10)
The slavery of Israel may have been the first turn of the wheel that we shall see repeated over and over in the time of the Judges and Kings.
Frankly, one we (the visible church) still continue to fall into.

Just an observation.
 
chessman said:
So my only question is, are there passages that speak specifically of why Israel’s sons were enslaved in Egypt in the first place? Punishment for sin or so that God could rescue them? Or both?
Click to expand...

Abraham was advised by God in Gen. on the matters of slaveship of his progeny, here:

Genesis 15:13
13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

And also of the end game:

14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

The hatred and jealousy Joseph’s brothers had and exhibited toward their brother Joseph (meaning God will add)???

Genesis 37:28 (LEB) Then Midianite traders passed by. And they [the brothers] drew Joseph up and brought him up from the pit, and they sold Joseph to the Ishmaelites for twenty pieces of silver. And they brought Joseph to Egypt.​

But Wright may be right in that the Bible doesn't actually say that Israel was enslaved in Egypt due to their sin.
Click to expand...

Sacrifices for sin were already established long before Israel's heading into Egypt. Abel, Noah and Abraham come to mind. Gen. 4:4, Gen. 8:20, Gen. 22:13 come readily to mind in addition to many other forms of altar building and sacrifices prior to Israel's captivity in Egypt.

I'm not a Wright fan. He's too invested in history only, his pedigree. Paul dissected these matters via allegory, 1 Cor. 9:9-10, Gal. 4. So did the writer of Hebrews, Heb. 6:7-8, Heb. 11:19 for examples.

So did all the prophets. Hos. 12:10.

To understand the matters requires allegorical/parable connections. For example, Ezekiel gives us the first real Spiritual look at Pharaoh, and it's NOT about the flesh man, Pharaoh:

Ezekiel 29:3
Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.

If we observe N.T. scriptures such as Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2 we'll see all mankind serving Pharaoh in slaveship, to which Israel is a FLESHLY/NATURAL showing of this spiritual reality.
 
In think the Israelites were just atoned for that night by putting blood on the door posts and lintel so as to get passed over. The purpose of the passover is stated explicitly somewhere. So they and future generations could remember that God passed over them so as to spare their firstborn while killing the firstborn of the Egyptians Which you probably know where it is.
Here it is, Exodus 12:23-27.
 
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chessman said:
I get the relationship of Gal 4 and Hebrews. But 1 Cor 9:9-10??? 1 Cor 7, maybe?
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The citings were directed to observe matters of Israel's slaveship/sin through the sights of allegory, the methodology Paul employed.

We can observe Pharaoh of the flesh (several of them) from the scriptures. The accounts of Pharaoh(s) as flesh men don't have much of anything of value from the spiritual perspectives.

The real spiritual Pharaoh is unseen and still in operation with members of his kingdom: Ezek. 29:3, Mark 4:15, Matt. 12:26, Romans 9:17-24, Heb. 11:24, 1 John 3:10.

Gods Intentions were to take one nation from within another. Again, a spiritual matter:

Deuteronomy 4:34
Or hath God assayed to go and take him a nation from the midst of another nation, by temptations, by signs, and by wonders, and by war, and by a mighty hand, and by a stretched out arm, and by great terrors, according to all that the Lord your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes?
 
Mustard Socks said:
I'd say the lambs blood sacrifice and painting of the door frame of the Israelite's homes in Egypt with the hyssop brush, hyssop being used as a purifier in biblical times, so that God would pass over those homes and not take their first born, could be seen as the sacrifice for sins. Being Jesus was later called the Passover lamb. God's "first born son".

John 10:9. Jesus said, "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.". (John 10:9). This statement is a part of Jesus' teaching after He had healed the man born blind. It had been at Jerusalem that Jesus had miraculously healed the man.
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(Ref:Genesis 15)
The reason Israel had to wait in Egypt for 400 or so years was that God was waiting for the "sins" of the people living in the land He promised Abraham to reach full measure. Then God judged them. But I believe such judgment was only according to the flesh not the soul as that people lived apart from law and long before the light of the gospel message was preached. (With light come accountability)
 
i dont thnk Israel was enslaved by Egypt. i think Egypt at one time was living in a different belief system that was monotheistic and they fell to dark ways and the Lord removed the Jews from Egypt. the bible mentions the Lord is going to bring Egypt back to the correct way.
 
jaybird said:
i dont thnk Israel was enslaved by Egypt. i think Egypt at one time was living in a different belief system that was monotheistic and they fell to dark ways and the Lord removed the Jews from Egypt. the bible mentions the Lord is going to bring Egypt back to the correct way.
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Have you read Genesis 15:12-16 lately?
 
chessman said:
So my only question is, are there passages that speak specifically of why Israel’s sons were enslaved in Egypt in the first place? Punishment for sin or so that God could rescue them? Or both?
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Gen 13
12 Abram dwelled in the land of Canaan, and Lot dwelled in the cities of the plain, and pitched his tent toward Sodom.

13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.

14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:

15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.

17 Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.

18 Then Abram removed his tent, and came and dwelt in the plain of Mamre, which is in Hebron, and built there an altar unto the LORD.
Gen 15
12 And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.

13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

May be Israel was not being punished but God used them in punishing Egypt.
 
Randy said:
Have you read Genesis 15:12-16 lately?
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that post i made didnt make any sense, sorry bout that, not sure what i was thinking. what i was trying to say or meant to say was i think there was a connection between Israel and Egypt before Egypt was known as Egypt. way back in pre dynastic Egypt.
 
The bible says you reap what you sow....
Example..
Jacob stole esaus. birthright.....
He suffered 20 years away from his family with a difficult boss Laban as a consequence.....

11 sons of Jacob sold Joseph into slavey....
They were put in slavery 400 yeqrs as a consequence of their sin.....
 
he will have the source and the argument. its a matter of lack of trusting God. remember our actions can affect our offspring. that is the argument of why they went to Egypt. its an interesting take. Abraham didn't trust God with his life nor sarai and lied to the pharaoh about her and did so to save his skin. he could have said sarai is my wife and relied on God to protect him.
 
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