What Did Jesus Know About The Law(s) That Most Don't?

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This thread may be fun. I hope some will enjoy the scriptural disclosures from Jesus and the Apostles.

We know quite a bit about The Law(s), in the scriptures, meaning any of them, really. Breaking them down and dividing them into categories has it's place, but the essence of any law is this:

Command and penalty for disobedience. So, where we see "any" command, we should also perceive that there is also a penalty for disobedience. That is the essence of any particular law. We see the command/penalty in the first law in the Garden, given to Adam. Do not eat, or else, death, basically. We also see the same principle deployed in many other places, reaping what we sow being given in many places as other examples.

In this particular thread, I'd like to show some aspects of the law that have been relatively unattended to, by most, but it should become blatantly obvious as we go along the scriptural trails, that being this fact:

The Law(s) were not given to only man. And my opener for this principle will be from Paul's scripture, showing us that the law is for the lawless and for sinners:

1 Timothy 1:9
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

I bolded and underscored the emphasis I'd like to observe in this thread. That being, that the law is made for the lawless disobedient sinners. This is a fairly simple principle.

And the first witness from the scriptures, that I would trot out for view in this matter is the first man, Adam. Why? Because the first law, in brief, "do not eat or else death" was laid upon Adam before we have any signs whatsoever that Adam was a lawless disobedient sinner. If anyone can prove otherwise, lol. There is ZERO external proof that Adam, prior to the delivery of the first law was a lawless disobedient sinner. If anything, we have directly contradictory evidence that he was not, because scriptures tell us that Adam was in fact God's son in Luke 3:38.

Why then, did God lay the law upon Adam, IF the law was made for lawless disobedient sinners? What did God know and see in that that we are not seeing?

So, I'd like examine a part of the law to lawless disobedient sinners that goes largely unattended by most handlers of the law. And for that, I'll trot out the second witnesses.

Jesus, in John 8:44, tells us quite clearly about Satan, the devil:

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Might we see in this that the devil, Satan, is a lawless disobedient sinner? I might certainly expect so!

Do we know that the devil is a sinner? Yes, of course we do, not only from Jesus, above, but also here, from John the Apostle:

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

These are the opening observations of this thread. In the next, I'll examine how this relates to the first law, with Adam, and Satan, the devil's role in the delivery of that first law.

That law was not to Adam, but the lawless disobedient sinner that few, if any, even perceive.

 

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In theological protology, the scriptural study of beginnings, we have a plethora of basic examinations, to see how things transpired from the starting point, or the beginning, proto meaning first, original, primitive, primary, basic, etc etc.

Without the Divine Disclosures from The Lips of Jesus, God's Word, we might not even have the theological "tools" necessary to "reverse engineer" our scriptural examinations from HIS Perspective, which Perspective is Spot On, Perfect. So I might observe that without The Word of God from Jesus, from whom came TRUTH and was, Himself, TRUTH, we probably are not going to have a full picture of "protology." In order to understand the first law, we go back then, with Jesus' Word in hand, in order to re-examine the matters of Adam, and the first law.

Jesus tells us in the Gospels about what happens where The Word is sown. When we see any Word of God, this principle applies, because it is a fact, from Jesus. And in the disclosures of Jesus, we see what happens where The Word is sown, by His Own Lips. And we can see then, the very first Words of God to Adam (with Eve yet within), were God's Words of blessings.

Genesis 1:22
And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

And, in the light that Adam was in fact, God's son, we would expect that God's blessing upon him/them were entirely God's Intentions.

So then, what might have happened to Adam, between the time of that blessing above, and the delivery of the law to what on the surface appears to be only Adam? No, Adam was not a lawless disobedient sinner, but was God's son.

Why then the law? To understand this, we need Jesus' explanation, here:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

I might even perceive that Adam could have been quite perplexed by the first law. Didn't you just bless me God? Why then, this sentence of possible death? I'm sure this question immediately sprang to mind. I would be shocked at receiving a possible death sentence, wouldn't you be? Adam had no inkling of what death might even be, I'm sure. There was no prior person or thing that happened to to even relate to death. So, perplexed, I'm certain, Adam was. And part of the reason that Adam was perhaps perplexed, was he had no clue that what Jesus said in Mark 4:15 had in fact happened to himself. So the potential for disobedience was placed upon Adam, or so we might falsely perceive, in that first law, as well as a possible death sentence.

What I would examine more closely however, is Jesus' Disclosure about what happens where the Word is sown. Satan immediately enters, to take away the Word. And because this DID happen with Adam, that is WHY the first law came, NOT to Adam, but to the disobedient lawless sinner that was already in the Garden, the tempter, Satan, in the flesh of Adam.

How do I know Adam was perplexed about the law? Or even of God's prior blessings? Because it was not just Adam, in the flesh of Adam. Satan in fact "entered" the heart of Adam, just as Jesus shows, happens where The Word is sown.

The law is for the lawless disobedient sinner, and Satan is all of that. Therein, is the reality of the FIRST LAW.

 

[Eugene]

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Dear Brother smaller, you say that Adam was not a sinner, but was he righteous until blood was shed for him?
Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
To my understanding there has been only One Righteous man and that was Jesus. Could we then say that the law was for the remainder of all men?

You quoted 1 Tim 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers.
Yet it is written in Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

Cause and effect is not the ultimate goal of man, and the tree of knowledge is merely the law which made Adam and Eve know that fact; it killed as the ministration of death for they then knew how far short they fell in the light of eternity compared with the only One that could bestow His own righteousness upon them. At that point they became dead to the law and we are judged by His righteousness.

 

[JLB]

What I would examine more closely however, is Jesus' Disclosure about what happens where the Word is sown. Satan immediately enters, to take away the Word. And because this DID happen with Adam, that is WHY the first law came, NOT to Adam, but to the disobedient lawless sinner that was already in the Garden, the tempter, Satan, in the flesh of Adam.

Who caused Lucifer to fall ?

 

[smaller]

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Dear Brother smaller, you say that Adam was not a sinner, but was he righteous until blood was shed for him?

We are advised that Adam was God's son. I see no cause to slur Adam, if we perceive what happened to Adam in relationship to the entrance of the tempter, into the flesh/mind/heart of Adam. I might even say that we, in our blaming and accusing Adam, are in fact somewhat under the influences of the blamer and accuser of the "brethren" ourselves. There is, in short, another party, even though unseen, to observe in these matters, IF we see as Jesus Sees and Discloses, in Mark 4:15 and from similar disclosures, which I'll get into in later posts, all open evidence of the working of the tempter, already upon, even within both Adam and Eve, prior to eating the infamous fruit. They were in fact already under the deception of the tempter, internally, both of them.

Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
To my understanding there has been only One Righteous man and that was Jesus. Could we then say that the law was for the remainder of all men?

If we understand that the law was made for the lawless disobedient sinner, and that, being Satan, we might see a lot of things that transpired subsequently, quite differently. The first place to "extract" ourselves from Satan's internal deception is to STOP blaming and accusing Adam and Eve, and look instead to the lawless one, the deceiver, the tempter in their flesh. And to see how that operator works not only in Adam and Eve, which I will examine by Word Sights, but also in ourselves, when we fall into the clutches of same, ourselves, in blaming only them, and disregarding the deceiver IN them.

You quoted 1 Tim 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers.
Yet it is written in Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

I don't doubt that one little bit. I do not however believe that the source is entirely man as it pertains to "all" being lawless disobedient sinners. And the entrance of the deceiver, at the prompting of Gods Words, in resistance to same by many adverse workings, is in fact the source of all mankinds intimate relationship to sin.

Cause and effect is not the ultimate goal of man, and the tree of knowledge is merely the law which made Adam and Eve know that fact;

I will examine, in another post, that neither Adam or Eve approached the tree or ate of it, of or in their own accord, but already in the clutches of the deceiver, within, just as Jesus Disclosed in Mark 4:15, and will bring in other seed parable and matters of lusts that were already upon, within, Eve, in her actions prior to eating, and the mangling of the law, that Eve was already deceived by.

it killed as the ministration of death for they then knew how far short they fell in the light of eternity compared with the only One that could bestow His own righteousness upon them. At that point they became dead to the law and we are judged by His righteousness.

We are going to look at the "source" of their falling, and that source was NOT them.

 

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Who caused Lucifer to fall ?

Satan was a liar and a murderer and a resistor to Gods Word, from the beginning. Satan was in fact made exactly to resist, by God, Himself. There is not one single scripture that says Satan was at one time Holy and then made some bad decisions. That is a christian fairy tale, a fairy tale that is made also, by the influence of Satan. Because it has ZERO scriptural support.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Well that's a new thought I hasn't heard of. The law was made for Satan. But on that note. It can be said that the law was made to condemn Satan, as well as to condemn us because we don't follow it. But I think it is also part of what saves us, and has the chance to put us back in the right paths. After all it would not make sense from the Old Testament to say that blessed is the person who studies the law and keeps it near their heart. In the laws are also the aspects that Jesus came to fulfill from handing out the Holy Spirit, to being the sacrifice to defeat sin. Within the law numerous times it gives instructions on how to come back to God.

Going on to the verses in the New Testament, God loved the world that He sent His Son to save the world while in it's sin. If the law is made for the lawless, it might be there to save us as well as condemn us. To lead us an example to follow instead of the failed paths we run by our sins and our best understandings.

 

[smaller]

Well that's a new thought I hasn't heard of. The law was made for Satan. But on that note. It can be said that the law was made to condemn Satan,

Without question this is the intention of the law. I'll try to get into that later as well. Yes, Satan himself has already been judged by the law as a condemned killer, a liar, a lawless sinner, PROVEN openly by the law and his actions IN mankind, and is awaiting his final sentence in permanent fire, beyond any doubt whatsoever.

as well as to condemn us because we don't follow it.

IF we understand the principles of the law, and how it operates, we WILL find that because of the operations of the tempter, internally, adverse to the law, that is is virtually impossible to be lawful. Utterly, totally impossible. It is upon this exact ground that we leap headlong into the Arms of our Savior, just as Paul notes here:

Galatians 3:24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

What we have going on, right here in this thread, is part of the lessons of the schoolmaster. And if we can break out from dragging this thread into the mud, you will see some marvelous things about the power of the law, and how it works to our ADVANTAGE in Christ.

But I think it is also part of what saves us, and has the chance to put us back in the right paths. After all it would not make sense from the Old Testament to say that blessed is the person who studies the law and keeps it near their heart. In the laws are also the aspects that Jesus came to fulfill from handing out the Holy Spirit, to being the sacrifice to defeat sin. Within the law numerous times it gives instructions on how to come back to God.

Make no mistake, I love the Law. I love Every Word of God.

Going on to the verses in the New Testament, God loved the world that He sent His Son to save the world while in it's sin. If the law is made for the lawless, it might be there to save us as well as condemn us. To lead us an example to follow instead of the failed paths we run by our sins and our best understandings.

There is much to observe in this arena. The condemnation of the law is in fact OUR ALLY.

 

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If we understand that Satan, the deceiver, the tempter, does enter the heart as Jesus Disclosed in Mark 4:15, and realize that one of the workings of the "thief" is to Steal Word from the hearts of man, we might see this "basic theft" had already transpired, first, more than likely, in Adam. The first law was given to Adam, with Eve not yet separated out from within him. So ADAM, the "natural man" had the LAW delivered to him. We do not find this command being repeated by God to Eve, so it is more than likely that the command itself, that first law, was "shared" with Eve, from Adam. Let's look at that first command or law, again:

Genesis 2:
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Now, here, is how Eve recalls that same law:

Genesis 3:
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Sorry Eve, not even CLOSE.

We can see by simple comparison, that the Words of God in that law, were not recounted exactly, and that words that God did NOT say, were added to the law.

What might we observe from this matter?

First, I'd like to take a closer look at Adam, himself, as a natural man, as it was probably Adam, the natural man, who "shared" the law with Eve. Paul tells us exactly how Adam was made i.e. the 'conditions' that Adam was planted in, here:

1 Cor. 15:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made

What else do we know about the 'natural man's understanding' of the Law? Again, from Paul, and us now seeing the conditions of Adam, i.e. what conditions he was planted into as a natural man:

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

We might observe in Eve's recounting, even mangling of the reciting of Gods Law, not complete, adding to that law, words that were not there in the first command, that the natural man, Adam, she received that law from didn't get it right either. "Neither can he know them" shows upon them both in this matter of the law, and in them both, well before they 'et.'

So, what other 'signs' does Eve show BEFORE she disobeyed by actions. Let's observe her sights, her LUSTS, which lusts were in fact prompted by Satan's words to her, I might even say, within her:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

This is the exact path of sin. It first mangles Gods Words, via the THEFT of Satan within, clearly seen in the mangling of Gods Laws. Because of the entry of the deceiver, neither of them understood, as the natural man/woman can not understand or receive, they are again, deceived by the blinding power of the adversary, within. And then the finality of the workings of lust, more particularly identified, by John the Apostle, and ALL shown upon them, both Adam and Eve:

1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

John's discourse here is almost identical to what transpired. Jesus would say no differently to Adam and Eve, what he said here:

John 8:44
John 8:44
King James Version (KJV)

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

The flesh man, the carnal man, the natural man, every sinner even, does have a father of LUSTS IN the flesh, and that father is the DECEIVER, the TEMPTER, in their own flesh.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." ~ Jesus

Romans 8:7-11
7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[a] because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[b] his Spirit who lives in you.

The Holy Spirit gives you power to uphold Spiritual law. - - - - - Hence the Christ is Holy (Jesus), he passes on his holiness to believers.

 

[Obadiah]

Folks, just a reminder to everyone, this is one of the forums that has specific guidelines that affect all posts and must be followed in order for posts to stand and the thread to remain active. They can be found here, and they state:

"Christian Theology is by definition the study of God through His word, the Bible. Apologetics goes hand in hand with theology as it is the branch of Christian theology which attempts to give a rational defense of the Christian faith. That makes the Apologetics and Theology forum unique from many of our other forums in that this is a place specifically for these types of discussions.

With this in mind, the following guidelines should be followed.

• Original posts should reference specific scripture and what it is the member wants to say or ask about that scripture.
• Subsequent responses either opposing or adding additional information should include references to specific supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation of the member's understanding of how that scripture applies.
• Opinions are plenty and have little value so please do not state positions that have no basis in scripture.
• Do not use phrases such as, “You’re wrong.” This is insulting and inappropriate and there are nicer ways to disagree without being insulting.
• Once you have made a point, refrain from flooding the forum with numerous posts making the same point over and over with nothing new to support it.
• You may ask a member questions as to what they believe on certain topics relative to the subject of the thread, but please keep in mind the member is under no obligation to answer.
• Failing to answer someone’s question doesn’t necessarily amount to an admission of error or surrender but keep in mind that in any debate if you refuse to or can not answer a reasonable question, it may weaken your position."
  
  I especially recommend keeping the subject of one post to one subject so they don't get so long that a person needs to write an entire book in order to respond to them. (This is required by the ToS, by the way...)
  
  Obadiah

 

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Takeaways about Law(s) from this thread to this point.

The law is for lawless disobedient sinners. 1 Tim. 1:9
The devil is a sinner, and has been a sinner from the beginning. 1 John 3:8
The law invokes internal lusts to transpire. Romans 7:7-13
The devil lusts. John 8:44
Satan is moved to sin, within man, where the Word is sown. Mark 4:15 and the other seed parables

All have sinned. Romans 3:23 Romans 5:12
Sin is a present tense habitation within [the flesh] that is not the person. Romans 7:17-21 2 Cor. 12:7
The devil is involved with all sin. 1 John 3:8

Adam, Eve, and every person since them except for God in Christ in the flesh, has factual issues within them via the law (written or written in their conscience), with sin and the devil, the tempter.

It is on this ill foundation that all mankind is meant to come to understand salvation by Grace through faith in Jesus Christ, apart from their works, because all our works are in fact tainted (Isaiah 64:6) by these factual issues with sin, the law and the devil's resistance/temptations that transpires within all, believer or unbeliever. Romans 3:9

The above is the scriptural foundation or basis of God's Grace through Christ, Alone, and not of our works. And to know in His Living Way, His DIVINE ETERNAL MERCY, because that is what God Wants to convey to ALL mankind.

This is also the basis of the very legitimate fear of God, because we understand that there are in fact two workings that transpired and continue to transpire with God and His Living Word.

The Word is and was always meant to LIFT UP mankind, to save them, to separate and divide them all from this capture of Satan, to turn them from Satan's holding power, prompted by the law that empowers and reveals sin unto Christ's Grace through faith. Acts 26:18

The Living Word continues to actively resist, inflame and even empower sin through Satan, the devil, the tempter in all. Mark 4:15, 1 Cor. 15:56

Any believer who is honest about their own internal temptations and understands "who" they are from, within, will find greater understandings in these matters.

It is in this way that the Word of God is rightly divided to be for and behalf of man, and against the devil, simultaneously.

These are the Two Edges of Gods Word Sword that are active upon the earth, today, as we speak. One Edge is proven openly, daily, in every activity of sin that transpires in the world, that we see constantly, with our own eyes.