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Bible Study What happens at death?

OzSpen

OzSpen

C F Martin D28 acoustic guitar
Member
What is the biblical understanding of what happens at death for both believers and unbelievers?

Theologians call this the Intermediate State between death and the final judgement.

This is a starter:

Before Christ’s resurrection, both believers and unbelievers went to Sheol/Hades – two separate places in that location (see Isa 14:9-20; 44:23; Ezek 32:21; Lk 16:22-23). After the resurrection, believers go to be with Christ (Phil. 1:23) which is better than Hades. According to 2 Cor 5:6-9, believers are present with the Lord and are worshipping with the angelic hosts in heaven (Heb. 12:22-23).

Oz
 
Do we find evidence of eternal torment in hell in the OT? Don't be surprised if we don't learn it because of what is known as progressive revelation.

This means there are things taught in the OT that are vague but are made clearer in NT revelation.

Therefore, it should not surprise us that when the OT prophets stated many things about Sheol – the place to which people departed at death – they did not expound in depth on it. That was given to the NT to explain further.

Sadly, the KJV translates Sheol as “hell” (31 times); “grave” (31 times) and “pit” (3 times). Because of this kind of inconsistency, this has given opportunity to various groups (JWs, Armstrongism, SDAs, etc.) to teach, wrongly in my view, that Sheol means the grave.

However, the following examples of the use of Sheol use figurative language to explain the conditions there. These include:
  1. Sheol has “gates” to enter and “bars” to keep one in (e.g. Job 17:16; Isa. 38:10). Thus, by use of this figurative language, Sheol is described as a realm from which there is no way to escape.
  2. Sheol is described as a shadowy place, a place of darkness (Job 10:21-22; Ps 143:3).
  3. Sheol is regarded as being “down”, “beneath the earth”, in “the lower parts of the earth” (Job 11:8; Isa 44:23; 57:9; Ezek 26:20; Amos 9:2). These figures of speech are designed to tell us that Sheol has another existence – it is not part of this world that we live in. But there is another existence that has a different dimension. It is not sending the dead into non-existence or to be annihilated.
  4. It is a place for reunion with ancestors, tribe or people (e.g. Gen 15:15; 25:8; 35:29; 37:35; 49:33; Num 20:24, 28; 31:2; Deut 32:50; 34:5; 2 Sam 12:23). Sheol is the place where all human beings go at death. Jacob looked forward to his reuniting with Joseph in Sheol. These OT references confirm that death meant separation from the living, but reunion with the departed.
  5. There are indications that there could be different sections in Sheol with language such as “the lowest part” and “the highest part” (Deut 32:22).
  6. What are the conditions for a person who goes to Sheol? At death a person becomes a rephaim, i.e. a ghost, shade, disembodied spirit, according to the Hebrew lexicons and dictionaries of the OT (see Job 26:5; Ps 88:10; Prov 2:18; 9:18; 21:16; Isa 14:9; 26:14, 19). Instead of saying that human beings pass into non-existence at death, the OT states that a person becomes a disembodied spirit. Keil & Delitzsch in their OT commentary define rephaim as “those who are bodiless in the state after death” (Vol 4 on Job, p. 52).
  7. Those in Sheol converse with each other and can even make moral judgments on the lifestyle of those who arrive (Isa 14:9-20; 44:23; Ezek 32:21). So, they are conscious beings when in Sheol.
  8. Those in Sheol do not have knowledge of what is happening for those who are still alive on earth (Ps 6:5; Eccles 9:10, etc.)
  9. Some of the spirits in Sheol experience the following:
a. God’s anger (Deut 32:22). Here, Moses states of the wicked that “a fire is kindled by my anger and it burns to the depths of Sheol” (ESV).​
​
b. Distress and anguish (Ps 116:3);​
​
c. There is writhing with pain; they are trembling (Job 26:5). Here the Hebrew word, chool, means to twist and turn in pain like a woman giving birth to a child.​
​
From the OT revelation, we know that the righteous and the wicked went to Sheol at death (Gen. 37:5), but the OT believers did not have a clear understanding of what to expect in Sheol. That was left for the progressive revelation of the NT to reveal more for us. Because of this principle of progressive revelation, the OT believers did not have the information that was needed to approach death with peace and joy (see Heb. 2:14-15).​

I have not been able to find any mention of Sheol in the OT meaning non-existence or annihilation (from Torment in Old Testament hell? The meaning of Sheol in the Old Testament).

Oz
 
OzSpen said:
Do we find evidence of eternal torment in hell in the OT? Don't be surprised if we don't learn it because of what is known as progressive revelation.

This means there are things taught in the OT that are vague but are made clearer in NT revelation.

Therefore, it should not surprise us that when the OT prophets stated many things about Sheol – the place to which people departed at death – they did not expound in depth on it. That was given to the NT to explain further.

Sadly, the KJV translates Sheol as “hell” (31 times); “grave” (31 times) and “pit” (3 times). Because of this kind of inconsistency, this has given opportunity to various groups (JWs, Armstrongism, SDAs, etc.) to teach, wrongly in my view, that Sheol means the grave.

However, the following examples of the use of Sheol use figurative language to explain the conditions there. These include:
  1. Sheol has “gates” to enter and “bars” to keep one in (e.g. Job 17:16; Isa. 38:10). Thus, by use of this figurative language, Sheol is described as a realm from which there is no way to escape.
  2. Sheol is described as a shadowy place, a place of darkness (Job 10:21-22; Ps 143:3).
  3. Sheol is regarded as being “down”, “beneath the earth”, in “the lower parts of the earth” (Job 11:8; Isa 44:23; 57:9; Ezek 26:20; Amos 9:2). These figures of speech are designed to tell us that Sheol has another existence – it is not part of this world that we live in. But there is another existence that has a different dimension. It is not sending the dead into non-existence or to be annihilated.
  4. It is a place for reunion with ancestors, tribe or people (e.g. Gen 15:15; 25:8; 35:29; 37:35; 49:33; Num 20:24, 28; 31:2; Deut 32:50; 34:5; 2 Sam 12:23). Sheol is the place where all human beings go at death. Jacob looked forward to his reuniting with Joseph in Sheol. These OT references confirm that death meant separation from the living, but reunion with the departed.
  5. There are indications that there could be different sections in Sheol with language such as “the lowest part” and “the highest part” (Deut 32:22).
  6. What are the conditions for a person who goes to Sheol? At death a person becomes a rephaim, i.e. a ghost, shade, disembodied spirit, according to the Hebrew lexicons and dictionaries of the OT (see Job 26:5; Ps 88:10; Prov 2:18; 9:18; 21:16; Isa 14:9; 26:14, 19). Instead of saying that human beings pass into non-existence at death, the OT states that a person becomes a disembodied spirit. Keil & Delitzsch in their OT commentary define rephaim as “those who are bodiless in the state after death” (Vol 4 on Job, p. 52).
  7. Those in Sheol converse with each other and can even make moral judgments on the lifestyle of those who arrive (Isa 14:9-20; 44:23; Ezek 32:21). So, they are conscious beings when in Sheol.
  8. Those in Sheol do not have knowledge of what is happening for those who are still alive on earth (Ps 6:5; Eccles 9:10, etc.)
  9. Some of the spirits in Sheol experience the following:
a. God’s anger (Deut 32:22). Here, Moses states of the wicked that “a fire is kindled by my anger and it burns to the depths of Sheol” (ESV).​
​
b. Distress and anguish (Ps 116:3);​
​
c. There is writhing with pain; they are trembling (Job 26:5). Here the Hebrew word, chool, means to twist and turn in pain like a woman giving birth to a child.​
​
From the OT revelation, we know that the righteous and the wicked went to Sheol at death (Gen. 37:5), but the OT believers did not have a clear understanding of what to expect in Sheol. That was left for the progressive revelation of the NT to reveal more for us. Because of this principle of progressive revelation, the OT believers did not have the information that was needed to approach death with peace and joy (see Heb. 2:14-15).​

I have not been able to find any mention of Sheol in the OT meaning non-existence or annihilation (from Torment in Old Testament hell? The meaning of Sheol in the Old Testament).

Oz
Click to expand...
Hi Oz, I will nibble on the bait, lol.

You have also Hades and Gehenna.
Gehenna, which is valley of Hinnom, where the children past through the fire.
In our Lord's day the idolatry had ceased, but the fires were still continually burning there for the destruction of the refuse of Jerusalem, thus geena was used for the fires of destruction associated with the judgment of God.

Regardless, what you call it, death and hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire, this is the second death, the death of the soul. I believe.
Rev.20:14
This is at the great white throne judgment.

Good day to you....
 
dianegcook said:
Hi Oz, I will nibble on the bait, lol.

You have also Hades and Gehenna.
Gehenna, which is valley of Hinnom, where the children past through the fire.
In our Lord's day the idolatry had ceased, but the fires were still continually burning there for the destruction of the refuse of Jerusalem, thus geena was used for the fires of destruction associated with the judgment of God.

Regardless, what you call it, death and hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire, this is the second death, the death of the soul. I believe.
Rev.20:14
This is at the great white throne judgment.

Good day to you....
Click to expand...

Diane,

Are unbelievers cast into Gehenna at the Great White Throne judgment?

What is the nature of Gehenna? Is it a place of conscious or unconscious punishment? Or, is it a place of annihilation?

Oz
 
OzSpen said:
Diane,

Are unbelievers cast into Gehenna at the Great White Throne judgment?

What is the nature of Gehenna? Is it a place of conscious or unconscious punishment? Or, is it a place of annihilation?
Click to expand...
Unbelievers will be cast into the Lake of fire at the Great White Throne Judgment.
The nature of hell?
It is a place of consciousness, like that of the rich man and Lazarus. One side of the gulf or other.
The hell of it is knowing they messed up , and waiting for the Great White Throne Judgment where they will be cast into the Lake of Fire.
Those whom never heard the truth will still have a chance, they have not put on immortality before the Millennium. Then tested after Satan be loosed for a short time after the Millennium.

In Rev.20:5,6
Blessed are those who took part in the first resurrection, they have put on immortality, on such the second death hath no power.

The rest of the dead , spiritually, lived not again until the 1000 years were finished.
They have to put on immortality.

I believe the Lake of Fire is the annihilation.

Rev.21:4
There shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, no pain, for the former things are passed away.
 
OzSpen said:
What is the biblical understanding of what happens at death for both believers and unbelievers?

Theologians call this the Intermediate State between death and the final judgement.

This is a starter:

Before Christ’s resurrection, both believers and unbelievers went to Sheol/Hades – two separate places in that location (see Isa 14:9-20; 44:23; Ezek 32:21; Lk 16:22-23). After the resurrection, believers go to be with Christ (Phil. 1:23) which is better than Hades. According to 2 Cor 5:6-9, believers are present with the Lord and are worshipping with the angelic hosts in heaven (Heb. 12:22-23).

Oz
Click to expand...
I watched a show where a doctor had a near death experience and found himself sitting on a giant flying butterfly next to a woman. She seemed to know him and said to him not to worry "We can't sin here." She told him her name. When he "awoke" or came back into his body, as he put it, he talked to his mom about the woman and told her the name. He said his mother wept and said the woman was his sister still-born and named before burial.
 
dianegcook said:
I believe the Lake of Fire is the annihilation.
Click to expand...

Diane,

Using the language of 'I believe' is not helpful for me to understand Scripture. From where do you gain evidence that Gehenna (the Lake of Fire) means annihilation?

I'm open to consider that interpretation, but I need your exegesis and exposition of the biblical text to prove that in the Lake of Fire unbelievers are zapped out of existence - annihilated.

Can you please help me reach the same conclusion as your, 'I believe'?

Oz
 
daninthelionsden said:
I watched a show where a doctor had a near death experience and found himself sitting on a giant flying butterfly next to a woman. She seemed to know him and said to him not to worry "We can't sin here." She told him her name. When he "awoke" or came back into his body, as he put it, he talked to his mom about the woman and told her the name. He said his mother wept and said the woman was his sister still-born and named before burial.
Click to expand...

Dan,

I hope you don't base your view of life after death from NDE (near-death experiences).

Oz
 
daninthelionsden said:
I watched a show where a doctor had a near death experience and found himself sitting on a giant flying butterfly next to a woman. She seemed to know him and said to him not to worry "We can't sin here." She told him her name. When he "awoke" or came back into his body, as he put it, he talked to his mom about the woman and told her the name. He said his mother wept and said the woman was his sister still-born and named before burial.
Click to expand...
i will ask my wife about her oldest son, he has visited my wife and also monica. ..in a dream monica had was a boy telling her that the shirt she was wearing as A GIRL about 7 irc, was something he was given. monica was not told about that until she told her mother about the dream. the boy was a miscarriage
 
OzSpen said:
Diane,

Using the language of 'I believe' is not helpful for me to understand Scripture. From where do you gain evidence that Gehenna (the Lake of Fire) means annihilation?

I'm open to consider that interpretation, but I need your exegesis and exposition of the biblical text to prove that in the Lake of Fire unbelievers are zapped out of existence - annihilated.

Can you please help me reach the same conclusion as your, 'I believe'?

Oz
Click to expand...
I thought I explained it pretty good, lol.
What do you think the second death is?
 
The HELL you say!!

I just wanted to give my 2 cents worth.

The Bible says hell was created for THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS.
It was not made for man originally.

The Lake of Fire does not cause lack of consciousness, does not result in Total ANNIHILATION - for we see the Beast and False Prophet ARE tossed in there at beginning of 1000 years - at end of 1000, Satan is pitched in where the Beast and False Prophet

ARE

Indicating consciousness on their part throughout 1000 years.

As to whether Bible speaks of Eternal Conscious Torment, I see that as inconclusive.

I see that there is a possibility of NON-PERPETUITY concerning Hay-yull, and our "forever and ever" might be rendered "unto ages of ages", as Greek literally has it. But that is used by Universalists, hard to swallow, but not unconclevable.
 
dianegcook said:
I thought I explained it pretty good, lol.
What do you think the second death is?
Click to expand...

Diane,

You didn't answer my question: From where do you gain evidence that Gehenna (the Lake of Fire) means annihilation?

You stated the second death is annihilation. I would like the biblical evidence.

Oz
 
Anto9us2 said:
The HELL you say!!

I just wanted to give my 2 cents worth.

The Bible says hell was created for THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS.
It was not made for man originally.

The Lake of Fire does not cause lack of consciousness, does not result in Total ANNIHILATION - for we see the Beast and False Prophet ARE tossed in there at beginning of 1000 years - at end of 1000, Satan is pitched in where the Beast and False Prophet

ARE

Indicating consciousness on their part throughout 1000 years.

As to whether Bible speaks of Eternal Conscious Torment, I see that as inconclusive.

I see that there is a possibility of NON-PERPETUITY concerning Hay-yull, and our "forever and ever" might be rendered "unto ages of ages", as Greek literally has it. But that is used by Universalists, hard to swallow, but not unconclevable.
Click to expand...

Anto,

unconclevable :?

Oz
 
Sorry about the typo.

And now, it is time for my analogy of Los Angeles professional sports teams concerning what happens when we die.

LAKERS are those who believe in Eternal Conscious Torment, unbelievers go in Lake of Fire, conscious, and their worm dieth not.

CLIPPERS are the Anihilationists, the Silver Cord of Ecclesiastes is clipped, and unbelievers just "die when they die".

DODGERS dodge the issue in various ways. Like me, I say it's too close to call - I'm a Dodger. Other Dodgers might be Universalists, Reincarnationists, or other things I can't swallow.
 
Guffaw!!
Yeah, Oz, eternal electroconvulsive treatment, conscious...

LOL

ECT is Eternal Conscious Torment
 
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