What is better?

[Frank Goad]

halloween or christmas?For me it's christmas because it was jesus birthday and all the gifts.

 

[Gary]

halloween or christmas?For me it's christmas because it was jesus birthday and all the gifts.

For me they are both just another day. The poison and the razor blades in the candy kinda put the kibosh on Halloween for me and all the political correctness took the "Ho,Ho,Ho" out of Christmas.

And just out of curiosity, what significance does the birthday of Jesus hold for you? You're an atheist.

.

 

[hallowbonnie]

Definately been in love with halloween since I was 3! Christmas has always been one of my least favorite holidays so I dont really celebrate it but if someone invites me over for christmas dinner Ill go or says merry christmas Im gonna say it back Im not gonna be a jerk about it.

 

[Lady Terra]

The funny thing is Christmas started a pagan(Yuletide) holiday and Halloween started as a Christian Holiday. The Christians wanted to remember their family and friends who passed on to the other side. Now it is all reversed. check out history. This could be fun....

 

[th1b.taylor]

In some circles I'm known as pappaw and in others as grandpa. Oct. 31 has been so perverted that i have nothing to do with it and it is up to my children to teach theirs what I have taught them. There is no Santa Claus at my home but there is prayer, fellowship and a great shrimp and fish supper in celebration of our Saviour but then we celebrate that and pray every day so I would need to vote for Christmas.

 

[TOG]

The funny thing is Christmas started a pagan(Yuletide) holiday and Halloween started as a Christian Holiday. The Christians wanted to remember their family and friends who passed on to the other side. Now it is all reversed. check out history. This could be fun....

That's only half right. Christmas is an adaptation of various winter solstice festivals, with most of the traditions coming from one of two Roman festivals - Saturnalia (festival to honor Saturn) or Deis Natalis Sol Invictus (Birthday of the Invincible Sun). Halloween didn't start as a Christian holiday, but is an adaptation of Samhain, which was a Celtic harvest festival, during which people made sacrifices to the spirits of the dead. Both are equally Pagan in my eyes.

The TOG​

 

[tim-from-pa]

halloween or christmas?For me it's christmas because it was jesus birthday and all the gifts.

Do you know what pagan vs Christian holiday debate you just released? Oh the horrors!

Well, 'tis the season(s) again soon for this to happen, and we go thru this each and every year. I personally don't agree or acknowledge either, but the rest of the family celebrates the latter at least. I sort get dragged along like a kid when the parents go places. But in all fairness, many Christians are at least starting to ditch the associated commercialism in these worldly holidays, and trying to get back to the supposed "reason for the season".

 

[ReginaForbes]

Thanksgiving for the win!

 

[Blake]

What the devil has intended for evil, God has used for good. Sure, Christmas may have pagan origins, but Christianity baptized these practices. I don't believe for one moment that one inadvertently worships the devil or practices paganism because they hang and light a tree, these things have been made subject to, and brought to glorify Christ. Now, whether or not someone actually uses that day to glorify Him in a special way is their own personal walk and conviction. But it's unreasonable, IMO, to think that a Christian falls into sin because they employ "pagan practices" on Christmas. We decorate the house, hang a tree and watch all the ol' movies (I particularly enjoy the 1970 stop action film "Santa Claus Is Comin' to Town) just for fun, and then I make special time in my prayer closet that evening, supplicating that my love of Christ be "born this day anew" within my heart.

The political correctness doesn't bother me -- well, I lied, it does -- but I don't allow much room for it. The TV is playing carols or old movies or I'm too busy visiting with family and friends to hardly notice.

 

[TOG]

Sure, Christmas may have pagan origins, but Christianity baptized these practices.

This is an idea that I will never be able to accept. The thing that was "baptized" (or "sanctified" or whatever other word people care to use), was not an innocent day off work when people gave children presents and told them stories about reindeer with red noses, but an idolatrous sun -worship festival. The Bible clearly states, both in the Old and New Testaments, that idolatry is a sin. Can the church "baptize" something that God has declared to be a sin? Not only is idolatry called a sin, but it is called an abomination. If the church can "baptize" one abomination, why not others? Why don't we just "baptize" homosexuality? That would solve many problems for many people. While we're at it, why don't we just baptize all sin, thereby doing away with any reason for God to judge us and saving the entire world?

The fact is that the church has no authority to "baptize" any sin, and never had any authority to "baptize" the Saturnalia or the Birthday of the Invincible Sun, or any Pagan fertility celebrations or Samhain or anything else.

The TOG​

 

[jasonc]

This is an idea that I will never be able to accept. The thing that was "baptized" (or "sanctified" or whatever other word people care to use), was not an innocent day off work when people gave children presents and told them stories about reindeer with red noses, but an idolatrous sun -worship festival. The Bible clearly states, both in the Old and New Testaments, that idolatry is a sin. Can the church "baptize" something that God has declared to be a sin? Not only is idolatry called a sin, but it is called an abomination. If the church can "baptize" one abomination, why not others? Why don't we just "baptize" homosexuality? That would solve many problems for many people. While we're at it, why don't we just baptize all sin, thereby doing away with any reason for God to judge us and saving the entire world?

The fact is that the church has no authority to "baptize" any sin, and never had any authority to "baptize" the Saturnalia or the Birthday of the Invincible Sun, or any Pagan fertility celebrations or Samhain or anything else.

The TOG​

if I did that then what day of the week should we be using in English? month? those are pagan.

janus the god of the new year. January is his month.

 

[for_his_glory]

I see a can of worms being opened!!! It is better for me to have the light of Christ found in me that I shine for Him everyday of the year and not be found conformed to this world.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

 

[TOG]

if I did that then what day of the week should we be using in English? month? those are pagan.

janus the god of the new year. January is his month.

I don't see using names that have been given to things as comparable to taking part in something Pagan. As in any Pagan society, there were many things named after the Roman gods in the days of Jesus and the apostles, and there are examples of them using those names. For example, Acts 17 mentions a place called Areopagus. The name is derived from the Greek words "Ares" and "pagos", meaning "Ares Rock". Ares was the god of war, and is probably better known today by his Roman name, Mars. That was the name given to that hill, and that's the name Christians used. If they used something else, nobody would have known what they were talking about. The same applies when we are talking about the months or days of the week. Chances are that if you told somebody you wanted to meet him next Fifth Day, he wouldn't know you were referring to Thursday.

But there are also examples of people doing what they could to change the use of Pagan names, and even succeeding in some cases. Jón Ögmundarson (1052-1121), bishop of Iceland, made new names for the days of the week. Many of them became generally accepted and are still in use today. The days that changed are these:

Tuesday - Changed from Týsdagur (Day of Týr) to Þriðjudagur (Third Day)
Wednesday - Changed from Óðinsdagur (Day of Odin) to Miðvikudagur (Midweek Day)
Thursday - Changed from Þórsdagur (Day of Thor) to Fimmtudagur (Fifth Day)
Friday - Changed from Frjádagur (Day of Frigg) to Föstudagur (Fasting Day)

There are also examples from the Bible. Esther 3:7 starts out "In the first month, which is the month of Nisan...". 1st Kings 8:2 speaks of "...the feast in the month Ethanim, which is the seventh month."
Originally, the months didn't have names, but numbers. After the Babylonian exile, the people started using the Babylonian names of the month, but some seem to have tried to keep using the original number system, but mentioned the Babylonian names so people would know what they were talking about.

There is one more example I can think of. I know Hollywood isn't a good source of information, but I once saw a John Wayne movie, where he was wounded and an Amish family took him in. One day, everyone was dressed up in their best clothes, and he asked why. He was told "Today is First Day". I don't know how much truth is behind that, but it seemed that the Amish had their own words for at least one day of the week, which they used among themselves. What's to keep Christians from doing something similar today?

The TOG​

 

[Willie T]

My friend, Jeff, again. LOVE this guy......

This is the time of year when Christians begin talking a lot about "pagan origins", and that in the context of Halloween. They become experts and masters at dredging up the dark history of said holiday, and then publish their findings, fears, and rants far and wide.

But here's the thing...

I just simply can't take these things seriously.

Why?

Because those who seem so adept at tracing the pagan origins of a thing themselves hold to many theological views that have clearly pagan origins. While Halloween may have pagan origins, it's celebration is a relatively harmless thing that does not have any affect on a persons life. However, the Zoroastrian inspired understand of good and evil that is standard fare in 99.9% of evangelical churches does. The Babylonian, Greek and Persian influenced views of hell that the majority hold to today also most certainly do. The Gnostic inspired view of original sin and total depravity do as well.

If we're talking pagan origins, let's examine our theologies that actually affect our lives and treatment of humanity. Holidays that, sure, may have pagan origins, but result in little more than the possibility of needing dental work should be the absolute *LEAST* of our worries.

 

[TOG]

My friend, Jeff, again. LOVE this guy......

This is the time of year when Christians begin talking a lot about "pagan origins", and that in the context of Halloween. They become experts and masters at dredging up the dark history of said holiday, and then publish their findings, fears, and rants far and wide.

But here's the thing...

I just simply can't take these things seriously.

Why?

Because those who seem so adept at tracing the pagan origins of a thing themselves hold to many theological views that have clearly pagan origins. While Halloween may have pagan origins, it's celebration is a relatively harmless thing that does not have any affect on a persons life. However, the Zoroastrian inspired understand of good and evil that is standard fare in 99.9% of evangelical churches does. The Babylonian, Greek and Persian influenced views of hell that the majority hold to today also most certainly do. The Gnostic inspired view of original sin and total depravity do as well.

If we're talking pagan origins, let's examine our theologies that actually affect our lives and treatment of humanity. Holidays that, sure, may have pagan origins, but result in little more than the possibility of needing dental work should be the absolute *LEAST* of our worries.

If I understand you correctly, what this basically boils down to is "A is worse than B, so we should concentrate on A and not worry about B at all". In a different context, we could say that sexually abusing young children is much worse than car theft, so let's concentrate on stopping the child molesters and make car theft legal. Of course, nobody here would ever agree to that line of reasoning, when put that way, but that's exactly what you said. Pagan origins of certain doctrines are much worse than anything to do with Christmas or Halloween, so let's ignore those ("make them legal") and do something bout the doctrines. Why not just say that, although there is a difference in degree, all of these Pagan influences are wrong. If we are aware that some doctrine, holiday or custom originated in Pagan belief or worship practices, then we should avoid those things. That's what I try to do.

The TOG​

 

[Willie T]

If I understand you correctly, what this basically boils down to is "A is worse than B, so we should concentrate on A and not worry about B at all". In a different context, we could say that sexually abusing young children is much worse than car theft, so let's concentrate on stopping the child molesters and make car theft legal. Of course, nobody here would ever agree to that line of reasoning, when put that way, but that's exactly what you said. Pagan origins of certain doctrines are much worse than anything to do with Christmas or Halloween, so let's ignore those ("make them legal") and do something bout the doctrines. Why not just say that, although there is a difference in degree, all of these Pagan influences are wrong. If we are aware that some doctrine, holiday or custom originated in Pagan belief or worship practices, then we should avoid those things. That's what I try to do.

The TOG​

I think the clear principle of Peter's Sheet vision.... and also, the Sabbath being made for man, NOT man made for the Sabbath, is in order here. Remember all those "rules" of men that Jesus ignored as pure nonsense while He, instead, focused upon simply doing God's will.... whether it was on the "wrong" day, or for the "wrong" race or religion, or even if it violated "Holy" ordinances. ("Holy", in this case, being men's ideas of what we were supposed to be concerned about.)

Much of this sounds like Don Quixote tilting at windmills.

 

[jasonc]

I don't see using names that have been given to things as comparable to taking part in something Pagan. As in any Pagan society, there were many things named after the Roman gods in the days of Jesus and the apostles, and there are examples of them using those names. For example, Acts 17 mentions a place called Areopagus. The name is derived from the Greek words "Ares" and "pagos", meaning "Ares Rock". Ares was the god of war, and is probably better known today by his Roman name, Mars. That was the name given to that hill, and that's the name Christians used. If they used something else, nobody would have known what they were talking about. The same applies when we are talking about the months or days of the week. Chances are that if you told somebody you wanted to meet him next Fifth Day, he wouldn't know you were referring to Thursday.

But there are also examples of people doing what they could to change the use of Pagan names, and even succeeding in some cases. Jón Ögmundarson (1052-1121), bishop of Iceland, made new names for the days of the week. Many of them became generally accepted and are still in use today. The days that changed are these:

Tuesday - Changed from Týsdagur (Day of Týr) to Þriðjudagur (Third Day)
Wednesday - Changed from Óðinsdagur (Day of Odin) to Miðvikudagur (Midweek Day)
Thursday - Changed from Þórsdagur (Day of Thor) to Fimmtudagur (Fifth Day)
Friday - Changed from Frjádagur (Day of Frigg) to Föstudagur (Fasting Day)

There are also examples from the Bible. Esther 3:7 starts out "In the first month, which is the month of Nisan...". 1st Kings 8:2 speaks of "...the feast in the month Ethanim, which is the seventh month."
Originally, the months didn't have names, but numbers. After the Babylonian exile, the people started using the Babylonian names of the month, but some seem to have tried to keep using the original number system, but mentioned the Babylonian names so people would know what they were talking about.

There is one more example I can think of. I know Hollywood isn't a good source of information, but I once saw a John Wayne movie, where he was wounded and an Amish family took him in. One day, everyone was dressed up in their best clothes, and he asked why. He was told "Today is First Day". I don't know how much truth is behind that, but it seemed that the Amish had their own words for at least one day of the week, which they used among themselves. What's to keep Christians from doing something similar today?

The TOG​

so we should have a "work " calendar? and a religious calendar? either way were are still going to use those words. the jews do the exact same. they don't call Monday or what month were are in at work in Hebrew. they do work with gentiles.

note the date.

www.chabad.org.
chassidics are large group. within 50 miles of me are three temples.

 

[TOG]

I think the clear principle of Peter's Sheet vision.... and also, the Sabbath being made for man, NOT man made for the Sabbath, is in order here. Remember all those "rules" of men that Jesus ignored as pure nonsense while He, instead, focused upon simply doing God's will.... whether it was on the "wrong" day, or for the "wrong" race or religion, or even if it violated "Holy" ordinances. ("Holy", in this case, being men's ideas of what we were supposed to be concerned about.)

Much of this sounds like Don Quixote tilting at windmills.

Let me see if I got this straight.

Food is made for man, and not man for food, but you still eat.
Drink is made for man, and not man for drink, but you still drink (not necessarily alcohol, but any drink).
Clothes are made for man, and not man for clothes, but you still wear clothes.
The Sabbath is made for man, and not man for the Sabbath, and therefore you don't keep the Sabbath.

You said

But here's the thing...

I just simply can't take these things seriously.

Why?

Because those who seem so adept at tracing the pagan origins of a thing themselves hold to many theological views that have clearly pagan origins.

I'll listen to the "Sabbath was made for man" argument, when those using it stop eating, drinking and wearing clothes.

As for "all those "rules" of men that Jesus ignored", he never ignored a single commandment in the Torah, but only the rules that the Pharisees had added to God's laws. Jesus never did or said anything to justify breaking any of God's commandments, nor to justify taking part in Pagan rituals.

The TOG​

 

[TOG]

so we should have a "work " calendar? and a religious calendar? either way were are still going to use those words. the jews do the exact same. they don't call Monday or what month were are in at work in Hebrew. they do work with gentiles.

note the date.

www.chabad.org.
chassidics are large group. within 50 miles of me are three temples.

I don't really see what names of days or months really have to do with this discussion. We may not like using Pagan names for these things, and we can discuss ways around that, but saying that because we have to use words like "Tuesday" or "January" to be understood, then celebrating Pagan fesivals isn't a prblem, is like saying that because we run red lights every now and then, we shouldn't make such a big deal out of rape.

The TOG​

 

[jasonc]

I don't really see what names of days or months really have to do with this discussion. We may not like using Pagan names for these things, and we can discuss ways around that, but saying that because we have to use words like "Tuesday" or "January" to be understood, then celebrating Pagan fesivals isn't a prblem, is like saying that because we run red lights every now and then, we shouldn't make such a big deal out of rape.

The TOG​

again its a sin if the person worships them. when I have a calendar of janus month , am I not worshiping him? NO. the same could be said with those holidays.

luther celebrated Christmas. he is the father of Protestantism. does god then use idolaters to do his will then that didn't repent? if so then we need to switch bibles and become like the rcc.

but since we are on torah, where did it change that we cant execute those that have for that sin? think about god changed his laws?

the grace of the cross allows us not to do shabat or to do that. you are also picking what part of the torah to follow.