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What is the rule of faith for Christians?

Quantrill

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Are we here just to argue?

I asked you why you think Jesus said to call the elders.....
Could you read James 5 and post what it means to you?

I'll comment on Peter tomorrow when at my computer.

Sorry. Perhaps I come across that way. Many of my discussions are heated and when going from one to the other it is difficult to turn off the demeanor.

(James 5:14-15) "Is any sick among you? Let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have comitted sins, they shall be forgiven him."

I believe this is addressing any local body of believers. Any local church. And that church will have leaders and elders in that church. If one of that body is sick and he seeks healing, then he needs to call the leaders of that church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of Jesus Christ. And the prayer of faith, from the one seeking healing and from the elders, will heal him. And if his sickness was the result of his sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Quantrill
 

Bible

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(in answer to "Do the apostles have the ministry of reconciliation or only Christ?... answer..."We all have that ministry.")

Sure..."But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" (1 Peter 3:15)
And..."Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness." (Rom 12:6-8)
And..."Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." (Col 3:16)
We (the apostles) have the ministry of reconciliation 2 cor 5:18
 

Hopeful

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Worship no

But God always establishes order by obedience to hierarchical authority

In the church
In the angelic kingdom
In government
In the family
If you have ever read the OT, you will see how much trouble "hierarchal authority" can get you into.
I will worship God, and thank Him for providing pastors and deacons to guide and feed His sheep.
 

Bible

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What is the matter?
Has your doctrine kept you from telling others about the "ministry of reconciliation" while you idolize apostles?
You mean the authority of the apostles?
No idols
I’m not an apostle or evangelist
 

Hopeful

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You mean the authority of the apostles?
No idols
I’m not an apostle or evangelist
OK, You idolize the authority of the apostles.
Yet here you are trying to evangelize the readers !
How do you explain that?
Don't you feel you are stepping on the "real" apostle's toes?
I certainly hope not, as it is the duty of every man in Christ to "fish".
 

Bible

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If you have ever read the OT, you will see how much trouble "hierarchal authority" can get you into.
I will worship God, and thank Him for providing pastors and deacons to guide and feed His sheep.
Without apostles, priests, a temple, the ark of the covenant and a sacrifice it is impossible to worship God!

Apostles are not impeccable

even so the successors of Moses were hypocrits Christ commanded their authority be obeyed

Same for Peter and the apostles and their successors
 

Bible

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"low" priests".???
You are up to three levels of priesthood now.
Wanna try for four?
Sounds like "OT" regalia is the next topic up for discussion.
There are only two orders of priests in the new covenant
The royal priesthood of the faithful
The ministerial order of Melchizedek
Which has both high and low priests
 

Bible

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I just said we are priests and of course Jesus is the High Priest and Head of the Church.

The offering of Christ was a one time offering.

(Heb. 10:10) "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

(Heb. 10:12) "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;"

(Heb. 10:14) "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

Concerning (Mal. 1:11) there is nothing there to indicate a continual offering of Christ. The offering of incense did not speak to a sin offering. And this verse is addressing the time of the Millennium when Gentiles over all the earth will acknowledge God and Christ. See (Is. 60:6-7) that speaks to the same.

Just like all the Old Testament offerings and sacrifices did nothing to remove sin, so the offerings and sacrifices during the Millennium do nothing to remove sin. The Old Testament sacrifices look forward to Christ. The Millennial sacrifices look back to Christ's one true Sacrifice that removed sin once and for all.

Just like the Churches Lord's Supper today. It looks back. It doesn't recrucify Jesus.

Quantrill
There are only two orders of priests in the new covenant
The royal priesthood of the faithful
The ministerial order of Melchizedek
Which has both high and low priests

Never said recrucify jesus
 

Hopeful

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Without apostles, priests, a temple, the ark of the covenant and a sacrifice it is impossible to worship God!
Not so, as I worship God in my truck nearly every time I get a green light.
Apostles are not impeccable
Then they are not of an impeccable God.
even so the successors of Moses were hypocrits Christ commanded their authority be obeyed
That is simply inane.
God doesn't command His children to obey devils.
Same for Peter and the apostles and their successors
I'm not willing, or able, to follow devils.
I have the Spirit of God in me to let me know who doesn't really love God.

It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)
How does the catholic "church" compare to that scripture of God?
 

Quantrill

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There are only two orders of priests in the new covenant
The royal priesthood of the faithful
The ministerial order of Melchizedek
Which has both high and low priests

Never said recrucify jesus

Well, high and low are your terms. Not the Bibles. Not God's. Not Christ's. Chist is High Priest. We are priests after the same order. Christ is priest after the order of Melchizedek. So are the believers.

Good, then we agee. Christ's offering was done 'once' and for all. Before that offering believers looked forward to it. After that offering believers look back to it. It is never repeated, only remembered.

Quantrill
 

wondering

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Sorry. Perhaps I come across that way. Many of my discussions are heated and when going from one to the other it is difficult to turn off the demeanor.

(James 5:14-15) "Is any sick among you? Let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have comitted sins, they shall be forgiven him."

I believe this is addressing any local body of believers. Any local church. And that church will have leaders and elders in that church. If one of that body is sick and he seeks healing, then he needs to call the leaders of that church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of Jesus Christ. And the prayer of faith, from the one seeking healing and from the elders, will heal him. And if his sickness was the result of his sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Quantrill
It's OK Quantrill --- understood.

Can we dig deeper?

James 5:15 says that if we have committed any sins, they will be forgiven.
This is stated re the elder annointing the sick, who will be prayed over by the elder.
It states that such a prayer said in faith will HEAL the sick person and make him well.
And, that sins will be forgiven if the person has committed any.

Doesn't this conflict with what we are taught and experience?
Annointing of the sick does not heal the sick person. I have experienced this in two different person.
Also, why would this forgive sins? Do we not ask God for forgiveness and receive it?

This almost sounds like John 20:23.

Any ideas?
 

wondering

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(My point is that the church is the covenant, we are united in Christ thru baptism in the new covenant church)

My point is that any Covenant is between God and Man. Not between God and a church.

No there is only one church founded by Christ on Peter matt 16:18 all others are sects found by the tradition of men
The reason there are other churches which you call sects founded by men is because the CC went astray as time went by.
It started out well but by the 1500's it was declaring who was saved and who was lost, charging to have sins forgiven and loved ones released from purgatory,
refused to forgive some persons and not based on there being no repentance but on other political reasons, having many tortured and/or put to death during the
inquisition - which lasted for hundreds of years.

Purgatory and confession are extremely defective doctrine and here's why:


Purgatory makes a person believe that they will end up in heaven even if they sin a lot, as long as they don't commit a mortal sin.
This is not what the gospels of Jesus teach us.
This could lead many to become lost.
We have only this life to decide where we want to spend eternity and live accordingly.
Some priests do not believe purgatory even exists.
Some priests believe it is an operation because of the love God has for us to give us a second chance.
This is nowhere to be found in scripture and is a harmful doctrine.



If a confession is not done properly, the person may leave confession believing they are forgiven, when, in reality, they are not.
A person may feel that he could sin and then be forgiven.
This leads a person to think less about sinning because they can always go to confession later.
 

wondering

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Well, high and low are your terms. Not the Bibles. Not God's. Not Christ's. Chist is High Priest. We are priests after the same order. Christ is priest after the order of Melchizedek. So are the believers.

Good, then we agee. Christ's offering was done 'once' and for all. Before that offering believers looked forward to it. After that offering believers look back to it. It is never repeated, only remembered.

Quantrill
Your second paragraph above, highlighted by me, is what the CC teaches.
But it's more than just remembered...it's a remembrance...or it's like standing at the foot of the cross.
 

wondering

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I beg to differ.
The original church was instituted on the day of Pentecost when like minded believers received the gift of the Holy Ghost.
In Eph 3:21 it is called "the church by Christ Jesus".

How can it be the original church when the gates of hell have so very much prevailed against it?
It's the original church because it can be traced back to the Apostles.
I'm not willing to debate this...it's history, plain and simple.
 

wondering

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Then why have the gates of hell so over come it, in spite of Jesus' promise?
Men.
Men are sinful and sin --- much to your disapproval.
Some men in the church love God
Some men in the church do not.

Some only seek honor, glory and power.
These men have ruined the church---going back at lease 1,000 years.

This does not change history.
And it will explain why the CC is always a holy church...as all churches are.
even though many in it are not.

It's still the biggest denomination in the world (Christian)
and it has lasted two millennea.
This does not make all its doctrine correct, but I think it answers your question.
 
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