What's the difference between having a good rationel, versus rationalizing bad decisions.

[Not_Now.Soon]

This is more of a philosophical question then anything else, so I'm posting this in the Lounge. But I'm sure everyone has seen what I'm talking about. A person stays in an abusive relationship rationalizing that decision or rationalizing the actions of the person who hurts them, instead of trying to get help or leave. Or on the other hand a person making a hard decision using a good rationelle to guide them (sometimes very inspirational when you see it or hear about it).

What are the biggest differences between the two, or the most common red flags that your reasoning is flawed and only over rationalizating something that is wrong.

 

[for_his_glory]

Oh man, been there before. My last marriage was very abusive physically and mentally. I rationalized about calling the police, but in my mind when he got out of jail he would try to kill me again. I rationalized that the few times he went to church with me he would change.

The rationale was that I knew I had to get out, but had no way as I was a prisoner in my own home. No money, no car, no friends. What to do, what to do. What I did was cry out to God to help me get away and He provided the finances for me to buy a plane ticket and move back home to my mothers house.

Rationalization only makes one think of change, but rationale makes a way to change.

 

[Christ_empowered]

hi. i think one needs an outside person to help, here. not that anytime you (or...anyone...) makes a decision someone else needs to be involved, -but-...

two are better than one. Ecclesiastes 4:9-12



God is The Ultimate Judge, and of course...at a certain level, we're all responsible for our own decisions, to a point. I do believe+think that God 'speaks' thru other people in our lives, but its up to us to do The Berean thing and run what we hear by Scripture. That's also part of building a Christian Worldview.

interesting question. I hope more people respond.

 

[tdidymas]

This is more of a philosophical question then anything else, so I'm posting this in the Lounge. But I'm sure everyone has seen what I'm talking about. A person stays in an abusive relationship rationalizing that decision or rationalizing the actions of the person who hurts them, instead of trying to get help or leave. Or on the other hand a person making a hard decision using a good rationelle to guide them (sometimes very inspirational when you see it or hear about it).

What are the biggest differences between the two, or the most common red flags that your reasoning is flawed and only over rationalizating something that is wrong.

Such a person may not be trying to hear God or may be ignorant of wise actions to take in such a situation. But here is the answer to the essential question about what's the diff between rationale and rationalization:

What's the purpose of the reasoning? What is the person trying to accomplish? What is the motivation, or agenda, or attitude? IOW what is behind the rationale/rationalization?

I had a situation where someone was living with me (roommate), who was very bitter and hateful toward someone. I passed it off, rationalizing that it was "just a phase," "they'll cool off," "after all, they're a Christian," "God will speak to them," etc. etc. so I disregarded all the red flags.

But after that hated person was gone, then suddenly the hate was directed toward me. I then felt the intense spiritual defilement of it. The only way out was to separate, that is, cut him loose. I was very glad he moved out on his own. Then the only way I could overcome the aftermath was to pray for him.

After the fact, I now understand how my sinful condition prevented me from being a spiritual leader to him, to confront him with his bitter attitude at the time I was a disinterested party, in order to help him restore his relationship with God. Since I was spiritually weak, the devil had a heyday.

It seems to me that when a person is a victim in abuse, they have a responsibility to get out of that situation, both for their own sake, and for the sake of the abuser. If the victim stays willingly in the situation, they become an enabler of the abuse. All it does is feed the addiction, like giving money to the drug abuser who buys drugs with it. Abuse is an addiction, and the abuser needs to somehow come to that realization. It might take a separation or divorce, or police involvement.

If the abuser is willing to listen to reason, perhaps the victim can get him to admit he has a problem, to seek help. But that may be a long shot.

Many times a victim of abuse stays in the relationship because they get some kind of reward from the relationship. "How will I survive?" or "He needs me," or "I can change him if I just remain faithful," or "my love will change his attitude," or "the children need a father," or other such reasoning. The hard question for the victim is, why are you subjecting yourself to this abuse? What is the reward you're getting from it, and is it really worth the peril?
TD

 

[JohnDB]

It depends...
When you know that the shortest path to your goal is not a direct route (and you do have a roadmap) and that it's more about them than it is about you...you not only have license but actually a mandate to remain.

I've been involved with those everyone else has given up on... others wouldn't even begin to take a chance with...and made solid progress. Even to the point where they were wanting to become baptized.

There's a lot to it. But being able to understand and not be their victim is a major part of actually being a help instead of an enabler.

It's not a role for everyone. It's not easy. And success comes from some unlikely places and people.

Some clay can make thin and tall elegant works of art...some is only good for heavy, low walled function pieces. But understanding the capacity of the clay is a major in determining success.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

To for_his_glory and JohnDB.

Thank you both on your insight from opposite positions.

For_his_glory, first I owe an appology. I'm sorry if I brought a hard topic in light as an example of rationalization. Abusive relationships aren't something I have experience, but I know people who do have them, and I know the rationalization that goes on. I think everyone probabley knows, either first hand or from watching someone else this hard example of rationalization. I'm sorry if I made a bad example, but thank you for starting the discussion on what it means to have a good rationel instead of rationalizing. To make a way to change instead of just thinking about it.

JohnDB, the opposite side of the coin of not leaving a difficult cause but sticking though it with a good healthy rationel is awesome. If you have the character to be able to do that that's a great trait. But like you said it's not for everyone. Good luck and God bless.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

To Christ_empowered and tdidymas.

Good answers for a kind of test to confirm if something is a rationalization or a good rationel. Let the test be based on what others say, so that they can pull you out of you're reasoning is just rationalization. Check your modivation for the reasoning, to see if it's really good or not, and try to be focused on God so you can keep your motivations pure. Those are both good.

I like those both.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

One of the inspiring things I've read over the years are how some people apply bibilical teachings. There's just a few stories I've heard about how someone lives up to staying true in a difficult marriage that ends well because of it, or someone else actually living up to the rule of keeping the Sabbath even through being drafted and going into the military. And how God helped him while he held onto the rationel to follow God's rule while everyone else pressured him to not.

There are a few others I'm sure, I just don't remember. But I'm awestruck sometimes how some people take a principle in the Bible and live by it through the hardest of situations.

Meanwhile I worry about actually hearing God versus rationalizing what I think might be from Him. Or rationalizing what I hope is from Him. I hope my decisions might be guided by Him (and in that way hope my thoughts are being lead by God), while knowing others have fallen down darker paths rationalizing that their thoughts are God's, or that this is how God made them so their sins are ok, even justified.

Because I worry about rationalizing a little too much, I think I've made an obstacle making me hard of hearing to know what's from God (if I've ever had thoughts or feelings that God gave me, I think that I have on a few occasions, but just don't know), and maybe an issue with finding direction for where God would want me to go.

A second thought similar to distinguishing what's good rationel versus rationalizing bad decisions, is what's my own hopes, fears and biases rationalizing me away from God's path (but thinking hoping it is from Him), compared to what's actually from Him.

Sorry for the tangent. For me rationalization has it's easier to spot situations in our lives or other people's lives. But when it gets fuzzy is where to draw the line between staying steady on a solid foundation, and staying steady on a crimbling one that you think or hope is stable.

 

[JohnDB]

One of the inspiring things I've read over the years are how some people apply bibilical teachings. There's just a few stories I've heard about how someone lives up to staying true in a difficult marriage that ends well because of it, or someone else actually living up to the rule of keeping the Sabbath even through being drafted and going into the military. And how God helped him while he held onto the rationel to follow God's rule while everyone else pressured him to not.

There are a few others I'm sure, I just don't remember. But I'm awestruck sometimes how some people take a principle in the Bible and live by it through the hardest of situations.

Meanwhile I worry about actually hearing God versus rationalizing what I think might be from Him. Or rationalizing what I hope is from Him. I hope my decisions might be guided by Him (and in that way hope my thoughts are being lead by God), while knowing others have fallen down darker paths rationalizing that their thoughts are God's, or that this is how God made them so their sins are ok, even justified.

Because I worry about rationalizing a little too much, I think I've made an obstacle making me hard of hearing to know what's from God (if I've ever had thoughts or feelings that God gave me), and maybe an issue with finding direction for where God would want me to go.

A second thought similar to distinguishing what's good rationel versus rationalizing bad decisions, is what's my own hopes, fears and biases rationalizing me away from God's path (but thinking hoping it is from Him), compared to what's actually from Him.

Sorry for the tangent. For me rationalization has it's easier to spot situations in our lives or other people's lives. But when it gets fuzzy is where to draw the line between staying steady on a solid foundation, and staying steady on a crimbling one that you think or hope is stable.

I understand exactly what you are talking about.
And you are right to be concerned. Several huge blunders can be found from people taking a misguided approach to "doing what God told" them to do.
Like the guy in the 1950's who believed that the gift of tongues was given to him to speak Arabic. So he went to Egypt to witness. He barely made it back home alive to tell the tale of his "gift of tongues" was jibberish.
The children's brigade that led many children to their deaths.

Even though Paul had a miraculous experience most people skip the part where Paul went into isolation for three years to study and prepare for his new role...and Paul was already a scholar. "A Pharisee of Pharisees".

There is nothing so common as a guy with his Bible telling others that they need to follow him in order to find God...when the real thing they first need to find is their humility.

All the Biblical heroes of the Bible were reluctant at best...they all were wanting to hand the job off to someone else. (Moses to Peter)
Every time a villain was introduced it involved pride and ego. From Cain to Esau to Saul to Nebuchadnezzar...it was pretty bad.

If you know the good deed that needs to be done, you can easily accomplish the task without destroying yourself in the process and there is not another who is likely to do it...you have to.

But if you are trying to decide between the red or blue car to purchase...get over yourself. God gave us brains for a reason...to figure stuff out.

 

[for_his_glory]

To for_his_glory and JohnDB.

Thank you both on your insight from opposite positions.

For_his_glory, first I owe an appology. I'm sorry if I brought a hard topic in light as an example of rationalization. Abusive relationships aren't something I have experience, but I know people who do have them, and I know the rationalization that goes on. I think everyone probabley knows, either first hand or from watching someone else this hard example of rationalization. I'm sorry if I made a bad example, but thank you for starting the discussion on what it means to have a good rationel instead of rationalizing. To make a way to change instead of just thinking about it.

JohnDB, the opposite side of the coin of not leaving a difficult cause but sticking though it with a good healthy rationel is awesome. If you have the character to be able to do that that's a great trait. But like you said it's not for everyone. Good luck and God bless.

No need to apologize as this is a good topic an to see the different points of view. I can now take that of my past and use it as a witness as I testify of Christ and how He helped me through it all.

 

[for_his_glory]

It's sort of like, should I, shouldn't I. What is best for me or what is best for us. Some roads are a hard path to walk that eventually becomes easier, and some roads are a hard path you just have to keep walking down and never look back.

It's always good to weigh the pro's and con's and meditate on them as you seek God for the right answer.