Who Are The Elect? (Kinda Long But Important)

[wavy]

From centuries past up to the present there have been arguments between who exactly is the “true church†of our Father Yahweh. There are many beliefs concerning who the true followers of Messiah are: Catholics, various Protestant denominations, Gnostics, Messianic Jewish sects, Jehovah’s Witnesses...a whole multitude of different people who claim to know and hold the truth as Yahweh’s one and only people. This causes nothing but confusion to both the believer and the rest of the world.

Alright, so you are waiting to hear my standpoint, aren’t you? Well, the first thing I will say is that all of the above people along with hundreds of others are, strictly according to scripture, simply and flat out incorrect.

However, that is not the topic I wanted to directly put emphasis on (who the first followers of Messiah really were and what he really taught) although elements of it will be explained all throughout this comprehensive study. What I want to touch on is the doctrine of predestination and exactly what it means to be the “electâ€Â. This has been a controversial debate topic among believers, and this study will hopefully clear up some of the “weird†and unscriptural views that people hold concerning this topic.

(KJV, words of Yahweh always in black italics)

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Yahshua Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

These scriptures are the key scriptures in teaching the doctrine of predestination ("chosen" in Ephesians 1:4 being eklegomai or "elected/selected"). Some people believe it means certain individuals are chosen for salvation while others are not because Yahweh has mercy on whom he’ll have mercy and compassion likewise (Exodus 33:19; Romans 9:15). Some believe that Yahweh’s justification for predestination is because we all lived a past life and Yahweh has chosen us according to that life in a first, as opposed to this second and the coming earth age. Some believe all this means is that Yahweh, knowing the future and already had in his mind which individuals were going to be saved and obey him, set his salvation plan from the beginning (which is true, but this doesn’t explain who the elect are).

However, is Yahweh, God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob so unjust as to choose some individuals specifically for salvation while there is no chance for others?

I believe most of the different sides of predestination doctrine are all in error. How? I do not believe the “elect†are specifically chosen individuals. That’s not what scripture teaches. Because people have so little knowledge, being taught by many idiots (lol) who call themselves “pastorsâ€Â, about their inheritance and place in Yahweh’s plan, this simple, easy-to-prove truth is easily overlooked. The common doctrine of predestination as to who is elect and who isn’t is a selfish one. Individual Christians believers who believe Yahweh called them for their own sake and is concerned about their individual “joy†in gobbledygook situations like being able to pay your bills, living some form of “moral†life, getting jobs, making more money and going to church, along with many other crazy ideas!!! (Although Yahweh is concerned for you individually, he is no respecter of persons and does not teach from an individual standpoint in his Word, promoting brotherly love as a whole congregation, not limited to or rather specifically speaking of individuals). But I do not believe Yahweh works like that. Yahweh works on a much grander scale. He deals with people, not persons (except for a specific use). The elect are not specifically chosen individuals. To be blunt, the elect is a nation. What nation? How do we know which one it is and if this is true? Let’s take a look at scriptures where all truth should come from to guide us according to 2 Timothy 3:16:

We know that Yahweh’s covenant with Abraham was to make of him a great nation (this of course, is the blessed nation; Genesis 12:2). He promised to fill the earth with his seed, and that in his seed all families of the earth would be blessed (of course, in the hint understanding it is Messiah as revealed by Paul in Galatians 3:16). In the literal, it is the families of the earth being mixed into this great nation he was going to make of Abraham, and that he would be this “seed’s†God and they his people; Genesis 17:7-8). These covenant promises were renewed and given to Isaac and Jacob (Genesis 26:3-5; Genesis 28:13-15).

Let’s look at what Yahweh has to say about Israel after he brought them out of Egypt to Mt Sinai:

Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Here Yahweh, by his eternal Word declares Israel as his peculiar people. A kingdom of priests. Greater than all other nations of the earth. Special and sanctified to Yahweh (see also Deuteronomy 7:6, Deuteronomy 14:2) Let’s take a look at something Peter wrote:

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Yahshua Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of Yahweh the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Yahshua Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Here we have mentioned of the elect again. But let’s look at something else he wrote in this same letter to these same people that will help us in figuring out who these “elect†are:

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1 Peter 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

He is referring to the exact same group of people who were at Sinai, the holy and peculiar nation of priests (he also calles them "chosen" or eklektos, the same word for "elect"). What about verse 10 here? Doesn’t it say that these people were once not a people and that they, having formerly obtained no mercy have now obtained it? Doesn’t this prove that the “elect†and the people he is talking to and about here are not Israel? No. Because there is a special identity to this people, and to most of those called “nations/gentiles†who are called to salvation in the New Testament. That is another study, however. For now, to clear up verse 10 in 2 Peter here, I will direct you towards Hosea chapters 1 & 2. Pay special heed to the key terms “mercy†and “not a people†used here by Peter. Once you read Hosea, at least the first chapter, you will find out the identity of the people whom Peter is writing to here, who seem to be mere, pagan gentiles. Same with much of the letters of the NT including and especially Paul’s, like the ones to the Romans, the Corinthians and the Ephesians. Paul indeed was an apostle to the gentiles, but for a specific reason. One which can be touched on in some other post which I will probably make.

But does Yahweh directly refer to Israel as his elect? Yes, indeed he does. Let’s take a look at some concrete references:

Isaiah 44:1 Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen:

“Chosen†being the Hebrew word Strong’s #977, bachar, meaning to “selectâ€Â. This is the same definition of “elect†in the Greek, Strong’s #1588, eklektos.

Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Strong’s #972, bachiyr, taken from the same root as bachar, meaning “selectâ€Â.

1 Chronicles 16:13 O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones.

“Chosen ones†= bachiyr

Psalm 33:12 Blessed is the nation whose God is Yahweh; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.

“Chosen†= bachar. Also, according to Deuteronomy 9:29 and Psalm 78:71, Israel was and remains Yahweh’s inheritance.

Psalm 105:6 O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.

“Chosen†= bachiyr.

Psalm 135:4 For Yahweh hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure.

“Chosen†= bachar. Israel remains Yahweh’s inheritance and treasure and peculiar people, not individuals or any other nation or group of people. That includes those who would rather consider themselves “gentiles†(they need to read Isaiah 56:2-8, and Isaiah 44:5 for a few rebuttals from Yahweh on that) and those who hold to dispensationalist thought and separate entity theology. These are abominable falsehoods that I know Yahweh hates according to his own Word.

Isaiah 41:8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.
Isaiah 41:9 Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.

“Chosen†= bachar. Yahweh declares here that he will not cast Israel away. An open, clear declaration, as is this:

Psalm 94:14 For Yahweh will not cast off his people, neither will he forsake his inheritance.

As was said, Israel according to Yahweh’s own word remains his inheritance and he will not cast them away.

Jeremiah 33:24 Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which Yahweh hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.
Jeremiah 33:25 Thus saith Yahweh; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
Jeremiah 33:26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.

Yahweh has chosen (bachar) two families (not nations). These families are the divided houses of Judah and Ephraim Israel whom Yahweh will unite and is uniting even now (though many believers who are a part of this do not know it). He will not cut them off. If he does, day and night will cease and the laws that hold heaven and earth together will pass away.

Jeremiah 31:35 Thus saith Yahweh, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; Yahweh of hosts is his name:
Jeremiah 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith Yahweh, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
Jeremiah 31:37 Thus saith Yahweh; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith Yahweh.

When you can measure the universe or stop the stars from shining, fellow believers, then and only then will Israel cease to be Yahweh’s only elect and peculiar people as a nation.

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith Yahweh, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

No covenant with gentiles or any other separate entities. Only with these two reunited houses that Yahweh, through Messiah Yahshua will unite and is reuniting, has a covenant been made with. Either you are a part of them, or you are not; and if you are not, good luck in attaining the promises of Yahweh. Gentiles are not in and not of the New Yahrushalayhim (Revelation 22:15). No place for them.

In Hebrews 12:23, the author calls the “church†(ekklesia) the “firstborn†(prototokos). This is your place. This is who you are called to be. But who is the firstborn?

Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith Yahweh, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Exodus 4:23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

Cut and dry. All believers in Yahshua are Abraham’s seed (Galatians 3:29, the Greek word being sperma, his literal sperm, not one Israel who is physical called “Jews†and some separate entity “spiritual†Israel called “gentile Christiansâ€Â; all believers are both spiritual and physical Israel; no mystical body as the RCC teaches). We are the adoption (who is Israel according to Romans 9:4) and are the inheritance and obtain the inheritance (Colossians 3:24; Hebrews 9:15; 1 Peter 1:4). Ephesians 2:11-22 reveals that we once being gentiles in the flesh now receive and become apart of the “covenants of promise†of Israel and join the “commonwealth of Israelâ€Â.

What about the New Testament? Does the New Testament and Messiah’s ministry have anything to do with this? Didn’t our Christ make it clear that he was going to build a “church†(proper word being ekklesia, meaning “assembly†or “congregationâ€Â) in Matthew 16:18? What about his calling Paul to preach to the gentiles (properly meaning “nationsâ€Â, not pagans in the nations)?

Does the New Testament reflect the numerous prophecies and promises of Yahweh to rebuild and restore Israel in Messiah’s ministry? Indeed it does. If it did not, we might as well get rid of our bibles. Yahweh has been exposed as a liar if these aren’t true. But we know Messiah spoke in the more advanced levels of Hebraic interpretation, chiefly allegory, hint and mystery understanding (check Matthew 13:35 quoting Psalm 78:2). His disciples who wrote the letters of our New Testament, especially Paul (who we are warned about to heed his mysterious and hard to understand letters in 2 Peter 3:15-17) wrote of things also in this type of understanding. That’s why we must be learned or decently taught in the Tanach and Torah before we try to interpret the New Testament (and of course, sadly, many people are not learned; we all could use a little and a lot more understanding).

But Messiah’s ministry and the things spoken of in the NT that pertain and fulfill the scriptures concerning all these things are for another thread. For now though, I will end this with these:

Matthew 2:6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, art not the least among the princes of Judah: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

Not any other people.

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Was not sent to gentiles or to make gentiles into a people called the “church†and forget and replace the Jews (who are only one house of Israel, not all of them) .

Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Not over some separate entity church apart from Israel.

Luke 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

This man, filled with the Spirit, knew Messiah’s true mission.

Luke 24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

The two disciples who were walking when Yahshua appeared to them after his resurrection knew his true mission: to redeem and restore Israel, not cast them aside for now and build the “churchâ€Â.

John 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

Not any other people. He is King of Israel.

Acts 5:31 Him hath Yahweh exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Messiah was given primarily for Israel (and for a “light†or beacon to the nations/gentiles to join Israel, wherein also is the scattered seed or lost sheep of Israel whom he came to find).

Acts 13:23 Of this man's seed hath Yahweh according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Yahshua:

According to promise, Messiah is the Savior of Israel.

Lastly:

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lod, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Acts 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that Ruach Hakodesh is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

His disciples were concerned with the restoration of Israel. They didn’t look to Pentecost to start the “gentile churchâ€Â.

Questions? Concerns? Ask (I have a feeling where some of you will take me in the New Testament: Romans 11 and a few others most likely; scriptures like Romans 11 must be taken in context according to the sum of the Word; Psalm 119:160).


Peace and much love.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Wavy:

Very interesting post. And I agree what you said about the elect. In the book I mentioned on the other thread Judah's Sceptre and Joseph's birthright, Allen talks about two types of elections: the election of race and the election of grace. The race has the earthly blessings all promised to Abraham in whom are the grace crowd that brings the blessings to all nations thru the gospel preaching (comparing the scripture where he reserved 7000 that did not bow to Baal).

I wanted to ask you--- what is your take (and scripture) on what Jesus said, "Many are called but few are chosen"? You dealt very well with the chosen/elect terminology, but I was wondering about the "called" part.

Thanks.

 

[farley]

wavy,

Thanks for your insight on predestination. Not being a Calvinist myself, I'm thinking that there are a few Calvinists here, who will take issue with your views.

But, there doesn't seem to be a rush to post rebuttals, does it?

My studying on predestination, and the tenet 'once saved, always saved', which follows, as per Calvin, has led me to view the 'elect' as being the apostles of Jesus Christ, John the Baptist, and probably the OT prophets.

Jews, of course, but nothing close to the interpretation you have made.

Thanks for posting this thread!

farley

 

[wavy]

I wanted to ask you--- what is your take (and scripture) on what Jesus said, "Many are called but few are chosen"? You dealt very well with the chosen/elect terminology, but I was wondering about the "called" part.

Thanks.

Talking about the remnant, imo. Out of the millions of Israelites all over the world (I'd say 4 billion at leasts, since they became and are becoming the "fullness of the nations/gentiles" according to Genesis 48:19 and Romans 11:25), only a remnant will return. I'd say about 3-4 million, a number around the amount of Israelites when they left Egypt. This is still a great multitude though; the same multitude mentioned in Genesis 32:12 as a promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The same multitude mentioned In 7th chapter of Revelation that becomes kings and priests for abiding the Great Tribulation.

All are invited to attend the wedding feast of King Yahshua and join his people as one of them, but not all live up to that call. Those who come in the right garments (true obedience to Torah with Messiah's atonement, I believe) will be chosen.

 

[wavy]

I'm thinking that there are a few Calvinists here, who will take issue with your views.

They couldn't possibly refute it though; else they would have to basically chop off 99% of the bible. They'll just have to be mad and take it in. I always, I admit, get somewhat mad, or rather uncomfortable when I hear something against what I believe and can't find scripture to prove it wrong. Then I usually end up studying it, seeing it, and then believing it.

But, there doesn't seem to be a rush to post rebuttals, does it?

True, but I think that is because they think I'm crazy and that it was too long to read. I doubt that it was for lack of something to say (though I doubt any scriptural proof can possibly be presented to prove at least the majority of it wrong).

My studying on predestination, and the tenet 'once saved, always saved', which follows, as per Calvin, has led me to view the 'elect' as being the apostles of Jesus Christ, John the Baptist, and probably the OT prophets.

Yes, all of them are the elect because they are included in Israel. Messiah is even called Israel, as you might know, from reading Isaiah. He is the personification of the firstborn Son Israel as a nation should be. That's why we should model ourselves after his image.

Jews, of course, but nothing close to the interpretation you have made.

Well, what would you do with those scriptures then? Do you agree?

 

[farley]

wavy,

Well, what would you do with those scriptures then? Do you agree?

Yes, thanks to your BCV references, you have made your points very clear. I like to think that my research would have eventually taken me to the understanding that you have ultimately provided.

None of my friends, and fellow church members, have agreed with my views on the apostles being predestined. My related posts on other forums die with no responses.

I see difficult, seemingly conflicting, passages, such as Hebrews 6:4-6 and 10:26, as only making sense if the author is speaking about himself and the other apostles, or some other subset of the elect. But, that is just me!!

I really enjoy reading your comments, so far, I feel like the truth is been illuminated by your posts.

Thanks,

farley

 

[bbas 64]

I wanted to ask you--- what is your take (and scripture) on what Jesus said, "Many are called but few are chosen"? You dealt very well with the chosen/elect terminology, but I was wondering about the "called" part.

Thanks.

Talking about the remnant, imo. Out of the millions of Israelites all over the world (I'd say 4 billion at leasts, since they became and are becoming the "fulness of the nations/gentiles" according to Genesis 48:19 and Romans 11:25), only a remnant will return. I'd say about 3-4 million, a number around the amount of Israelites when they left Egypt. This is still a great multitude though; the same multitude mentioned in Genesis 16:10 as a promise to Abraham, the same multitude mentioned In Revelation 7 that becomes kings and priests for abiding the Great Tribulation.

All are invited to attend the wedding feast of King Yahshua and join his people as one of them, but not all live up to that call. Those who come in the right garments (true obedience to Torah with Messiah's atonement, I believe) will be chosen.

Good day, Wavy

As to you take on Matt 22:

All are invited to attend the wedding feast of King Yahshua and join his people as one of them, but not all live up to that call. Those who come in the right garments (true obedience to Torah with Messiah's atonement, I believe) will be chosen

In order to hold this view one would have to simply disreguard the historical context with in the Parable. The King supplied the wedding garments, they were given to some of the invited "all", and handed out in accordance with the will of the King as to hounor the Son and his Bride.

Join his people as one of them???

Mat 22:3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Mat 22:4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
Mat 22:5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
Mat 22:6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

Mat 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
Mat 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
Mat 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.


The bidden would not come, the King killed them for their actions.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[wavy]

Good day, Wavy

Hello.

As to you take on Matt 22:

[quote:33031]All are invited to attend the wedding feast of King Yahshua and join his people as one of them, but not all live up to that call. Those who come in the right garments (true obedience to Torah with Messiah's atonement, I believe) will be chosen

In order to hold this view one would have to simply disreguard the historical context with in the Parable. The King supplied the wedding garments, they were given to some of the invited "all", and handed out in accordance with the will of the King as to hounor the Son and his Bride.[/quote:33031]

I don't particularly understand your use of “historical contextâ€Â.

Join his people as one of them???

Mat 22:3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Mat 22:4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
Mat 22:5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
Mat 22:6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

Mat 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
Mat 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
Mat 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

The bidden would not come, the King killed them for their actions.

Oh, so your assumption is that those bidden are Israel, and they didn’t come thus he had to call some type of new people? Defies all scripture above. Anyway, in context, I believe this refers to unrepentant, unsaved parts of Jewish Israel (not the house of Judah as a whole). If we read the preceding chapter (Matthew 21:45), we’ll find that Yahshua is sayings these things to the leaders of Jewish Israel. Unredeemed Judah is the man who tried to come in the wrong garments (enter the kingdom without the blood atonement of Messiah). The context of Matthew 21, Matthew 22, and Matthew 23 are the Pharisees and the scribes and the priests, a.k.a. the leaders of Jewish Israel. Nothing in this context indicates the nation as a whole.

So basically, he was not talking about the whole nation of Israel (both houses) in context. You picked this grain of scripture, but you have yet to explain the numerous passages above that identify Israel as Yahweh’s one and only eternal, chosen/elect people (no offense).

 

[JM]

From centuries past up to the present there have been arguments between who exactly is the “true church†of our Father Yahweh. There are many beliefs concerning who the true followers of Messiah are: Catholics, various Protestant denominations, Gnostics, Messianic Jewish sects, Jehovah’s Witnesses...a whole multitude of different people who claim to know and hold the truth as Yahweh’s one and only people. This causes nothing but confusion to both the believer and the rest of the world.

I passed over this topic because the tone of the post was combative, and I didn’t feel Wavy would be open enough to consider he might just be in error…but after he challenged me to read it, in an effort to correct my misunderstandings I decided to have another look. As you can see from the above quote, Wavy feels most of us have it wrong and he is more then happy to correct all of us…so I asked myself, ‘what could a mere idiot believer add?’ Maybe nothing, but I’d like to try.

Alright, so you are waiting to hear my standpoint, aren’t you? Well, the first thing I will say is that all of the above people along with hundreds of others are, strictly according to scripture, simply and flat out incorrect.

Hummmmmmmm, NO. I didn’t really want your opinion; I’ve heard it many times before from Arminians all over the net. Before I opened it I knew what this post was all about from other posts you’ve made. What really god me, is the strange way you see yourself. Everyone else (‘all of the above’) is incorrect and you are the new Avatar or truthsayer. A revealer of God’s word for the rest of mankind. If this isn’t correct, I apologize, it’s the impression I get from your opening statements.

However, that is not the topic I wanted to directly put emphasis on (who the first followers of Messiah really were and what he really taught) although elements of it will be explained all throughout this comprehensive study. What I want to touch on is the doctrine of predestination and exactly what it means to be the “electâ€Â. This has been a controversial debate topic among believers, and this study will hopefully clear up some of the “weird†and unscriptural views that people hold concerning this topic.

(KJV, words of Yahweh always in black italics)

Right off the bat I simply state I disagree with your view of eleciton, how you seem to think only Israel will be saved. One moment you sound Reformed on national election and next Arminian on individual election.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Wavy, I keep reading your appeal for posters to use context, I now make that appeal to you as well. The context you wish all of us to find is Wavy’s context and may not be correct the Biblical context.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (‘neither indeed can be’ is translated as ‘not able’ in the NASB.)

Paul does a nice job of bringing us to Romans 8:29-30 by letting us know the unregenerate cannot please God while in the flesh. Is true saving faith pleasing to God? Sure is. So how are we able to please God unless we are in the Spirit? We can’t. Latter in the chapter Paul writes about how the believer will eventually be conformed to the image of His Son. This is predestination for sanctification, this is assurance.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Yahshua Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

You quote it yourself, ‘before the foundation’ is what the plain Scripture tells us, your allowing your emotions to drive your argument and cloud your reasoning of the Word. I have to ask, can you see the end from the beginning? Who are you to judge God? I’m left with the impression that you believe God owes man salvation or a crack at it, as if God doesn’t have a plan. In context of Romans 8 we find the carnal mind is not subject to, or as E. W. Bullinger translates, ‘does not subject itself to’ God and cannot be. All mankind, because of actual sin is on there way to hell…we are rebels and the unregenerated mind at ‘enmity’ with God. God by His grace has elected out of this mass of rebels a people….some to salvation while others are left (as they like it) in there sin.

These scriptures are the key scriptures in teaching the doctrine of predestination ("chosen" in Ephesians 1:4 being eklegomai or "elected/selected"). Some people believe it means certain individuals are chosen for salvation while others are not because Yahweh has mercy on whom he’ll have mercy and compassion likewise (Exodus 33:19; Romans 9:15). Some believe that Yahweh’s justification for predestination is because we all lived a past life and Yahweh has chosen us according to that life in a first, as opposed to this second and the coming earth age. Some believe all this means is that Yahweh, knowing the future and already had in his mind which individuals were going to be saved and obey him, set his salvation plan from the beginning (which is true, but this doesn’t explain who the elect are).

However, is Yahweh, God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob so unjust as to choose some individuals specifically for salvation while there is no chance for others?

I believe most of the different sides of predestination doctrine are all in error. How? I do not believe the “elect†are specifically chosen individuals. That’s not what scripture teaches. Because people have so little knowledge, being taught by many idiots (lol) who call themselves “pastorsâ€Â, about their inheritance and place in Yahweh’s plan, this simple, easy-to-prove truth is easily overlooked. The common doctrine of predestination as to who is elect and who isn’t is a selfish one. Individual Christians believers who believe Yahweh called them for their own sake and is concerned about their individual “joy†in gobbledygook situations like being able to pay your bills, living some form of “moral†life, getting jobs, making more money and going to church, along with many other crazy ideas!!! (Although Yahweh is concerned for you individually, he is no respecter of persons and does not teach from an individual standpoint in his Word, promoting brotherly love as a whole congregation, not limited to or rather specifically speaking of individuals). But I do not believe Yahweh works like that. Yahweh works on a much grander scale. He deals with people, not persons (except for a specific use). The elect are not specifically chosen individuals. To be blunt, the elect is a nation. What nation? How do we know which one it is and if this is true? Let’s take a look at scriptures where all truth should come from to guide us according to 2 Timothy 3:16:

When you use the word ‘idiots’ to describe my friends, I have to take issue. I don’t know where you’re getting your prophet complex but the name calling only hinders your argument.

To be blunt, you’re logic is faulty. The idea of an ‘elect nation’ to disprove the Calvinist expression of election has been dealt with in fine fashion by C.H. Spurgeon. http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0239.htm To sum it up, a nation is made up of individual people! Romans 9 explains it by telling us about two individuals, your argument is not sound, it’s not Biblical.

We know that Yahweh’s covenant with Abraham was to make of him a great nation (this of course, is the blessed nation; Genesis 12:2). He promised to fill the earth with his seed, and that in his seed all families of the earth would be blessed (of course, in the hint understanding it is Messiah as revealed by Paul in Galatians 3:16). In the literal, it is the families of the earth being mixed into this great nation he was going to make of Abraham, and that he would be this “seed’s†God and they his people; Genesis 17:7-8). These covenant promises were renewed and given to Isaac and Jacob (Genesis 26:3-5; Genesis 28:13-15).

Let’s look at what Yahweh has to say about Israel after he brought them out of Egypt to Mt Sinai:

Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Here Yahweh, by his eternal Word declares Israel as his peculiar people. A kingdom of priests. Greater than all other nations of the earth. Special and sanctified to Yahweh (see also Deuteronomy 7:6, Deuteronomy 14:2) Let’s take a look at something Peter wrote:

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Yahshua Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of Yahweh the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Yahshua Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Here we have mentioned of the elect again. But let’s look at something else he wrote in this same letter to these same people that will help us in figuring out who these “elect†are:

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1 Peter 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

He is referring to the exact same group of people who were at Sinai, the holy and peculiar nation of priests (he also calles them "chosen" or eklektos, the same word for "elect"). What about verse 10 here? Doesn’t it say that these people were once not a people and that they, having formerly obtained no mercy have now obtained it? Doesn’t this prove that the “elect†and the people he is talking to and about here are not Israel? No. Because there is a special identity to this people, and to most of those called “nations/gentiles†who are called to salvation in the New Testament. That is another study, however. For now, to clear up verse 10 in 2 Peter here, I will direct you towards Hosea chapters 1 & 2. Pay special heed to the key terms “mercy†and “not a people†used here by Peter. Once you read Hosea, at least the first chapter, you will find out the identity of the people whom Peter is writing to here, who seem to be mere, pagan gentiles. Same with much of the letters of the NT including and especially Paul’s, like the ones to the Romans, the Corinthians and the Ephesians. Paul indeed was an apostle to the gentiles, but for a specific reason. One which can be touched on in some other post which I will probably make.

But does Yahweh directly refer to Israel as his elect? Yes, indeed he does. Let’s take a look at some concrete references:

Ok, ok, slow down partner. You made a jump the NT will not support. Israel is the elect of God, and God will deal with Israel again in the future but you missed the point. Christ the Lord anticipated building a church (Matthew 16:18). The church also appears beside Israel as co-heirs, subjects to His ministry, as beneficiaries of His death, resurrection and Second Advent. We also find two aspects or purposes to the incarnation, the MESSIANIC relation to Christ’s office as Israel’s King and the fulfillment of the Davidic covenant (2 Samuel 7:8-18, Psalms 89:20-37, Jeremiah 33:21, 26) Jesus Christ as the Messiah will be the everlasting occupant of David’s earthly throne. (Isaiah 9:6-7, Luke 1:33) On the other side we find the mediatorial and redemptive aspect of the incarnation relating to the Abrahamic covenant, Christ is redeeming His elect, but I’m getting ahead of myself.

Back to Matthew 16:18, if these words are true, Christ had yet to build His church and this is my first point…the church was to be built latter. The second point is in relation to the promise made in Acts 1:5 fulfilled in Acts 2 when the Spirit was poured out. The third point can be found in 1 Corinthians 12:13 where we are told the baptizing work of the Spirit formed the Body of Christ. Wavy is forced to admit, no parallel to Spirit baptism is found anywhere in the OT. The believer is united with Christ as the head of the Body (Romans 6:1-10), and this teaching was a mystery completely unrevealed in the Old Testament (Ephesians 3:1-5)

See also Ephesians 1:22-23, Colossians 1:18

Take a hard look (passed your presuppositions) and make a comparative view of the position of the Jew, the Gentile, and the church may be briefly seen in the following Scriptures: the Jew (Romans 9:4-5; John 4:22; Romans 3:1-2); the Gentile (Ephesians 2:11-12; Ephesians 4:17-18; Mark 7:27-28); the Church (Ephesians 1:22-23; Ephesians 5:29-33; 1 Pet. 2:9).

ISRAEL
Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house unto a land that I will show thee (Gen. 12: 1).

For the LORD thy God bringeth thee into a good land, a land of brooks of water, of fountains and depths that spring out of valleys and hills; a land of wheat, and barley, and vines, and fig-trees, and pomegranates; a land of oil olive, and honey; a land wherein thou shalt eat bread without scarceness (Deut. 8:7-9).

And he said I am Abraham's servant. And the LORD hath blessed my master greatly, and he is become great; and he hath given him flocks, and herds, and silver, and gold, and men-servants, and maid- servants, and camels, and asses (Gen. 24:34-35).

The LORD shall cause thine enemies that rise up against thee to be smitten before thy face: they shall come out against thee one way, and flee before thee seven ways (Deut. 28:7). And the LORD shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath (Deut. 28:13).

CHURCH
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling (Heb. 3: 1).

For our conversation is in heaven (Phil. 3:20).

And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head (Matt. 8:20).

To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you (I Pet. 1:4).

Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwelling-place (I Cor. 4: 11).

And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! (Mark 10:23).

Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? (James 2:5).

They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service (John 16:2).

Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven (Matt. 18:4).

As you can see, God has a separate divine plan for both of His elect. The church was not revealed in the OT and was a myserion/mystery. Romans 16:25 reads “Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,†The church isn’t mysterious but a truth hidden and later revealed by Paul. To think of the church as Israel is not Scriptural, for what is the ‘mystery’ of which Paul wrote? If as Wavy presents the church is Israel and God has only one people, Israel, then why does the NT use terms when speaking to gentiles such as ‘fellow heirs’, ‘fellow members of the body’, ‘fellow partakers?’ Ephesians 3:9 tells us that the mystery was hidden IN God, not the OT but in God Himself! (Before anyone thinks to use the ‘as’ clause, that is only one use of the Greek term HOS, not to mention this same truth is mentioned in Colossians 1:25-26 without the use of HOS.) Other NT mysteries include: the Bride of Christ Ephesians 5:22-32, Revelations 19:7-9 and the translation of the Saints 1 Corinthians 15:51-52.
Are you sure 1 Peter 2:9 is referring to the church? When did Israel have its start? The OT tells us it was established through the sons of Jacob.
3 Basic Aspects
1. Land (Palestinian)
2. Seed (Davidic)
3. Blessing (New)

Abraham had 8 sons by 3 different women, only through Sarah's son Isaac was the Covenant to be passed. Gen. 26:2-5, 24

Provisions to Isaac
1. Blessings Gen. 26:3, 24
2. Land Promised
3. Multiply descendants & become a 'people'
4. Gentiles would be blessed
5. Based on God's covenant with Abraham

These provisions were passed on to Jacob only. Gen. 28:13-15

Provisions to Jacob
1. Land Promised to Jacob and his seed en. 28:13,15
2. Seed multiplied v.14
3. Gentiles blessed through seed

Covenant provisions confirmed to all of Jacob's twelve sons, the fathers of the twelve tribes Gen. 49. Therefore, the covenant made by God with Abraham is the Biblical definition of Jewishness, the descendance of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob are by race Jews...

We see God’s elect in the hands of Pharaoh and delivered by God only to rebel against God. This results in there failure to enter the Promised Land. Israel as a nation is viewed as a rebellious people, are you sure you’re Israel? For a better look with detail see: http://www.ncbf.net/steve/nation_of_israel.html

Isaiah 44:1 Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen:

“Chosen†being the Hebrew word Strong’s #977, bachar, meaning to “selectâ€Â. This is the same definition of “elect†in the Greek, Strong’s #1588, eklektos.

Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Strong’s #972, bachiyr, taken from the same root as bachar, meaning “selectâ€Â.

1 Chronicles 16:13 O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones.

“Chosen ones†= bachiyr

Psalm 33:12 Blessed is the nation whose God is Yahweh; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.

“Chosen†= bachar. Also, according to Deuteronomy 9:29 and Psalm 78:71, Israel was and remains Yahweh’s inheritance.

Psalm 105:6 O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.

“Chosen†= bachiyr.

Psalm 135:4 For Yahweh hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure.

“Chosen†= bachar. Israel remains Yahweh’s inheritance and treasure and peculiar people, not individuals or any other nation or group of people. That includes those who would rather consider themselves “gentiles†(they need to read Isaiah 56:2-8, and Isaiah 44:5 for a few rebuttals from Yahweh on that) and those who hold to dispensationalist thought and separate entity theology. These are abominable falsehoods that I know Yahweh hates according to his own Word.

Isaiah 41:8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.
Isaiah 41:9 Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.

“Chosen†= bachar. Yahweh declares here that he will not cast Israel away. An open, clear declaration, as is this:

Psalm 94:14 For Yahweh will not cast off his people, neither will he forsake his inheritance.

As was said, Israel according to Yahweh’s own word remains his inheritance and he will not cast them away.

Jeremiah 33:24 Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which Yahweh hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.
Jeremiah 33:25 Thus saith Yahweh; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
Jeremiah 33:26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.

Yahweh has chosen (bachar) two families (not nations). These families are the divided houses of Judah and Ephraim Israel whom Yahweh will unite and is uniting even now (though many believers who are a part of this do not know it). He will not cut them off. If he does, day and night will cease and the laws that hold heaven and earth together will pass away.

Jeremiah 31:35 Thus saith Yahweh, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; Yahweh of hosts is his name:
Jeremiah 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith Yahweh, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
Jeremiah 31:37 Thus saith Yahweh; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith Yahweh.

Well (scatchin’ my head in wonder), I’m don’t know which version of Strong’s you’re using but BACHIYR and BACHAR do not mean ‘select’ as you posted. Using Bible.crosswalk.com to up #0972 I BACHIYR found that it means ‘chosen, choice ONE, elect of God.’ #0977 BACHAR means to ‘choose, elect, decide FOR.’ Only once is selectED (past tense) found in #0977 c., it’s not even used in the KJV!

So, to sum it up…yah, Israel is God’s elect people based on His election, His choice and yah, Israel is done with yet. God has mentioned a future for Israel.

When you can measure the universe or stop the stars from shining, fellow believers, then and only then will Israel cease to be Yahweh’s only elect and peculiar people as a nation.

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith Yahweh, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

AMEN!

No covenant with gentiles or any other separate entities. Only with these two reunited houses that Yahweh, through Messiah Yahshua will unite and is reuniting, has a covenant been made with. Either you are a part of them, or you are not; and if you are not, good luck in attaining the promises of Yahweh. Gentiles are not in and not of the New Yahrushalayhim (Revelation 22:15). No place for them.

True and False.

Ephesians 3:6 = sygkleronoma = fellow heirs. Syssoma = fellow members. Symmetocha = fellow partakers. Syn means together, this refers to concorporated not incorporated membership. Jew and Gentile are made into ‘one new man.’ It was not an already in existence enmity to which Gentiles were added, Christ Jesus made the ‘new man’ as stated in Ephesians 2:15. Wavy, two were made into one. You can’t dispute what Paul clearly states, this is progressive revelation.

THE CHURCH WAS A MYSTERY.

In Hebrews 12:23, the author calls the “church†(ekklesia) the “firstborn†(prototokos). This is your place. This is who you are called to be. But who is the firstborn?

Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith Yahweh, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Exodus 4:23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

Cut and dry. All believers in Yahshua are Abraham’s seed (Galatians 3:29, the Greek word being sperma, his literal sperm, not one Israel who is physical called “Jews†and some separate entity “spiritual†Israel called “gentile Christiansâ€Â; all believers are both spiritual and physical Israel; no mystical body as the RCC teaches). We are the adoption (who is Israel according to Romans 9:4) and are the inheritance and obtain the inheritance (Colossians 3:24; Hebrews 9:15; 1 Peter 1:4). Ephesians 2:11-22 reveals that we once being gentiles in the flesh now receive and become apart of the “covenants of promise†of Israel and join the “commonwealth of Israelâ€Â.

What about the New Testament? Does the New Testament and Messiah’s ministry have anything to do with this? Didn’t our Christ make it clear that he was going to build a “church†(proper word being ekklesia, meaning “assembly†or “congregationâ€Â) in Matthew 16:18? What about his calling Paul to preach to the gentiles (properly meaning “nationsâ€Â, not pagans in the nations)?

Your understanding of key terms is flawed and has resulted in exegetical fallacy and you’re way to quick to dismiss our Lords word, ‘I will build my church.’ Lets not forget you completely ignored the Pauline revelation of the Mystery!

Does the New Testament reflect the numerous prophecies and promises of Yahweh to rebuild and restore Israel in Messiah’s ministry? Indeed it does. If it did not, we might as well get rid of our bibles. Yahweh has been exposed as a liar if these aren’t true. But we know Messiah spoke in the more advanced levels of Hebraic interpretation, chiefly allegory, hint and mystery understanding (check Matthew 13:35 quoting Psalm 78:2). His disciples who wrote the letters of our New Testament, especially Paul (who we are warned about to heed his mysterious and hard to understand letters in 2 Peter 3:15-17) wrote of things also in this type of understanding. That’s why we must be learned or decently taught in the Tanach and Torah before we try to interpret the New Testament (and of course, sadly, many people are not learned; we all could use a little and alot more understanding).

But Messiah’s ministry and the things spoken of in the NT that pertain and fulfill the scriptures concerning all these things are for another thread. For now though, I will end this with these:

So, what about the numerous prophecies and promises of YHWH, so many have come true in a literal manner are we to believe in modern allegory? Both the Orthodox Jew and the Biblicist look forward to these promises coming true, a coming Kingdom of God’s chosen living in righteousness and peace. In this Kingdom the Jews will be leaders and the nations will be blessed. The timing of the Rapture aside, this is the chiliastic view and was held by the early church. Christ will reign on earth for a 1000 years. The Bible speaks about this 1000 reign where Abraham’s physical seed and Abraham’s spiritual seed will receive the promises of the Abrahamic covenant.

His disciples were concerned with the restoration of Israel. They didn’t look to Pentecost to start the “gentile churchâ€Â.

Questions? Concerns? Ask (I have a feeling where some of you will take me in the New Testament: Romans 11 and a few others most likely; scriptures like Romans 11 must be taken in context according to the sum of the Word; Psalm 119:160).


Peace and much love.

As Christ’s disciple, I too am concerned with the restoration of rebellious Israel but unfortunity that hasn’t happened yet.

My next post will deal with election.

Peace,

jm

 

[Heidi]

The elect are simply those whom God chose before the creation of the world. These are all the people to whom He sends His Holy Spirit to make His home inside of them. And since none of us knows if we are called until we either receive the Holy Sppirit or die, then salvation is open to all. But as Jesus said; "Only a few will find it." (the narrow gate that leads to life). So the elect are people born again of the Holy Spirit. They can be found in all churches but not everyone in every church has been born again because Jesus said there will be many who call him "Lord" who will not enter the kingdom o fheaven. Only those who are born again of the Holy Spirit.

 

[JM]

An example of individual election can be found in John 10, where we read about the good shepherd. You want context, here’s your context: In ancient times shepherds would gather their folds for the night in one place as a flock with other shepherd’s folds. When it was time to move on the shepherd’s would call their sheep by NAME, the sheep would respond to the shepherd.

Israel is represented as the fold, but not all sheep in the fold/Israel respond to the call and the good shepherd Jesus Christ tells us he had other sheep which were not of this fold/Israel. Take notice how tells us that he call His sheep by name, He has a sheep that are not of this fold and that He must bring these other sheep into one fold. (John 10 also teaches limited atonement.) In v. 26 we are told in plain and simple language the reason why people do not believe, ‘But ye believe not, because you are not my sheep…v. 27 my sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me.’ How does one become a sheep? You are called. There’s nothing you can do.

The Everlasting covenant is where the persons of the Godhead entered into before time to saved the elect. Father God gives the Son, God the Son offers Himself as a perfect sacrifice while God the Holy Spirit administers the covenant. Titus 1:2, Hebrews 13:20 The elect of God are tested according to a particular purpose of God that is to be accomplished within that dispensation of time. We see a difference among God’s elect, ‘new wine in new wine skins’ Matthew 9:17 and Paul lists Jews, Gentiles and the Church.

No fancy footwork is needed.

Shalom,

JM
PS> I’m taking steps to learn Hebrew, pray 4 me!

 

[Vic C.]

An example of individual election can be found in John 10, where we read about the good shepherd. You want context, here’s your context: In ancient times shepherds would gather their folds for the night in one place as a flock with other shepherd’s folds. When it was time to move on the shepherd’s would call their sheep by NAME, the sheep would respond to the shepherd....

Nice use of the historical context. I like it. 8-)

I did want to mention one other thing. (shocking-lol)

John 10:16 speaks of a fold and a flock. Don't know how this fits into either side but...

16 And I have other sheep which are not of this fold. I must also lead those, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock, one Shepherd. (LITV)

Many translations mistranslate to say fold in both case. This is incorrect, IMO.

 

[Heidi]

So if we were chosen before the creation of the world, then how could we have had any part in our election? :o Are non-Calvinists saying that God was wrong when He chose His people because they would have the power to turn Him down? Do you think God makes mistakes and chose people who would reject Him? :o If so, then why were they the ones chosen to begin with? Why not the others who would have gladly come to Him if He gave them His Holy Spirit? :o You're not talking about a very intelligent God here.

 

[Vic C.]

Heidi, who are you speaking to?

Are non-Calvinists saying that God was wrong when He chose His people because they would have the power to turn Him down? Do you think God makes mistakes and chose people who would reject Him?

Naw, He chooses the ones He already knows won't reject them. ;-) To most of us, it is seen as "Irresistible Grace". I know it was irresistible for me. I couldn't rejected it or even felt I had to. Does that even make sense? :

 

[wavy]

Right off the bat I simply state I disagree with your view of eleciton, how you seem to think only Israel will be saved.

All believers are Israel.

Wavy, I keep reading your appeal for posters to use context, I now make that appeal to you as well. The context you wish all of us to find is Wavy’s context and may not be correct the Biblical context.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (‘neither indeed can be’ is translated as ‘not able’ in the NASB.)

Paul does a nice job of bringing us to Romans 8:29-30 by letting us know the unregenerate cannot please God while in the flesh. Is true saving faith pleasing to God? Sure is. So how are we able to please God unless we are in the Spirit? We can’t. Latter in the chapter Paul writes about how the believer will eventually be conformed to the image of His Son. This is predestination for sanctification, this is assurance.

This doesn't change what I said, however. Paul doesn't speak for individuals here. He uses key terms such as "us" in verse 31, and "we" in verse 24. We are all one body. This is not individuality. Yahweh is no respector of persons. You didn't exactly point out how I took things out of context.

You quote it yourself, ‘before the foundation’ is what the plain Scripture tells us, your allowing your emotions to drive your argument and cloud your reasoning of the Word. I have to ask, can you see the end from the beginning? Who are you to judge God? I’m left with the impression that you believe God owes man salvation or a crack at it, as if God doesn’t have a plan. In context of Romans 8 we find the carnal mind is not subject to, or as E. W. Bullinger translates, ‘does not subject itself to’ God and cannot be. All mankind, because of actual sin is on there way to hell…we are rebels and the unregenerated mind at ‘enmity’ with God. God by His grace has elected out of this mass of rebels a people….some to salvation while others are left (as they like it) in there sin.

I don't think you get the point (no offense). I'm not arguing that Yahweh didn't know. I'm arguing that the elect are not specific, individual people. The elect that he knew before was Israel, thus all Israel will be saved.

When you use the word ‘idiots’ to describe my friends, I have to take issue. I don’t know where you’re getting your prophet complex but the name calling only hinders your argument.

"Prophet complex"? I never said I was a prophet. Your "friends"? I was speaking in general. How am I talking about your "friends"? Anyway, this is just propoganda on your part to get people to think that if my character is bad, then perhaps everything I say must be thrown out before they have a chance to truly consider it. It is noted.

To be blunt, you’re logic is faulty. The idea of an ‘elect nation’ to disprove the Calvinist expression of election has been dealt with in fine fashion by C.H. Spurgeon. http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0239.htm To sum it up, a nation is made up of individual people! Romans 9 explains it by telling us about two individuals, your argument is not sound, it’s not Biblical.

Well, I'll take a look at this website, but it's probably something I have heard before. As far as Romans 9, that is the whole point. "In Isaac shall your seed be called", and "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated".

He chose these individuals to birth his elect nation. I think this brings the point home. Through Abraham, through Isaac and through Jacob are the elect born, not any one else. In context, Paul is not giving an example of elect individuals by using Isaac and Jacob. He mentions them because they are through whom the elect are born. And my logic cannot be faulty because you show me a link to some one else with a different view. You can say that as your opinion, but it doesn't make it true. I believe you have taken a few things out of context.[/color]

Ok, ok, slow down partner. You made a jump the NT will not support. Israel is the elect of God, and God will deal with Israel again in the future but you missed the point. Christ the Lord anticipated building a church (Matthew 16:18). The church also appears beside Israel as co-heirs, subjects to His ministry, as beneficiaries of His death, resurrection and Second Advent.

I have a good grasp on Matthew 16:18, I believe. I didn't have time to add that into this post. Think I haven't read Matthew 16:18 before? Yahweh has one people and elect nation. No such thing as a "church" and then another people called "Israel". Israel (a redeemed Israel) is the "congregation" he was going to build up, or edify. Nothing here denotes "I will build a new entity 'church' of gentiles that is not Israel". Don't jump to conclusions like "the NT does not support" without proof. He is building up new covenant Israel.

You also made a "jump" the NT does not support. Yahweh continued his dealings with Israel the moment the angel pronounced Messiah's birth, saying that he would rule over his people Israel. Nothing in the Tanach, as you admit, says anything about a "church" that was to be birthed right beside Israel. Yet your argument is references to "mystery" being the "church", but that is only inserted into the context of "mystery" scriptures based on the idea that you ALREADY believe in separate entity theology.

The mystery is tied to the "fullness of the nations", I believe, as Paul makes it clear in Romans 11:25. You have no proof as to the mystery being the building of a new entity church. And no offense when I say this, but the only thing pushing that is your imagination.

Back to Matthew 16:18, if these words are true, Christ had yet to build His church and this is my first point…the church was to be built latter.

See above. Also, the Greek word oikodomeo for "build" can mean to repair and to strengthen. It is used in such contexts as 1 Thessalonians 5:11 with the word "edify". He tells tells us to "edify" (oikodomeo) one another. I don't think that means to start a new entity of ourselves.

The second point is in relation to the promise made in Acts 1:5 fulfilled in Acts 2 when the Spirit was poured out.

Which in context, if we read Joel 2:27-29, is Israel, so this is not proof if we keep the scriptures consistent. Please go back and read Joel 2:27-29 (the entire chapter, really) and see who is the context. When he says "I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh and your sons and daughters will prophesy..." what is the context? Who's sons and daughters?

Israel. If we read with intergrity and keep the scriptures consistent we can come to the conclusion that Israel was being rebirthed (both houses present) through the new covenant fulfillment of Acts 2. And also, as far as Acts 1, the disciples were worried about the restoration of ISRAEL, if we read verse 6. Messiah answered them in that context.

The third point can be found in 1 Corinthians 12:13 where we are told the baptizing work of the Spirit formed the Body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

You may disagree, but this also brings the point home for me. Jews and Greeks (the word for "gentiles" here is Hellen which have a special indentity in the NT, at least imo) make up Israel. Both houses becoming one. One cannot take this verse and make it into "there is a separate entity church which is different from Israel..."

I don't see that here. I see this as two-house prophetic fulfillment, once again, if we keep the scriptures consistent.

Wavy is forced to admit, no parallel to Spirit baptism is found anywhere in the OT. The believer is united with Christ as the head of the Body (Romans 6:1-10), and this teaching was a mystery completely unrevealed in the Old Testament (Ephesians 3:1-5)

No, I am not:

1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1 Corinthians 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1 Corinthians 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1 Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Here he calls these people from the wilderness "our fathers", thus proving the Isrealite heritage of the Corinthians (I have a whole, VERY LONG study on who the nations/gentiles of the NT are).

As far as Ephesians 3:1-5, I think it also agrees with the point. The mystery of the nations, Judah united with Ephraim Israel (who became the melo ha-goyim or "fullness of nations" according to Genesis 48:19 and Romans 11:25). Nothing in there that disproves what I am saying.

See also Ephesians 1:22-23, Colossians 1:18

Neither of these disprove the point. The scriptures must remain consistent. The assembly is Israel. Nothing in these scriptures denote separate entities. You are using these scriptures because you already believe there is a separate enity, but these scriptures don't say that.

Take a hard look (passed your presuppositions) and make a comparative view of the position of the Jew, the Gentile, and the church may be briefly seen in the following Scriptures: the Jew (Romans 9:4-5; John 4:22; Romans 3:1-2); the Gentile (Ephesians 2:11-12; Ephesians 4:17-18; Mark 7:27-28); the Church (Ephesians 1:22-23; Ephesians 5:29-33; 1 Pet. 2:9).

I use these to prove my points. Just posting them and telling me to read them doesn't disprove them. There is only one body. One elect. There is no "well, Israel is the elect, BUT...". None of that. Nowhere in scripture does it say that. If anybody has any "presuppositions", I'd say it was you. You use scriptures that say nothing of a separate entity church to prove a separate entity church. The reason you do this is because you look at the scriptures with the preconceived idea that a separate entity church exists. This is not logical.

As you can see, God has a separate divine plan for both of His elect.

No, no, no. You are the one making the distinction. Israel is redeemed under Messiah and the New Covenant (only both houses of Israel are in the New Covenant, no gentiles or "churches").

The church was not revealed in the OT and was a myserion/mystery.

It's not in there, because there is no such thing. You are superimposing that distinction. The "mystery" is not that some separate entity church was going to be built. No such thing. You admit that it isn't in the "OT". Why? Because it isn't. It's not true. You see the word "mystery" and use it as advantage (out of context) to prove a separate entity "church" but don't prove with scripture, how the mystery is the "church". Again, you have pressuposed that.

Romans 16:25 reads “Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,â€Â

But what is this mystery? Nothing in here denotes "separate entity" mystery of two types of elect. No such things. If we let scripture interpret scripture so that it remains consistent, we wouldn't come to this conclusion. That was the whole point of making this thread. You have distinguished the Tanach from the New Testament and thus assumed that there are two elects. My comparison of both, so that the scriptures remain consistent, is the how that is proven untrue. You haven't really disproved what I have said. You just are posting everything I disproved.

The church isn’t mysterious but a truth hidden and later revealed by Paul.

No, it isn't. You can superimpose this if you want to, but nowhere is this in scripture.

To think of the church as Israel is not Scriptural, for what is the ‘mystery’ of which Paul wrote?

That is exactly what I have set out to do. You are just bringing up the old argument. The mystery is two-house reconciliation, Ephraim Israel becoming the "fullness of nations", thus allowing Yahweh to preach the gospel to the world while searching for his lost sheep among the nations.

Your basic point here is to presuppose that the "church" (properly ekklesia) is the "mystery" and then when you find the word "mystery" you assume it is the separate entity "church". And then ask, "if it isn't the church, then what is it?" Circular reasoning.

If as Wavy presents the church is Israel and God has only one people, Israel, then why does the NT use terms when speaking to gentiles such as ‘fellow heirs’, ‘fellow members of the body’, ‘fellow partakers?’

Two-house revelation. Judah and Ephraim Israel (the two-houses) reconciled to each other under one Head according to scriptures like Ezekiel 37:16-18 and Hosea 1:11.

Anyway, you just made quotes that are taken out of context. We have to look at the context of what these things are in. To which scriptures are you referring to about "fellow heirs" etc?

One of them is about being fellow heirs ("joint-heirs" in the KJV) with MESSIAH. Israel vs. some "gentile" church is not even the context. This is more propganda and slick words to get the reader into the mindset of separate enity "church" which does not exist in the first place!

Ephesians 3:9 tells us that the mystery was hidden IN God, not the OT but in God Himself! (Before anyone thinks to use the ‘as’ clause, that is only one use of the Greek term HOS, not to mention this same truth is mentioned in Colossians 1:25-26 without the use of HOS.)

But you are superimposing "separate entity church" into the context. Yes, it does say where the mystery is hidden, but does it say the mystery is a separate entity "church"? No. You are SUPERIMPOSING that into the context. I believe it comes by revelation (and btw, I am not the only one who believes what I believe, thus your propoganda about me being some "avatar of truth" alone by myself is discredited), and we must search the scriptures to see what it is (it is not absent from them as you propose). This is how Messiah told us to do it. Whenever a truth is revealed, the bible directs us back to what is written to see if it is true.

Other NT mysteries include: the Bride of Christ Ephesians 5:22-32, Revelations 19:7-9 and the translation of the Saints 1 Corinthians 15:51-52.

The saints are Israel by the way and the bride is Israel, btw. If Yahweh dicorced Israel to marry some other bride, he'd be an adulteress.

Are you sure 1 Peter 2:9 is referring to the church?

No, it is a direct reference to Exodus 19:5-6, proving the true nature of the body and who they are. The "church" is non-existent.

Covenant provisions confirmed to all of Jacob's twelve sons, the fathers of the twelve tribes Gen. 49. Therefore, the covenant made by God with Abraham is the Biblical definition of Jewishness, the descendance of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob are by race Jews...

No, they are Israelites. To be a "Jew" you must come from Judah or Benjamin (and Levi too, since they assimilated with the the southern kingdom). But this has little to do with the point, and certainly does not prove your point. You yourself are making the distinction between "church" and Israel and attempt to find a scripture to reconcile that although no scripture says that. You find the word "mystery" and assume "it must be the separate entity church!".

(note: Jews are Israelites, but not all Israelites are specifically Jews)

We see God’s elect in the hands of Pharaoh and delivered by God only to rebel against God. This results in there failure to enter the Promised Land. Israel as a nation is viewed as a rebellious people, are you sure you’re Israel? For a better look with detail see: http://www.ncbf.net/steve/nation_of_israel.html

More commentary from websites? Anyway, only SOME of the people fell in the wilderness, not ALL of them. They were rebellious and that is why Yahweh has made a NEW COVENANT with them, both houses under Messiah to be redeemed.

Well (scatchin’ my head in wonder), I’m don’t know which version of Strong’s you’re using but BACHIYR and BACHAR do not mean ‘select’ as you posted. Using Bible.crosswalk.com to up #0972 I BACHIYR found that it means ‘chosen, choice ONE, elect of God.’ #0977 BACHAR means to ‘choose, elect, decide FOR.’ Only once is selectED (past tense) found in #0977 c., it’s not even used in the KJV!

This isn't the point. You have actually further proven my point. Israel is Yahweh's ELECT. "Selected" (past tense) has absolutely NOTHING to do with my point. You missed it entirely (no offense, but you did). This is how it appears in the Strong's for bachiyr and bachar.

H977

בּחר

bâchar

baw-khar'

A primitive root; properly to try, that is, (by implication) select: - acceptable, appoint, choose (choice), excellent, join, be rather, require.

H972

בּחיר

bâchîyr

baw-kheer'

From H977; select: - choose, chosen one, elect.

So, to sum it up…yah, Israel is God’s elect people based on His election, His choice and yah, Israel is done with yet. God has mentioned a future for Israel.

Yes, and they find this fulfillment in the New Testament with their Savior, who is Messiah. None of this disproves the point. You are yet the one making the distinction, not the scriptures.

No covenant with gentiles or any other separate entities. Only with these two reunited houses that Yahweh, through Messiah Yahshua will unite and is reuniting, has a covenant been made with. Either you are a part of them, or you are not; and if you are not, good luck in attaining the promises of Yahweh. Gentiles are not in and not of the New Yahrushalayhim (Revelation 22:15). No place for them.

True and False.

Really? We'll see what you have to say...

Ephesians 3:6 = sygkleronoma = fellow heirs. Syssoma = fellow members. Symmetocha = fellow partakers. Syn means together, this refers to concorporated not incorporated membership. Jew and Gentile are made into ‘one new man.’ It was not an already in existence enmity to which Gentiles were added, Christ Jesus made the ‘new man’ as stated in Ephesians 2:15. Wavy, two were made into one. You can’t dispute what Paul clearly states, this is progressive revelation.

Yes, both houses as one Israel. Both are partakers of the promises (what promise? all promises to Israel...). No, it was not an entity to which "gentiles" are added. It is both houses of Israel (Judah and Ephraim who had become and is becoming the melo ha-goyim ) that make Messiah's new covenant body of Israel. A redeemed Israel under their King as the fulfillment of the scriptures.

THE CHURCH WAS A MYSTERY.

You can keep stating that with the already preconcieved notion of "separate entity" in mind, but it doesn't make it any more true.

Your understanding of key terms is flawed and has resulted in exegetical fallacy and you’re way to quick to dismiss our Lords word, ‘I will build my church.’

Oh, no, which is why I said this was for another topic and I explained a little bit of it above. Even if what you are saying is true, it is not because YOU disproved it.

Lets not forget you completely ignored the Pauline revelation of the Mystery!

Nope. That's all part of this doctrine. Let's not forget that you did not even prove how it was the "church". You just assumed it was.

So, what about the numerous prophecies and promises of YHWH, so many have come true in a literal manner are we to believe in modern allegory? Both the Orthodox Jew and the Biblicist look forward to these promises coming true, a coming Kingdom of God’s chosen living in righteousness and peace. In this Kingdom the Jews will be leaders and the nations will be blessed. The timing of the Rapture aside, this is the chiliastic view and was held by the early church. Christ will reign on earth for a 1000 years. The Bible speaks about this 1000 reign where Abraham’s physical seed and Abraham’s spiritual seed will receive the promises of the Abrahamic covenant.

There is no distinction between physical and spiritual seed. That is not in scripture.

As Christ’s disciple, I too am concerned with the restoration of rebellious Israel but unfortunity that hasn’t happened yet.

Not fully, but it started when Yahweh said it and recorded in the scriptures, and came to pass in reality when the angel appeared to Miriam and Joseph about Messiah's birth. It continued throughout his ministry and continues today, with it's ultimate fulfillment when he returns.

 

[wavy]

An example of individual election can be found in John 10, where we read about the good shepherd. You want context, here’s your context: In ancient times shepherds would gather their folds for the night in one place as a flock with other shepherd’s folds. When it was time to move on the shepherd’s would call their sheep by NAME, the sheep would respond to the shepherd.

Nowhere in John 10 is individual election proven. He is actually here revealing himself as Yahweh as the restorer and gatherer of Israel. Please Read Ezekiel 34.

Israel is represented as the fold, but not all sheep in the fold/Israel respond to the call and the good shepherd Jesus Christ tells us he had other sheep which were not of this fold/Israel

.

Wrong. Sheep not of the fold of Jewish Israel.

Take notice how tells us that he call His sheep by name, He has a sheep that are not of this fold and that He must bring these other sheep into one fold. (John 10 also teaches limited atonement.) In v. 26 we are told in plain and simple language the reason why people do not believe, ‘But ye believe not, because you are not my sheep…v. 27 my sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me.’ How does one become a sheep? You are called. There’s nothing you can do.

But you are superimposing individuals into the context. This is clearly revelation of the nature of Ezekiel 34, where YHWH is the Shepherd, regathering his sheep, a.k.a. the lost sheep of the house of Israel (as opposed to Judah; please see Matthew 15:24).

The Everlasting covenant is where the persons of the Godhead entered into before time to saved the elect. Father God gives the Son, God the Son offers Himself as a perfect sacrifice while God the Holy Spirit administers the covenant. Titus 1:2, Hebrews 13:20 The elect of God are tested according to a particular purpose of God that is to be accomplished within that dispensation of time. We see a difference among God’s elect, ‘new wine in new wine skins’ Matthew 9:17 and Paul lists Jews, Gentiles and the Church.

All based off your misunderstanding of the two-house message of fulfllment, and the fact that you made NO REFERENCE to Ezekiel 34 (which he is DIRECTLY alluding to). This is why we cannot argue elect right now. There's something else you have to learn before you'll be able to see it. You are already indoctrinated by "separate entity 'church'" doctrine, thus anything I tell you and anything you understand will be from that mindset (which is error, imo).

 

[wavy]

Nice use of the historical context. I like it. 8-)

Lacked the scripture that went along with it though...

I did want to mention one other thing. (shocking-lol)

John 10:16 speaks of a fold and a flock. Don't know how this fits into either side but...

16 And I have other sheep which are not of this fold. I must also lead those, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock, one Shepherd. (LITV)

Many translations mistranslate to say fold in both case. This is incorrect, IMO.

One fold is Judah (Jewish Israel). The sheep not of this fold are Israelites scattered and exiled throughout all nations. He came for them ALONE according to Matthew 15:24. Thus when he unites Judah and Ephraim Israel, there will be one redeemed flock.

Ezekiel 34:22 Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle.
Ezekiel 34:23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.

 

[wavy]

I passed over this topic because the tone of the post was combative, and I didn’t feel Wavy would be open enough to consider he might just be in error…but after he challenged me to read it, in an effort to correct my misunderstandings I decided to have another look. As you can see from the above quote, Wavy feels most of us have it wrong and he is more then happy to correct all of us…so I asked myself, ‘what could a mere idiot believer add?’ Maybe nothing, but I’d like to try.

And I forgot to comment on this. This is mere propoganda to discredit me in front of other people before they actually, with integrity, consider what I said.

Ad hominem, if you will.

But anyway, believers, I couldn't possibly have called any of you wrong, since I don't know what any of you believe (about this topic). I was just giving my take on it. There are many different and conflicting views on these types of forum websites (I'm a member of several). Thus, people, inevitably are going to think some one else is wrong. But he made it seem as if it was a personal thing directly against you guys so as to make it seem like I was arrogant and thought I was the "new Avatar or truthsayer. A revealer of God’s word for the rest of mankind", as he referred to me.

Anyway, I really don't want to play the blame game here. I just wanted to clear this up. I was only presenting my viewpoint (can we do anything else?).

So truly consider with intergrity.

 

[wavy]

I've just taken a look at both of those websites, JM. I think both are filled with bias and error.

It's...I mean...I am in awe.

 

[JM]

This link may help you clear up the issues you have with the Gentile believers http://www.levitt.tv/ , it seems you have an issue with Paul, not me.

Keep waving Wavy. :smt018