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Who is the army of Rev. 19: 14.

for_his_glory

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I did the one verse because it's undisputable .Now let's start at the subject which is those who have died

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

Again the subject is those who have died

This concern is over "them which are asleep". The concern is over the loved ones that have died and left them, and their decaying bodies are out there in their grave. Paul is saying for us not to be sorry about those Christians who are dead and gone, for that is the concern of the heathen. The heathen's fear comes from their ignorance of God's word, and His promises. The heathen have no hope, for they believe it's over at the burial.


I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].

It was on the fortieth day that he ascended back to the Father. When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, that had passed on, up to that point in time. The souls of some went to wait for that time of judgment, while others to the glory of God. Those that sleep [are dead] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. The dead are with God; all of them. "To be absent from the body [flesh body] is to be present with the Lord." Ecclesiastes 12:7.

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise [precede] them which are asleep."

This, Paul states, is not his words, but it is from the Word God gave to him. Where? Ecclesiastes 12:7, that is where it is written.

"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord," this is our gathering back to Jesus Christ. "Shall not prevent them", would be better translated, "We are not going to precede [go before] them." We can not precede them for a very simple reason; the dead are already there with God. It is the only logical fact that can come from this. If you do not, or will not believe this, then you believe in soul sleep as the heathen do, and the hope and glory Paul is speaking of, for the Christian, and you are ignorant of God's glory. Whether victorious, or sentenced to hell, all the dead are now with the Father, and not in the ground.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The whole subject of Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is about the coming of the Lord on the last day who will send His angels out to the four corners of the earth to gather together those who are still alive at His coming and those who sleep in the ground.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Here dust + breath/spirit from God = a living soul. When the flesh dies physically it returns back to the dust of the ground and our spirit is preserved with God for final judgment.

Ecc 12:7 then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

This body/flesh dies and deteriorates as it turns back to dust while in the ground. The breath/spirit goes back to God who gave it, Ecc 12:7. The soul which makes up the conscious part of ones being is that of thought, action and emotion, which there is none of that when we die as there is no more brain activity . The spiritual nature of man regarded as immortal and separable from the body/flesh at death and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state.

We return to the dust of the ground when this physical body dies and our breath/spirit returns to God as we wait for Gods final judgment when Christ returns. Our spirit can never die and is preserved until Gods final judgment on the last day when Christ returns, John 5:28-29; John 6:40.
 

for_his_glory

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Gonna focus on John 3:13 , do you understand this verse ?
And what it means to be born again, correctly interpreted meaning born from above

We come from Heaven, there is where we were before being born of woman ,even Christ Himself came and did the same
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The "he" in that verse is Jesus who came down from heaven being the word of God made flesh to walk among them.
Being Spiritually born again can only come from up above by that of God's Holy Spirit that indwells us at that time.

Please show me the scripture that says we come from heaven. What comes from heaven is the very breath of God breathed into us that makes us a living soul. That breath that goes back to Him when we die is not the army of the host that returns with Him.
 

Oseas

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If you are referring to the seven angels sent by God to the seven churches in Asia, Rev 2-3, then you can clearly see who they are. The message given for instruction to the seven churches still stands today and forever until the return of Christ.
Yes, what does the Word of GOD reveal about the angels of the churches?
Revelation 1:v.19 - Write the things which thou have seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
What was hapenning with the angels of the Churches around year 95AD, and only 65 years after the ascension of JESUS? (Question: And is not also happening the same things today, in the end of the times? Maybe very worse things) Here goes:

Church of Ephesus - the angel left his first love and was fallen - And the Church, what was its spiritual condition?
1 - Conditions of the angel of the church of Ephesus: Rev. 2:4-5 - 4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. 5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and REPENT, and do the FIRST works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, EXCEPT YOU REPENT.

Church of Pergamos - the angel was tolerant with bad things-idolatry, fornications. Meditate on it and feel what the spiritual condition of the Church was like.
2 - Conditions of the angel of the church of Pergamos - Rev. 2:14-16 - 14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the DOCTRINE OF BALAAM, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and TO COMMIT FORNICATION. 15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate. 16 REPENT; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the Sword of my mouth.

Church of Thyatira - the angel was tolerant with fornications and with the devilish Jezabel's doctines of idolatries and more fornications. Meditate on it and feel what the spiritual condition of the Church was like.
3 - Conditions of the angel of the church of Thyatira - Rev.2: 20-21 - 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit FORNICATION, and to eat things SACRIFICED UNTO IDOLS. 21 And I gave her space to REPENT of her fornication; and she repented not.

Church of Sardis - the angel was spiritually dead - And the Church? Meditate on it and feel what the spiritual condition of the Church was like.
4 - Conditions of the angel of the angel of Sardis - Rev.3:1-3 - And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. (The dead praise not the Lord,...Psalms 115:v.17) Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and REPENT. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Church of Laodiceah - the angel was wretched, miserable, poor, BLIND and naaked. And the Church? Meditate on it and feel what the spiritual condition of the Church was like.
5 - Conditions of the angel of the church of Laodiceah - Rev.3:16-17 - 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou ARE WRETCHED, AND MISERABLE, AND POOR, and BLIND, and NAKED: (Well, if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.)

Churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia
6 - About the Churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia, there was not problems with the angels of them, but with the members of the Church and admirers of the Jews or inhabitants of Israel:

Church of Smirna
Rev. 2:v.9 - I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN.

Church of Philadelphia
Rev. 3:9 - Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
All these things above are happening in the Churches of the present time, the time of Apocalypse, where many members or almost all members are admirers of the Jews in general, and discern not them which are liars and are of the synagogue of Satan. - Romans 9:v.6 - For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

In Christ JESUS, KING of kings (kings made by Him), and LORD of lords
Oseas (Hosea)

Angels are spirit and can never die, but some are reserved for judgement who fell away from God, Jude 1:6
There are two kind of spirits : The spirit of Truth and the spirit of Lies. It is not only the spirit of the angels can never die, the spirits of demons never dies too. When JESUS went into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with a legion of spirit of demons, having JESUS cast them out, they go away into the herd of swines. The whole herd of swines ran violently down into the sea and perished in the waters. THE SWINES DIED, BUT THE SPIRITS OF DEMONS DID NOT DIE.

Furthermmore, it is that legion of demons that did get out of the swines who works until today in the world of Devil.
 
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Oseas

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I think you need to be careful switching and/or misapplying " angel"- a pure spirit messanger , and messenger - physical prophet of God. Angel is not the universal replacement word whenever "messenger" is used.

It is very interesting for us in these last days, in this time of the end of the world, to understand better about angels / messengers of GOD the Almighty. Actually, according Scriptures, the angels are not ONLY and ONLY SPIRITS as many think. In fact, only GOD the Father -the Word- is Spirit- as JESUS said: John 4:v.24.

On what Scripture is your interpretation based?

Only for to meditate: How are the angels created? JESUS reveals how the angels are created by GOD-the Word-in Luke 20:v.35-36. Check it, It is interesting to see and understand.

Jude 1:v.6 - And the angels which kept not their first estate -celestial estate-, but left their own habitation-left their celestial estate-, He -GOD-the Word-hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the Judgment of this great Day. - that is, the Lord's Day -

JESUS said: John 4:v.24 - GOD is a Spirit: (the Word is GOD) and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. JESUS also said: The WORDS that I speak unto you, they -the words- ARE SPIRIT, and they are life. (So spirit are sounds coming out from the mouth of men/woman, it's that he who speaks through the mouth of men. Everyone who posts here on this and other Christian sites does so according to the spirit that is in them.

And there are two types of spirits, the spirit of Truth and the spirit of lies.
 

n2thelight

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John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The whole subject of Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is about the coming of the Lord on the last day who will send His angels out to the four corners of the earth to gather together those who are still alive at His coming and those who sleep in the ground.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Here dust + breath/spirit from God = a living soul. When the flesh dies physically it returns back to the dust of the ground and our spirit is preserved with God for final judgment.

Ecc 12:7 then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

This body/flesh dies and deteriorates as it turns back to dust while in the ground. The breath/spirit goes back to God who gave it, Ecc 12:7. The soul which makes up the conscious part of ones being is that of thought, action and emotion, which there is none of that when we die as there is no more brain activity . The spiritual nature of man regarded as immortal and separable from the body/flesh at death and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state.

We return to the dust of the ground when this physical body dies and our breath/spirit returns to God as we wait for Gods final judgment when Christ returns. Our spirit can never die and is preserved until Gods final judgment on the last day when Christ returns, John 5:28-29; John 6:40.
I understand the verses ,question does the flesh rise ? Let's go from there.

Oh, and the spirit can die (2nd death)
 

Oseas

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I understand the verses ,question does the flesh rise ? Let's go from there.

Oh, and the spirit can die (2nd death)
REvelation 20:v.5 and 12-15
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years (this current millennium, the seventh and last millennium) were finished.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before GOD; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were Judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were Judged every MAN according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the BOOK OF LIFE life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 13:v.7-8

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints,
and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the BOOK OF THE LIFE of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
 

n2thelight

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REvelation 20:v.5 and 12-15
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years (this current millennium, the seventh and last millennium) were finished.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before GOD; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were Judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were Judged every MAN according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the BOOK OF LIFE life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 13:v.7-8

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints,
and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the BOOK OF THE LIFE of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

Do you understand the dead in this chapter

Gonna try and break it down for ya

At the return of Christ at the 7th and last trump (ALL) will be changed. Those not in Christ although changed will have a mortal soul, meaning they can die the 2nd death .
 

Goldwing

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I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise [precede] them which are asleep."

"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord,"
this is our gathering back to Jesus Christ. "Shall not prevent them", would be better translated, "We are not going to precede [go before] them." We can not precede them for a very simple reason; the dead are already there with God. It is the only logical fact that can come from this."


n2thelight, your personal logic is getting in the way of a “thus sayeth the Lord”. The Bible clearly states the reason why the living will not precede those who are asleep/dead is because both the righteous living and dead are “gathered up together” to meet the Lord in the air. (1 Thess. 4:16,17)

Your current understanding is creating an internal conflict within these texts. That is a sign your understanding is incorrect because the Bible never contradicts itself. Truth is understood when we discover the harmony of the sum of all the parts as it pertains to any subject.

I will provide you with a portion of a bible study on the condition of man in death. I ask that you consider it prayerfully. If you can except this information you then will find harmony within the texts given throughout the Bible as it speaks to the issue of death.

Spirit Returns to God

“And the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit [ruach] returns to God who gave it.” ( Ecclesiastes 12:7, insertion mine.) Some people use this text to prove that the spirit of man, something intelligent returns to God at the time of death.

Advocates of the external soul reason that when the body and the spirit are separated, the spirit (or “ruach”) returns to God who gave it. The Hebrew word “ruach” means wind or breath. Notice how this word is translated a few verses earlier: “As you do not know the path of the wind [ruach], or how the body is formed in a mother’s womb, so you cannot understand the work of God, the Maker of all things.” ( Ecclesiastes 11:5)

The ruach of the righteous, as well as the ruach of the wicked, returns to God at death! The text is clear on this point: The “breath of life” is a gift from God to all people at birth and the “breath of life” [ruach] returns to God who gave it when we die, regardless of our moral behavior!

Job’s use of the word “ruach” helps clarify the meaning even further. He says, “As long as I have life within me, the breath [ruach] of God in my nostrils, my lips will not speak deceit.” ( Job 27:3,4 [KJV]) An unrefined translation of Job’s comment might read, “As long as I have life within me and the breath from God in my nose, my lips will not speak lies.”

Neither Solomon nor Job used the word “ruach” to mean a conscious spirit roaming the heavens. King David also knew that death brought an end to consciousness. He said, “Do not put your trust in princes, in mortal men, who cannot save. When their spirit [nephesh] departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.” ( Psalms 146:3,4)

The Hebrew word “nephesh” also means breath. This word is used many times in the Bible to describe the breath of living creatures. Notice: “And the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath [nephesh] of life, and man became a living being.” ( Genesis 2:7)

Concerning the flood, the Bible says, “Everything on dry land that had the breath [nephesh] of life in its nostrils died.” ( Genesis 7:22, insertion mine.)

King David believed the dead were in their graves and not in Heaven praising the Lord. He said, “It is not the dead who praise the Lord, those who go down to silence; it is we [the living] who extol the Lord . . . .” ( Psalm 115:17,18, insertion mine.)

The Apostle Peter also confirmed this point. On the day of Pentecost he spoke about King David saying, “Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day . . . For David did not ascend to heaven . . . .” ( Acts 2:29,34)

Solomon leaves no room for doubt regarding this topic. He explains the state of man in death very clearly. He said that the dead are unaware of anything that occurs on Earth. He wrote, “For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.” ( Ecclesiastes 9:5,6)

Jesus Called Death “Sleep”
Many Christians do not correctly understand man’s condition in death. Thirteen times in the New Testament, death is called sleep. There are two reasons for this: First, death is actually like a sleep. (See John 11:11-14.) There is no awareness in death (or during a good night’s sleep). Second, the first death is temporary (just as sleep is temporary), whereas the second death lasts forever. When Lazarus, the brother of Mary and Martha died, Jesus referred to Lazarus’ death as sleep. ( John 11.) Why did Jesus refer to Lazarus as being asleep?

For an obvious reason – the death that Lazarus experienced was temporary, just like sleep is temporary. When we sleep deeply, we are unaware of our surroundings. However, sleep does not last forever. Think of the “resurrection” as a powerful awakening. Every person who lives and dies will live again and God will awaken from their sleep everyone who dies in one of two resurrections. The Bible indicates there are two resurrections – one for the saints and the other for the wicked. The first resurrection occurs at the Second Coming. This means there will be a judgment of human beings prior to the Second Coming, because Jesus will decide who is righteous and who is not before He comes. Therefore, those judged to be righteous will be resurrected at the Second Coming. ( 1 Thessalonians 4:16) The people judged to be wicked will be resurrected at the end of the millennium. ( Revelation 20:5)

This is a critical point: Natural death (the first death) is not the penalty for sin.

Natural death comes as a consequence of being separated from the Tree of Life. The penalty for sin, however, is death by execution and God will implement the penalty for sin at the end of the millennium. ( Revelation 20:14,15)

Explained in another way perhaps more clearly, one has to understand how we where formed in the beginning. According to Gen. 2:7, God combined two elements to make a soul, they are the dust of the earth/body and the breath of life/spirit. (Spirit within this contexts is not the Holy Spirit or as many believe a persons intellect that is immortal.)
In death the soul ceases to exist simply because the two elements which are needed to make a soul/living being are separated. Thus the soul is no more. If this is hard to wrap your mind around think about it in these terms. If you walk into a dark room and want light you turn on the light switch, which allows a electrical current to travel to a light bulb and the union of the electrical current with the light bulb produces the light you seek. When you exit the room and turn off the light switch the electrical current is stoped from uniting with the light bulb and the room returns to darkness.

Did the light leave the room and go to heaven or did it cease to exist? Such is the condition of man in death/sleep until a time when Christ reunites His Spirit/breath of life to all who are asleep in their graves and all will come forth in either the first or second resurrection.
 

Goldwing

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At the return of Christ at the 7th and last trump (ALL) will be changed. Those not in Christ although changed will have a mortal soul, meaning they can die the 2nd death .
n2thelight, sorry, will have to disagree with you on your statement. During the course of the tribulation, a time in which God as predetermined events in which to force the living to choose either to worship Him, or the False Prophet/Satan by receiving his mark. This period of time consist of the Seven Trumpets, during which salvation is available. After, the trumpets comes the, seven last plagues or bowl judgements. Whereas the trumpets will effect all the living as God's judgements are poured out upon the earth, equal to a third of His wrath, the bowl judgements are poured out in full measure, and will effect only those who have received the mark of the beast/false prophet.

It is at the end of these bowl judgements that Christ returns, the opening of the sixth seal. You again seem to dismiss the simple reading of Rev. 20. In vss. 1-3 we see that Satan is cast into the Abyss (spirit realm) for a thousand years so as not to deceive the nations until the thousand years have ended. Keep in mind that the wicked will be slain with the sword that comes out of Christ's mouth/command, and the birds have a feast. However, after the thousand years have ended he will be set free (of the spirit realm)

Note also vs. 5, which states that the rest of the dead (the wicked slain by Christ at his second coming) do not come to life until the thousand years have ended, which is the second resurrection. So during this thousand year period the earth is void of mankind and according to vs. 4 and 6, the saint of all ages will reign with Christ in heaven during the same thousand year period.

So clearly Rev. 20, speaks to a separation of a thousand years between the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked.
 

n2thelight

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n2thelight, sorry, will have to disagree with you on your statement. During the course of the tribulation, a time in which God as predetermined events in which to force the living to choose either to worship Him, or the False Prophet/Satan by receiving his mark. This period of time consist of the Seven Trumpets, during which salvation is available. After, the trumpets comes the, seven last plagues or bowl judgements. Whereas the trumpets will effect all the living as God's judgements are poured out upon the earth, equal to a third of His wrath, the bowl judgements are poured out in full measure, and will effect only those who have received the mark of the beast/false prophet.

It is at the end of these bowl judgements that Christ returns, the opening of the sixth seal. You again seem to dismiss the simple reading of Rev. 20. In vss. 1-3 we see that Satan is cast into the Abyss (spirit realm) for a thousand years so as not to deceive the nations until the thousand years have ended. Keep in mind that the wicked will be slain with the sword that comes out of Christ's mouth/command, and the birds have a feast. However, after the thousand years have ended he will be set free (of the spirit realm)

Note also vs. 5, which states that the rest of the dead (the wicked slain by Christ at his second coming) do not come to life until the thousand years have ended, which is the second resurrection. So during this thousand year period the earth is void of mankind and according to vs. 4 and 6, the saint of all ages will reign with Christ in heaven during the same thousand year period.

So clearly Rev. 20, speaks to a separation of a thousand years between the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked.
Can't agree, the world will worship satan because they will think he is Christ .

Who are the souls under the alter?
 

Goldwing

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Can't agree, the world will worship satan because they will think he is Christ .

Who are the souls under the alter?
n2thelight, my two previous post #149, #150, was to point out that the saints do not proceed those who are asleep in Christ, because they are taken up together, which you don't seem to understand. Post #150, was to point out that Christ does not come during the seventh trumpet, as you mentioned, since the seven bowl judgements will follow.

Did the texts I shared with you, have any effect on your understanding on either issue? Please answer.

Don't understand your first statement, since I understand that many during the tribulation will chose to worship Satan, also referred to, as the false prophet. Is it perhaps the "false prophet" another name for satan that you disagree? Please answer.

My understanding of the souls under the alter (Rev. 6:9) is this: A soul within the context of (Gen. 2:7) means a living person/being, not something man possesses, that is immortal or mortal and continues on after death as some believe. In your case it seems you believe the soul is something a man possesses and is mortal and will die the second death. I believe all the wicked will be resurrected at the second resurrection, which means body and the breath of life are reunited and they are again created as a living soul/living being/person, and being mortals, they will suffer the wages of sin, which is death by fire, which will be eternal.

Now that you clearly understand my understanding of what a soul is I will post what I believe to be the best interpretation of (Rev. 6:9), the souls under the alter.

Seal Five – The Faith of Jesus
{9} As I continued to watch, the Lamb broke open the fifth seal on The Book of Life and there was an enormous slaughter of God’s saints. I saw that Jesus had a two fold purpose for the martyrdom of His people. First, the strongest testimony that a Christian can give in defense of righteousness and truth is his willingness to lay down his life for Jesus. (Remember Stephen, the first Christian martyr?) Second, Jesus is willing to sacrifice several million Christians in order to save a few non-Christians. In other words, Jesus knows that a few non-Christians will repent and become Christians when non-Christians see the faithful testimony and death of Christians. You may think it strange that Jesus would sacrifice millions of Christians to save a few non-Christians, but remember, Jesus, who is worth more than a million worlds, was sacrificed to save us.

When temple services were conducted in Jerusalem, it was customary for priests to pour the blood of animal sacrifi ces into a large container at the base of the Altar of Burnt Offering.60 John saw the Altar of Burnt Offering in Heaven’s temple. Beneath this altar was a large container holding the blood of the saints who had been martyred because of their steadfast love for Jesus and His Word.

{10} When Cain murdered Abel, the Bible says that Abel’s blood called out to God for justice. Abel’s blood is personifi ed in Genesis because a great injustice had been inflicted on Abel. In a similar way, the blood of the martyrs will call out to Jesus from the container beneath the altar. I heard the cry, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, must this martyrdom go on? How long, O God, until You avenge our wrongful death?”

{11} Then, all of the martyrs were given a white robe (given the assurance of Christ’s righteousness, the wedding garment) and told to be patient. The saints were told that they were being used by Jesus as living sacrifices so that Jesus might save to the utmost. Martyrdom would continue until a predetermined number of martyrs were killed. In other words, after the number of believers to be killed are killed, martyrdom will serve no further purpose in saving non-Christians.

There is an interesting connection between the sword of truth (the Bible) in the second seal and the martyrdom of the saints Rev. 6:9. And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Rev. 6:10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth Rev. 6:11.
And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Trust this will answer your question. Please answer mine, and not with a texts as some do, for it seems their fearful of sharing personal opinions.
 

Oseas

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Do you understand the dead in this chapter

Gonna try and break it down for ya

At the return of Christ at the 7th and last trump (ALL) will be changed. Those not in Christ although changed will have a mortal soul, meaning they can die the 2nd death .
Scriptures explain Scriptures. Speculations, imaginations, presumptions, conjectures, opinions, based on the letter of Scripture they mean nothing, and are good for nothing, by the way, that's exactly in the way the Devil likes.

What prevails is the Word of GOD. The Word is GOD. https://purebibleforum.com/index.php?threads/the-word-is-god-great-mystery.2494/

The Lord Jesus shall be REVEALED from heaven in flaming FIRE -GOD is a devouring FIRE - taking VENGEANCE on them that know not GOD and obey not His gospel -the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ- , who shall be PUNISHED with EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION from the presence of the Lord, and from the Glory of His Power, when He comes to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe -2 Thessalonians 1:v.7-10.

The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel-MICHAEL-DANIEL 12:1-3- , and with the trump of GOD: and the dead IN CHRIST shall rise first: Then they which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...to meet the Lord , and so shall ever be with the Lord-1 Thessalonians 4:v.16-17.

When the Son of man shall come in His Glory, then shall He sit upon the throne of His Glory, and before Him shall be GATHERED all nations -according Revelation 11:v.15-18- and shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats. And shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye CURSED, into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the Devil and his messengers - Matthew 25:v.31-35 and 41and 46. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Matthew 25:v.29 - For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which HE HATH.


Be careful and be ready or get ready
 

Goldwing

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Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Here dust + breath/spirit from God = a living soul. When the flesh dies physically it returns back to the dust of the ground and our spirit is preserved with God for final judgment.

Ecc 12:7 then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

This body/flesh dies and deteriorates as it turns back to dust while in the ground. The breath/spirit goes back to God who gave it, Ecc 12:7. The soul which makes up the conscious part of ones being is that of thought, action and emotion, which there is none of that when we die as there is no more brain activity . The spiritual nature of man regarded as immortal and separable from the body/flesh at death and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state.

We return to the dust of the ground when this physical body dies and our breath/spirit returns to God as we wait for Gods final judgment when Christ returns. Our spirit can never die and is preserved until Gods final judgment on the last day when Christ returns, John 5:28-29; John 6:40.

Glory. This post I’m sure you will find upsetting, however it is not my intensions. My motive on this forum is to empress on individuals that often what they believe puts the Bible in eternal conflict, which is a indication they are misunderstanding certain issues, because the Bible never contradicts itself.


I too, share Paul’s sentiments: Colossians 1:28-29: “He [Jesus] is the one we [do not hesitate to] proclaim, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone fully mature in Christ. To this end I strenuously contend with all the energy Christ so powerfully works in me.”

So don’t feel I’m out to make you look inferior, I pray that you will be humble enough to reconsider your understanding in regard to what I post. Too, before you use your authority to bar me from this platform consider the following:

1)Freedom of speech within a democracy is crucial for it’s strengthening. For it holds those who hold controlling authority to accountability. I believe a christian forum should mirror nothing less.

2)Truth can afford to be open and transparent, for all to see. Those who would silence their critics are fearful of exposure, and losing their control, as was the case with the religious leaders and Christ.

Now to my post

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Ecc 12:7 then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Glory, quoting you, “This body/flesh dies and deteriorates as it turns back to dust while in the ground. The breath/spirit goes back to God who gave it, Ecc 12:7. The soul which makes up the conscious part of ones being is that of thought, action and emotion…”

In this quote, you redefined a soul. Gen 2:7, informs us that a “soul” is, a combination of, “two elements”, the dust of the earth + the breath of life/spirit. It’s the totality of man, a living being, including ones conscience. It is not a separate part of the body, “ just one element”, as you defined it.

“The spiritual nature of man regarded as immortal and separable from the body/flesh at death and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state.”

In this quote, you take the word “spirit, meaning breath of life” and redefine it to mean, “ the spiritual nature of man which is immortal, and has live outside of the body. Again, Gen. 2:7, informs us that only when the spirit is combined with the body is there life in the form of a soul/living person.

In this quote here, “Our spirit can never die and is preserved until Gods final judgment on the last day when Christ returns, John 5:28-29; John 6:40.”

Here in this quote, you again reinforce the idea that the “spirit/breath of life”, has a life of it’s own, before it is combined with the “dust of the earth/body.” Your understanding on both spirit and soul puts the Bible in a state of internal conflict because Gen. 2:7 says there has to be a combining of two elements, dust of the earth + spirit/breath of life, to make a living soul/being.

John 5:28,29; 6:40, reinforce the teaching that the, “spirit/breath of live” has no life of it’s own because both texts indicate that both the righteous and wicked bodies must be raised up, united with the breath of life again in order for living beings/souls, to receive either eternal rewards.

You understand that God’s final judgement occurs at Christ return is another case of putting the Bible in a state of internal conflict, because the wicked are not resurrected to receive their final judgement until a thousand literal years after the saints are resurrected when Christ returns. Read (Rev. 20).

Prayerfully Submitted
 

for_his_glory

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Glory. This post I’m sure you will find upsetting, however it is not my intensions. My motive on this forum is to empress on individuals that often what they believe puts the Bible in eternal conflict, which is a indication they are misunderstanding certain issues, because the Bible never contradicts itself.


I too, share Paul’s sentiments: Colossians 1:28-29: “He [Jesus] is the one we [do not hesitate to] proclaim, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone fully mature in Christ. To this end I strenuously contend with all the energy Christ so powerfully works in me.”

So don’t feel I’m out to make you look inferior, I pray that you will be humble enough to reconsider your understanding in regard to what I post. Too, before you use your authority to bar me from this platform consider the following:

1)Freedom of speech within a democracy is crucial for it’s strengthening. For it holds those who hold controlling authority to accountability. I believe a christian forum should mirror nothing less.

2)Truth can afford to be open and transparent, for all to see. Those who would silence their critics are fearful of exposure, and losing their control, as was the case with the religious leaders and Christ.

Now to my post

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Ecc 12:7 then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Glory, quoting you, “This body/flesh dies and deteriorates as it turns back to dust while in the ground. The breath/spirit goes back to God who gave it, Ecc 12:7. The soul which makes up the conscious part of ones being is that of thought, action and emotion…”

In this quote, you redefined a soul. Gen 2:7, informs us that a “soul” is, a combination of, “two elements”, the dust of the earth + the breath of life/spirit. It’s the totality of man, a living being, including ones conscience. It is not a separate part of the body, “ just one element”, as you defined it.

“The spiritual nature of man regarded as immortal and separable from the body/flesh at death and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state.”

In this quote, you take the word “spirit, meaning breath of life” and redefine it to mean, “ the spiritual nature of man which is immortal, and has live outside of the body. Again, Gen. 2:7, informs us that only when the spirit is combined with the body is there life in the form of a soul/living person.

In this quote here, “Our spirit can never die and is preserved until Gods final judgment on the last day when Christ returns, John 5:28-29; John 6:40.”

Here in this quote, you again reinforce the idea that the “spirit/breath of life”, has a life of it’s own, before it is combined with the “dust of the earth/body.” Your understanding on both spirit and soul puts the Bible in a state of internal conflict because Gen. 2:7 says there has to be a combining of two elements, dust of the earth + spirit/breath of life, to make a living soul/being.

John 5:28,29; 6:40, reinforce the teaching that the, “spirit/breath of live” has no life of it’s own because both texts indicate that both the righteous and wicked bodies must be raised up, united with the breath of life again in order for living beings/souls, to receive either eternal rewards.

You understand that God’s final judgement occurs at Christ return is another case of putting the Bible in a state of internal conflict, because the wicked are not resurrected to receive their final judgement until a thousand literal years after the saints are resurrected when Christ returns. Read (Rev. 20).

Prayerfully Submitted
First I have no reason to ban you from this thread, and second I find nothing of what another says to me that can upset me. To old for that nonsense.

CF is not a democracy, but a Christian forum full of diverse memberships where we come together for fellowship and share our understandings of scripture. There is no room for the "I am right, you are wrong" nonsense.

Reading your post here I see how you have misunderstood what I presented and put words in my mouth. I don't need to humble myself to you, but I do consider what you have written, even though I do not agree with you. It doesn't make either one of us right or wrong, but only giving our understanding of scripture.

Further more I do not care to discuss this with you in this thread as we need to get back to the OP. If you would care to start a new thread on body soul and spirit you can tag me and we can discuss this further.

You have a blessed day :)
 

n2thelight

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Scriptures explain Scriptures. Speculations, imaginations, presumptions, conjectures, opinions, based on the letter of Scripture they mean nothing, and are good for nothing, by the way, that's exactly in the way the Devil likes.

What prevails is the Word of GOD. The Word is GOD. https://purebibleforum.com/index.php?threads/the-word-is-god-great-mystery.2494/

The Lord Jesus shall be REVEALED from heaven in flaming FIRE -GOD is a devouring FIRE - taking VENGEANCE on them that know not GOD and obey not His gospel -the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ- , who shall be PUNISHED with EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION from the presence of the Lord, and from the Glory of His Power, when He comes to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe -2 Thessalonians 1:v.7-10.

The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel-MICHAEL-DANIEL 12:1-3- , and with the trump of GOD: and the dead IN CHRIST shall rise first: Then they which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...to meet the Lord , and so shall ever be with the Lord-1 Thessalonians 4:v.16-17.

When the Son of man shall come in His Glory, then shall He sit upon the throne of His Glory, and before Him shall be GATHERED all nations -according Revelation 11:v.15-18- and shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats. And shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye CURSED, into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the Devil and his messengers - Matthew 25:v.31-35 and 41and 46. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Matthew 25:v.29 - For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which HE HATH.


Be careful and be ready or get ready
As I keep saying (with scripture) the dead are already risen .
No speculations on that .

Nobody has died yet(NOBODY) what one should worry about is the 2nd death, which is the death of the soul.
 

n2thelight

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Note also vs. 5, which states that the rest of the dead (the wicked slain by Christ at his second coming) do not come to life until the thousand years have ended, which is the second resurrection. So during this thousand year period the earth is void of mankind and according to vs. 4 and 6, the saint of all ages will reign with Christ in heaven during the same thousand year period.
Okay ,the only people that literally die are the 7000 that do so the moment His feet touch the ground

Revelation 11:13 "And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."

v13 are the fallen angels that have already been sentenced to death(death of the soul) there is not another soul that will die until after the white throne judgement . These angels just like satan were already sentenced to death before this age

Now let's do the dead which is that judgement

Revelation 20:12"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."


They are called the dead because they have a mortal soul

Notice there are two sets of books here. The first called "The Books" is to judge the unsaved. The second is the "Book of Life" where only the names of the saved are recorded. The saved have had their sins removed from God's judgment and booted out. Though they were committed, the blood of Christ has covered them from being used against us.

Notice how all souls are judged "according to their works". Does it talk about faith here after the Millennium? No. The "great white throne judgment" will not take faith into consideration. The first resurrection takes faith into consideration. That was back on "the Lord's day". That was Jesus Christ's "great day". On the last day of the Millennium age, souls are judged by works only.

Why are you judged for works only? Faith is something hoped for but unseen. You don't see Jesus Christ on earth today, you will see his wonderful works, and be led by Him and His Spirit in the Millennium age. Today He is in heaven and not walking on this earth. However, in the millennium, He will be on earth, and all will have full intelligence, with full recall and will be taught. The Heavenly Father honors all those with grace, that have accepted His Son by faith through repentance without Christ's physical presence here on earth, if you believed in His Word.

To those who are not under grace in the Millennium, their salvation will be only through and by their works. For faith doesn't exist to them. There will be no ignorance, physical handicap, for you will see, know, and experience Our Lord first hand.

Question do you believe the soul can die ?
 

Goldwing

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As I keep saying (with scripture) the dead are already risen .
No speculations on that .

Nobody has died yet(NOBODY) what one should worry about is the 2nd death, which is the death of the soul.
n2thelight, your post is conflicting. In your first sentence you state,"the dead are already risen."

In your last sentence you state,"Nobody has died yet(NOBODY)".

Please clarify.
 
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