Who or what causes physical evil in the world?

[OzSpen]

This has been the problem that has troubled theologians and preachers down through the centuries.

Welcome to the omnisapient being. A sapient being is one who is a 'genius, intelligent, wise' (Macmillan Dictionary 2019. s.v. sapient).

The One who is omnipotent is all-powerful. Therefore, the sovereign God who is all-wise is the One who has omnisapience.

For God to be sovereign, he needs to have all-power, be all-knowing, and be the God of all-wisdom. As One with these attributes, God can control every event that was future to us but eternally present to Him.

As the all-wise God, He can control all future events, including free actions. Nothing pops up as a surprise to God. The Indian Ocean tsunami of 2004 was no surprise to him; neither did 9-11. What about the current, traumatic bush fires we are experiencing in Australia? They are no surprise to the all-wise God.

The fire burning in the Stirling Range National Park has already burnt through more than 16,000 hectares of scrub. (9NEWS)

Who causes these fires, droughts, earthquakes and famines around the world, as well as floods and tornadoes? Let's turn to the Scriptures and apologetics for some answers.

Oz

 

[jasonc]

Cursed be the ground for your sake?

 

[JLB]

For God to be sovereign,

What is it that you believe “sovereign” means?

The secular word Sovereign may not mean what the biblical word means.


that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
1 Timothy 6:14-15

He is the King of kings and Lord of lords, the only Sovereign ruler.

I would like to understand what your understanding of Sovereign means.


We can get into trouble when we apply a word or term to God and place our own understanding of how certain conditions must be met for God to be what we think He should be, and He must operate within the boundaries of our finite understanding, in order to be defined in a way we can comprehend.


To me this is how the world, using their carnal mind, tries to comprehend God to decide whether or not He exists or whether He meets their standard of being God, and whether or not they will serve Him.




JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

God is Alpha and Omega and knows everything from the beginning to that of the destruction of heaven and earth in the end of days caused by the evil desires of man who chose not to obey God's commands and stature. God's word tells of the destruction of those who walk in disobedience who seek immortality through their relentless wicked deeds.

Here is the solution to the problem of evil:

2 Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

 

[OzSpen]

Cursed be the ground for your sake?​

Jason,

What does Gen 3:17 say in context?

17And to the man he said,​

“Since you listened to your wife and ate from the tree​

whose fruit I commanded you not to eat,​

the ground is cursed because of you.​

All your life you will struggle to scratch a living from it.​

​

18It will grow thorns and thistles for you,​

though you will eat of its grains.​

​

19By the sweat of your brow​

will you have food to eat​

until you return to the ground​

from which you were made.​

For you were made from dust,​

and to dust you will return.”​

​

I don't read anything here that states that 'the ground is cursed because of you' refers to earthquakes, tornadoes, floods and drought.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

What is it that you believe “sovereign” means?

The secular word Sovereign may not mean what the biblical word means.

that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
1 Timothy 6:14-15

He is the King of kings and Lord of lords, the only Sovereign ruler.

I would like to understand what your understanding of Sovereign means.

We can get into trouble when we apply a word or term to God and place our own understanding of how certain conditions must be met for God to be what we think He should be, and He must operate within the boundaries of our finite understanding, in order to be defined in a way we can comprehend.

To me this is how the world, using their carnal mind, tries to comprehend God to decide whether or not He exists or whether He meets their standard of being God, and whether or not they will serve Him.

JLB

JLB,

The sovereign Lord God is nothing like British Queen Elizabeth II, sovereign over Australia. This monarch holds the highest position in function of issuing executive orders. Each country operates independently under the Westminster system of parliamentary democracy with the call to responsible government. Only in rare circumstances does she step in to a country, on the recommendation of the Crown ministers, to take action.

That happened in 1975 when she sacked Australian Prime Minister Gough Whitlam and his Labor government, on the recommendation of Governor-General Sir John Kerr. It was the climax of an Australian constitutional crisis.

This looks nothing like God's sovereignty in action.

God's sovereignty involves these attributes. He is all-powerful (Rev 19:6), all-knowing (Ps 139:1-6), and all-wise (1 Tim 1:17). Because of these attributes, he completely controls every future event (including free choices).

His sovereignty means he knows that will happen in the future and sovereignly controls it for the best outcome for human beings. No actions in the past, present or future will take him by surprise. This world is heading towards his sovereign conclusion.

What is your understanding of God's sovereignty?

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

This has been the problem that has troubled theologians and preachers down through the centuries.

Welcome to the omnisapient being. A sapient being is one who is a 'genius, intelligent, wise' (Macmillan Dictionary 2019. s.v. sapient).

The One who is omnipotent is all-powerful. Therefore, the sovereign God who is all-wise is the One who has omnisapience.

For God to be sovereign, he needs to have all-power, be all-knowing, and be the God of all-wisdom. As One with these attributes, God can control every event that was future to us but eternally present to Him.

As the all-wise God, He can control all future events, including free actions. Nothing pops up as a surprise to God. The Indian Ocean tsunami of 2004 was no surprise to him; neither did 9-11. What about the current, traumatic bush fires we are experiencing in Australia? They are no surprise to the all-wise God.

The fire burning in the Stirling Range National Park has already burnt through more than 16,000 hectares of scrub. (9NEWS)

Who causes these fires, droughts, earthquakes and famines around the world, as well as floods and tornadoes? Let's turn to the Scriptures and apologetics for some answers.

Oz

Hi Oz...
It seems to me the answer to your O.P. is very easy.

When Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit in Genesis, sin entered into the world.

They lived in a perfect world and were friends with their creator, God.

After Eve was deceived and Adam complied with her desire to eat the fruit,,,man broke his relationship with God, with himself, with others, and with nature.

Sin also entered nature, as is shown in
Romans 8:20-22
20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.

Just as man is now disordered in his nature...
so nature is also disordered and is no longer a friend of man but something to be reckoned with. Adam would now have to work to toil and eat from his land...and sometimes it would yield nothing.

Adam and Eve caused ALL their relationships to be broken,,even the one with nature.

 

[OzSpen]

Hi Oz...
It seems to me the answer to your O.P. is very easy.

When Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit in Genesis, sin entered into the world.

They lived in a perfect world and were friends with their creator, God.

After Eve was deceived and Adam complied with her desire to eat the fruit,,,man broke his relationship with God, with himself, with others, and with nature.

Sin also entered nature, as is shown in
Romans 8:20-22
20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.

Just as man is now disordered in his nature...
so nature is also disordered and is no longer a friend of man but something to be reckoned with. Adam would now have to work to toil and eat from his land...and sometimes it would yield nothing.

Adam and Eve caused ALL their relationships to be broken,,even the one with nature.

wondering,

Are you convinced biblically that that causes Australia's current, horrendous bush fires, the 2004 tsunami, tornadoes and floods like that in Townsville, Qld earlier in 2019?



Oz

 

[atpollard]

That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other, The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

[Isaiah 45:6-7 NASB]

So He said, "Go forth and stand on the mountain before the LORD." And behold, the LORD was passing by! And a great and strong wind was rending the mountains and breaking in pieces the rocks before the LORD; [but] the LORD [was] not in the wind. And after the wind an earthquake, [but] the LORD [was] not in the earthquake. After the earthquake a fire, [but] the LORD [was] not in the fire; and after the fire a sound of a gentle blowing.

[1Ki 19:11-12 NASB]

From the LORD of hosts you will be punished with thunder and earthquake and loud noise, [With] whirlwind and tempest and the flame of a consuming fire.

[Isa 29:6 NASB]

"In My zeal and in My blazing wrath I declare [that] on that day there will surely be a great earthquake in the land of Israel.

[Eze 38:19 NASB]

And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell; seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

[Rev 11:13 NASB]

 

[OzSpen]

[Isaiah 45:6-7 NASB]

[1Ki 19:11-12 NASB]

[Isa 29:6 NASB]

[Eze 38:19 NASB]

[Rev 11:13 NASB]

atp,

So, do you consider the 2004 tsunami in the Indian ocean was caused by the Lord?

Is the current Australian drought all the Lord's doing and not to do with climate change?

Should all tornadoes, earthquakes, cyclones, typhoons and hurricanes be blamed on the Lord?

Oz

 

[daninthelionsden]

Good questions. On the plus side, God can heal a sick person.....in another instance a doctor can heal.......was God responsible for both?
On the down side, lightning can cause a forest fire.....did God do that...in another instance a person can cause a forest fire. Did God cause them to do that? An earthquake can be caused by a plate shift ,but then again an earthquake can be caused by too much oil drilling and fracking. ..........??????

 

[jasonc]

Jason,

What does Gen 3:17 say in context?

17And to the man he said,​

“Since you listened to your wife and ate from the tree​

whose fruit I commanded you not to eat,​

the ground is cursed because of you.​

All your life you will struggle to scratch a living from it.​

​

18It will grow thorns and thistles for you,​

though you will eat of its grains.​

​

19By the sweat of your brow​

will you have food to eat​

until you return to the ground​

from which you were made.​

For you were made from dust,​

and to dust you will return.”​

​

I don't read anything here that states that 'the ground is cursed because of you' refers to earthquakes, tornadoes, floods and drought.

Oz

Good soil comes from,volcanoes .that ash makes some fine soil,with tornadoes ,with out those clouds ,no,rain.most rain my,state gets is from thunderstorms

So I think that in paradise there wasn't volcanoes and those as they caused death.
Do you,really think,Adam or even if they didn't sin would have to contend with those ?that there was sorrow ?

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

Are you convinced biblically that that causes Australia's current, horrendous bush fires, the 2004 tsunami, tornadoes and floods like that in Townsville, Qld earlier in 2019?

View attachment 9263

Oz

Absolutely.
I posted Romans 8 and it is believed by all theologians that I know of.

I can see no other reason.
Can you?

 

[GodsGrace]

Good questions. On the plus side, God can heal a sick person.....in another instance a doctor can heal.......was God responsible for both?
On the down side, lightning can cause a forest fire.....did God do that...in another instance a person can cause a forest fire. Did God cause them to do that? An earthquake can be caused by a plate shift ,but then again an earthquake can be caused by too much oil drilling and fracking. ..........??????

 

[GodsGrace]

atp,

So, do you consider the 2004 tsunami in the Indian ocean was caused by the Lord?

Is the current Australian drought all the Lord's doing and not to do with climate change?

Should all tornadoes, earthquakes, cyclones, typhoons and hurricanes be blamed on the Lord?

Oz

Post no. 10 is interesting because the reformed to believe that since God is sovereign He CAUSES all to happen.

We can all understand that God ALLOWS things to happen, but to blame Him for it is to attribute to God EVIL...which is not a component of the God of the bible.

The bible states that God is LOVING, MERCIFUL, JUST.

A loving God will not cause an earthquake,,,but He will allow it to happen because it's imbedded in the laws of nature, which I covered in post. no. 7 regarding sin affecting the entire world and not only man.

So what is the answer to this?
Perhaps the answer is that once God revealed Himself to this population, they then went ahead and attributed every action to HIM. This will help to understand the entire O.T. much better. We are dealing with persons of 4,000 years ago, rather primitive in scientific knowledge and gave to God the responsibility for all.

I do, however, know that the bible was very scientific in many ways and am not excluding this fact.

 

[JLB]

The sovereign Lord God is nothing like British Queen Elizabeth II, sovereign over Australia. This monarch holds the highest position in function of issuing executive orders. Each country operates independently under the Westminster system of parliamentary democracy with the call to responsible government. Only in rare circumstances does she step in to a country, on the recommendation of the Crown ministers, to take action.

That happened in 1975 when she sacked Australian Prime Minister Gough Whitlam and his Labor government, on the recommendation of Governor-General Sir John Kerr. It was the climax of an Australian constitutional crisis.

This looks nothing like God's sovereignty in action.

Agreed.

 

[JLB]

God's sovereignty involves these attributes. He is all-powerful (Rev 19:6),

God certainly is all powerful; Omnipotent.

This isn’t necessarily attributed to Him being Sovereign or a definition of Sovereign.

I would say that the word “reigns” would correlate to Sovereignty, as much as Omnipotent.

We also must balance our understanding of all powerful, Omnipotent, and freewill within the context of the scripture being used in Revelation 19:6.


And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns! Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
Revelation 19:6-8

• Within the omnipotence and sovereignty of God reigning we see that “the bride has made herself ready”.

Much could be said about the brilliance and magnitude of God’s manifold wisdom to allow circumstances and events to align with the freewill of the bride, to bring about His will of the bride
“making herself ready”.


To me, this is far more intriguing than to say, God made this or that come about because He is all powerful and Sovereign.


Then to see what it is that caused her to make herself ready, without forcing her to make herself ready as a bride who willingly wants to be prepared for her Husband, because she has laid down her life, choosing to suffer and die during the tribulation rather than be unfaithful to her beloved.


Sovereign and Omnipotent, must also be seen in the light of words like love and wisdom, because from what I see God has a strict timing table in bringing about His will, yet is patient in allowing His will to come to pass, within the confines of man’s ability to have a choice to embrace it.




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

God certainly is all powerful; Omnipotent.

This isn’t necessarily attributed to Him being Sovereign or a definition of Sovereign.

I would say that the word “reigns” would correlate to Sovereignty, as much as Omnipotent.

We also must balance our understanding of all powerful, Omnipotent, and freewill within the context of the scripture being used in Revelation 19:6.


And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns! Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
Revelation 19:6-8

• Within the omnipotence and sovereignty of God reigning we see that “the bride has made herself ready”.

Much could be said about the brilliance and magnitude of God’s manifold wisdom to allow circumstances and events to align with the freewill of the bride, to bring about His will of the bride
“making herself ready”.


To me, this is far more intriguing than to say, God made this or that come about because He is all powerful and Sovereign.


Then to see what it is that caused her to make herself ready, without forcing her to make herself ready as a bride who willingly wants to be prepared for her Husband, because she has laid down her life, choosing to suffer and die during the tribulation rather than be unfaithful to her beloved.


Sovereign and Omnipotent, must also be seen in the light of words like love and wisdom, because from what I see God has a strict timing table in bringing about His will, yet is patient in allowing His will to come to pass, within the confines of man’s ability to have a choice to embrace it.




JLB

J,,,the above sounds almost reformed.

For instance when you say that God CAUSES the bride to become ready but willingly...

Doesn't this sound like compatible free will to you?

 

[JLB]

For instance when you say that God CAUSES the bride to become ready but willingly...

?

I don’t believe I said that.

Much could be said about the brilliance and magnitude of God’s manifold wisdom to allow circumstances and events to align with the freewill of the bride, to bring about His will of the bride
“making herself ready”.

The bride “made herself ready”.


She chose to make herself ready.







JLB

 

[daninthelionsden]

The vast amount of faith and trust required to fully immerse ourselves in Romans 8:28 is both a daunting impossibility and childishly simple. We have no other viable alternative than to throw ourselves at His feet and "Yes Lord" followed by "Your will be done" and "Please have mercy as You do this"