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Who were the Nephilim & Giants in the OT?

Deborah13

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The topic of this thread began in a discussion in another thread but this topic was off topic for that thread's OP.
http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/angels-do-not-have-sex.53738/page-16

To begin with I am going to make several posts that are quotes of My own posts in that thread. I will ask the other people that were taking part in this discussion to comment in this thread.

First can we from other scriptures besides Genesis 6 learn anything about the Nephilim?
Can these scriptures show us what may or may not be true about the Nephilim?
What does scripture say about their lineage?
What does scripture say about their physical attributes?
What does scripture say about other attributes that they may have had?

Second who were the other giants mentioned in the OT scriptures?
Were they Nephilim?
What does scripture say about these different ones mentioned such as Goliath and Og?
What does scripture say about their lineage?
What does scripture say about their physical attributes?
What does scripture say about other attributes that they may have had?
 

Deborah13

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So my first relevant post in the other thread was post # 315.
"So let's look at the OTHER scripture that mentions Nephilim."

Post # 323 -
KJV
Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
H5303 -
nephı̂yl nephil
nef-eel', nef-eel'
From H5307; properly, a feller, that is, a bully or tyrant: - giant.
YLT
Gen 6:4 The fallen ones were in the earth in those days, and even afterwards when sons of God come in unto daughters of men, and they have borne to them--they are the heroes, who, from of old, are the men of name.

KJV
Num 13:33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.
H5303 -
nephı̂yl nephil
nef-eel', nef-eel'
From H5307; properly, a feller, that is, a bully or tyrant: - giant.
YLT
Num 13:33 and there we saw the Nephilim, sons of Anak, of the Nephilim; and we are in our own eyes as grasshoppers; and so we were in their eyes.'

So first we have established that it is the exact same word, H5303 - nephil, used in both Gen.6:4 and in Num. 13:33.

Do you agree?
 

Deborah13

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Post # 354
So from those two verses can we then say that the Nephilim were the sons of "the sons of God" per Genesis 6 AND the Nephilim were the sons of Anak per Numbers 13 ?

If so, then who was Anak? Doing a word search I found these scriptures referring to Anak.
Numbers 13:22, 28, 33 Deut 9:2 Joshua 15:13,14 11:22 and 21:11 Judges 1:20 in the KJV and the NASB

Doing another search for 'Anakim' the tribe of the Anaks I found these scriptures again in both the KJV and the NASB.
Deut. 1:28, 2:10,11,21

Num 13:22 And they ascended by the south, and came unto Hebron; where Ahiman, Sheshai, and Talmai, the children of Anak, were. (Now Hebron was built seven years before Zoan in Egypt.)
Jdg 1:10 And Judah went against the Canaanites that dwelt in Hebron: (now the name of Hebron before was Kirjatharba:) and they slew Sheshai, and Ahiman, and Talmai.
Jos 11:22 There was none of the Anakims left in the land of the children of Israel: only in Gaza, in Gath, and in Ashdod, there remained.

Num 13:28 only, surely the people which is dwelling in the land is strong; and the cities are fenced, very great; and also children of Anak we have seen there.
Num 13:29 Amalek is dwelling in the land of the south, and the Hittite, and the Jebusite, and the Amorite is dwelling in the hill country, and the Canaanite is dwelling by the sea, and by the side of the Jordan.'
Num 13:32 and they bring out an evil account of the land which they have spied unto the sons of Israel, saying, `The land into which we passed over to spy it, is a land eating up its inhabitants; and all the people whom we saw in its midst are men of stature;
Num 13:33 and there we saw the Nephilim, sons of Anak, of the Nephilim; and we are in our own eyes as grasshoppers; and so we were in their eyes.'
stature
H4060 -
middâh
mid-daw'
Feminine of H4055; properly extension, that is, height or breadth; also a measure (including its standard); hence a portion (as measured) or a vestment; specifically tribute (as measured): - garment, measure (-ing, meteyard, piece, size, (great) stature, tribute, wide.

So from these scriptures I think it is clear that all the different tribes were of great size not just the Anak. We know that Og was an Amorite and Goliath was a Philistine.


Jos 15:13 And unto Caleb the son of Jephunneh he gave a part among the children of Judah, according to the commandment of the LORD to Joshua, even the city of Arba the father of Anak, which city is Hebron.
Jos 14:15 And the name of Hebron before was Kirjatharba; which Arba was a great man among the Anakims. And the land had rest from war.

Arba was the father of Anak. Who was Arba? This is it. There is no further information that I can find about the Anakims, that were identified as the Nephilim in Numbers 13.

So what about identifying the Nephilim as people with six fingers?
I can't find this in scripture anywhere pertaining to the Nephilim. Does anyone have scripture that says the Nephilim had these?
 

Deborah13

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Post # 360
2Sa 21:19 And there was again a battle in Gob with the Philistines, where Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.
2Sa 21:20 And there was yet a battle in Gath, where was a man of great stature, that had on every hand six fingers, and on every foot six toes, four and twenty in number; and he also was born to the giant.
2Sa 21:21 And when he defied Israel, Jonathan the son of Shimea the brother of David slew him.
2Sa 21:22 These four were born to the giant in Gath, and fell by the hand of David, and by the hand of his servants.
1Ch_20:5 And there was war again with the Philistines; and Elhanan the son of Jair slew Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, whose spear staff was like a weaver's beam.

What I see here is that there was "a man" singular who had six fingers. This man is identified as being the son of a giant in Gath.
"These four were born to the giant in Gath". All were slain but only one is identified as having six fingers, correct?
H7498 - giant in these verses
Probably the same as H7497; giant; Rapha or Raphah, the name of two Israelites: - Rapha.
H7497
râphâ' râphâh
raw-faw', raw-faw'
From H7495 in the sense of invigorating; a giant: - giant, Rapha, Rephaim (-s). See also H1051.
1. giants, Rephaim
2. a tribe of giants

So the giants in these verses are not referred to, directly at least, the Nephilim but are spoken of as being Rephaim, correct?

So can we agree that there is one man mentioned with six fingers?
And can we agree that the 'giants' spoke of here are the Rephaim?

EDIT I noticed that the scripture says 'the giant' not 'a giant'
 

Edward

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Awesome sister! This is a good idea. You have shown that you are willing to learn or at least consider the subject in an open minded way so this should be good. You ask good questions.

Do you wish this thread to stick straightly to canonized scripture, or would references to extra-biblical sources be ok?
I refer to the books of Jasher and Enoch, as well as historical writings from philosophers and scholars and so forth (Josephus & Philo.)
 

Deborah13

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Awesome sister! This is a good idea. You have shown that you are willing to learn or at least consider the subject in an open minded way so this should be good. You ask good questions.

Do you wish this thread to stick straightly to canonized scripture, or would references to extra-biblical sources be ok?
I refer to the books of Jasher and Enoch, as well as historical writings from philosophers and scholars and so forth (Josephus & Philo.)

You know Edward until we have exhausted all possible scriptures from the Bible itself I don't want to bring in other info. from other sources. It just gets too cluttered and hard to sort out. BUT once we have done that I would be open to looking at other sources After we can all agree that there is nothing left to look at.
If we just look at the Nephilim scriptures first then others that may or may not be referring to them then we can always go back and quote an older post and address that post with info from other sources.
I really don't think it will take that long to cover the scriptures in the Bible.

How does that sound to you?
 

Edward

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You know Edward until we have exhausted all possible scriptures from the Bible itself I don't want to bring in other info. from other sources. It just gets too cluttered and hard to sort out. BUT once we have done that I would be open to looking at other sources After we can all agree that there is nothing left to look at.
If we just look at the Nephilim scriptures first then others that may or may not be referring to them then we can always go back and quote an older post and address that post with info from other sources.
I really don't think it will take that long to cover the scriptures in the Bible.

How does that sound to you?

That sounds great to me sister. I only mention that because you are very open minded and at times, extra-biblical information can shed a little light on time periods, what the public thought, small added details and so forth. Nevertheless, canonized scripture is what I will stick to (never a bad idea!) as you wish.

I may not actually begin posting back until later though, I have a couple things up in the air that I have to prepare for. :)
 

JLB

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You know Edward until we have exhausted all possible scriptures from the Bible itself I don't want to bring in other info. from other sources. It just gets too cluttered and hard to sort out. BUT once we have done that I would be open to looking at other sources After we can all agree that there is nothing left to look at.
If we just look at the Nephilim scriptures first then others that may or may not be referring to them then we can always go back and quote an older post and address that post with info from other sources.
I really don't think it will take that long to cover the scriptures in the Bible.

How does that sound to you?

A look at the scriptures that contain the word Giants [Nephilim].

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. Genesis 6:4

There were giants in the earth when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them...

There were giants when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men...


and again -


33 There we saw the giants (the descendants of Anak came from the giants); and we were like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight." Numbers 13:33 NKJV

33 and there we saw the Nephilim, sons of Anak, of the Nephilim; and we are in our own eyes as grasshoppers; and so we were in their eyes.' Numbers 13:33 YLT

The question is: Can Nephilim reproduce?

We are taught how Nephilim came about.

This verse seems to indicate that the sons of Anak came from Nephilim.

Whether by natural birth or some other way.

The Nephilim were on the earth before the flood, and appeared after the flood.

Nephilim themselves were produced when the sons of God had relations with the daughters of men.


JLB
 

Edward

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Does the word giant always translate to Nephilim ?

It does not. It translates differently in Greek and hebrew. I don't have the details in front of me but from memory I can tell you that in one def it says "earth born" another is "fallen" IIRC, which notably enough, we should realize that according to scripture, Satan and his angels were "cast down" and are not described as fallen. People loosely desribe them as fallen and in a sense it is so, but technically there's a difference. The Nephilim did happen to be giants, but that's not what the word means. I found this interesting, myself. I'll try to dig all this info our here in a day or so and post it since it would be very pertinent to the thread. Good question!
 

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A look at the scriptures that contain the word Giants [Nephilim].

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. Genesis 6:4

There were giants in the earth when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them...
There were giants when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men...

and again -


33 There we saw the giants (the descendants of Anak came from the giants); and we were like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight." Numbers 13:33 NKJV

33 and there we saw the Nephilim, sons of Anak, of the Nephilim; and we are in our own eyes as grasshoppers; and so we were in their eyes.' Numbers 13:33 YLT

The question is: Can Nephilim reproduce?

This is an interesting question that scripture does not clearly answer. Maybe we will find out?

We are taught how Nephilim came about.

This verse seems to indicate that the sons of Anak came from Nephilim.

Whether by natural birth or some other way.

I read it as Anak was of the Nephilim.

The Nephilim were on the earth before the flood, and appeared after the flood.

yes

Nephilim themselves were produced when the sons of God had relations with the daughters of men.


JLB[/quote]

YLT
Num 13:33 and there we saw the Nephilim, sons of Anak, of the Nephilim; and we are in our own eyes as grasshoppers; and so we were in their eyes.'

They said they saw the Nephilim?
The Nephilim they saw were sons of Anak?
Anak was of the Nephilim?


YLT
Gen 6:4 The fallen ones [Nephilim] were in the earth in those days, and even afterwards when sons of God come in unto daughters of men, and they have borne to them--they are the heroes, who, from of old, are the men of name.

Yes - the Nephilim were the offspring of the sons of God and the daughters of men.
Yes - the Nephilim, are the heroes, who from of old are the men of name.
 

Deborah13

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Post #354 old thread and post #3 this thread

Jos 15:13 And unto Caleb the son of Jephunneh he gave a part among the children of Judah, according to the commandment of the LORD to Joshua, even the city of Arba the father of Anak, which city is Hebron.
Jos 14:15 And the name of Hebron before was Kirjatharba; which Arba was a great man among the Anakims. And the land had rest from war.

Arba was the father of Anak?
Arba had a city in Hebron?
Arba was a great man among the Anakims. He kept peace in their land.?
Arba was a Nephilim?
Arba can be identified as one of the great men of old?

Gen_13:18 Then Abram removed his tent, and came and dwelt in the plain of Mamre, which is in Hebron, and built there an altar unto the LORD.
Gen 23:2 and Sarah dieth in Kirjath-Arba, which is Hebron, in the land of Caanan, and Abraham goeth in to mourn for Sarah, and to bewail her.

Abram and Sarai lived in Kirjath-Arba, which is Hebron?
And Sarah died there?
We can conclude that Abraham and Sarah lived many years in this same land?

Gen 14:13 And one who is escaping cometh and declareth to Abram the Hebrew, and he is dwelling among the oaks of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner, and they are Abram's allies.

Abram had allies that were Amorites?

I included this here even though it may not be directly connected to the Nephilim but someone had mentioned that maybe all the tribes that had large people in them were from the Nephilim.
This would have included the Amorites. At least some of these were allies of Abram's.
 
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Deborah13

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I missed a questions I should have included in post #12.

They said they saw Nephilim and that the Nephilim they saw were the sons of Anak, who was of the Nephilim.
So Nephilim can have children?
 

JLB

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I missed a questions I should have included in post #12.

They said they saw Nephilim and that the Nephilim they saw were the sons of Anak, who was of the Nephilim.
So Nephilim can have children?


33 There we saw the giants (the descendants of Anak came from the giants); and we were like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight." Numbers 13:33 NKJV

I would be careful about building a doctrine from a phrase that was in parenthesis.

If you take out what the translators added in parenthesis you have -

There we saw the giants; and we were like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight." Numbers 13:33 NKJV

JLB
 

Deborah13

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33 There we saw the giants (the descendants of Anak came from the giants); and we were like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight." Numbers 13:33 NKJV

I would be careful about building a doctrine from a phrase that was in parenthesis.

If you take out what the translators added in parenthesis you have -

There we saw the giants; and we were like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight." Numbers 13:33 NKJV

JLB

This is from the transliteration from the Hebrew.
It says the sons of Anak of the Nephilim
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/num13.pdf

What does the NKJV give for a reason that they put it in parenthesis?

I don't build doctrine I just try to sort things out. Especially things in the OT I always learn a bunch. When I'm studying a particular topic things jump out that I didn't really think about before or didn't have a reference point to tie them to.
 

Michael74

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And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Jude 1:6 KJV
 

Michael74

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For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 2 Peter 2:4 KJV
 

Michael74

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The phrase "the sons of God" (Hebrew, בְּנֵי הָֽאֱלֹהִים) is only used in Genesis 6, and in Job 1:6 plus Job 2:1. In Job, the phrase explicitly refers to angels.

Some wonder if this means the Genesis Nephilim are human/angel hybrids.
 

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From an old thread:

Arba was a great man, possibly a contemporary of Abram, though I suspect a predecessor, who had not 'fallen' into depravity as his three 'nephilim' descendants had 400+yrs later.

I'm also considering another interpretation where Arba is not just one individual man.

---

Basically my idea is that because "arba" means fourth, and can also mean four, "Arba" is not one man, but four great men whose association set apart and gave name to the city Kirjath-arba(city of Arba)(city of Four), which later became Hebron(association).

The four men in association are the Hebrew Abram, and the Amorite brothers Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre. Their alliance kept the land from war until provoked by the war of four kings against five kings, at which point Abram, in league with the three Amorites, rose to pursue and defeat Chedorlaomer. Melchizedek, king of Salem, thought enough of their victory to come out to congratulate them. Abram refused tribute from Sodom, but allowed His colleagues to accept it, which probably contributed to the Amorites eventual downfall.

While Abrams descendant Israel left for Egypt to escape famine, the Amorite descendants stayed to fill their inequity. As the nation of Israel returned from captivity they found the descendants (Sheshai, Ahiman, Talmai) of the old allies of Abram (Mamre, Eshcol, Aner) intimidating in power, but fallen into depravity. Therefore the now fallen Amorites(nephilim) were to be judged by God through the Israelites for their transgressions.​
 
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