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WHY CALVINISM IS UNBIBLICAL - TOTAL DEPRAVITY

wondering

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TOTAL DEPRAVITY -

This calvinist teaching states that man is so depraved that he is dead in his sins.
He is so wicked in his heart that he is unable to raise up on his own to see the light of God.
For this reason, they teach, God must first regenerate a person, and then they become saved and are able to
have faith in God.

These verses are used: I'll be using both the NASB and The Living Bible


FAITH COMES BEFORE SALVATION AS TAUGHT IN THE N.T.

Ephesians 2:1 NASB
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

TLB
1Once you were under God’s curse, doomed forever for your sins.



1 Corinthians 2:14 NASB
14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

TLB
14 But the man who isn’t a Christian can’t understand and can’t accept these thoughts from God, which the Holy Spirit teaches us. They sound foolish to him because only those who have the Holy Spirit within them can understand what the Holy Spirit means. Others just can’t take it in.



So, what they teach is that we are dead, God makes us alive and regenerates us and then we become saved.

This is the opposite of what Christians have believed throughout the ages and which every denomination teaches.
That is: That we believe God's revelation to us....we believe the gospel...we have faith in God... THEN God saves us by His grace.
Ephesians 2:8-9 NASB
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

TLB
8 Because of his kindness, you have been saved through trusting Christ. And even trusting is not of yourselves;[a] it too is a gift from God.
9 Salvation is not a reward for the good we have done, so none of us can take any credit for it.


It is clear from the above that we have faith first...
and then we are saved by the Grace of God, through the gift of salvation....
the gift spoken of is salvation.
Salvation is a gift and not a work, so that no one may boast.


Romans 5:1 NASB
1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

TLB

So now, since we have been made right in God’s sight by faith in his promises, we can have real peace with him because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us.

We have been justified by faith.
We have faith first....
and then we are justified. (made right with God)
It is through our faith that we are justified...not the other way around.
We get salvation by having faith.


Acts 16:31 NASB
31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,

TLB
They replied, “Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved,,,



Paul told the jailer that he was to believe in the Lord
and he would be saved.
The belief comes first....
The salvation comes second.


DEATH AS IT IS TAUGHT IN THE N.T.

There are 2 types of death in the bible.
Physical death
Spiritual death - Separation from God

Death is spoken of in the N.T. as separation from God.
Adam was told that if he ate the fruit, he would surely die.
He did not die physically.
He died spiritually - he became separated from God.
BUT, Adam could still hear God...he was not so "dead" that he could not hear God.

Genesis 3:9-10 NASB
9Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?”
10He said, “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.”

TLB

9 The Lord God called to Adam, “Why are you hiding?”
10 And Adam replied, “I heard you coming and didn’t want you to see me naked. So I hid.”


Genesis 2:17 NASB
17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

TLB
for its fruit will open your eyes to make you aware of right and wrong, good and bad. If you eat its fruit, you will be doomed to die.”



When we were dead in our sins it means that we were separated from God.
It does not mean that it's not possible for us to even know about God...
It does not mean that we cannot think, hear, see or become aware of God.
Adam could hear God...he could hide from God...he was NOT totally depraved......he was only separated from God.

Scripture tells us that God reveals Himself to mankind,,,beginning with Abraham in the O.T.
and even before that because God is visible in creation, Romans 1:19-20...everyone can know God; man will have no excuse when he
appears before God...man will not be able to say that God did not reveal Himself to the very creatures He created.
Why would God create man kind in HIS IMAGE....and then not reveal Himself to His creatures?
God so loved the world and surely He wants the world to know about Himself, the creator.
John 3:16

As Genesis teaches through Adam, even in our sinful condition:
we can still hear God even in a sinful state,
we can still hide from Him
we can still be afraid of Him
we can still respond to Him

Even though man is dead in sin he can still know about God and is still able to reply to God.

MAN IS NOT TOTALLY DEPRAVED.

He is not so depraved that he is unable to respond to God.
 
Last edited:

jasonc

Member
Christian
Yes
Messages
42,002
Joined
Mar 11, 2014
TOTAL DEPRAVITY -

This calvinist teaching states that man is so depraved that he is dead in his sins.
He is so wicked in his heart that he is unable to raise up on his own to see the light of God.
For this reason, they teach, God must first regenerate a person, and then they become saved and are able to
have faith in God.

These verses are used: I'll be using both the NASB and The Living Bible


FAITH COMES BEFORE SALVATION AS TAUGHT IN THE N.T.

Ephesians 2:1 NASB
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

TLB
1Once you were under God’s curse, doomed forever for your sins.



1 Corinthians 2:14 NASB
14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

TLB
14 But the man who isn’t a Christian can’t understand and can’t accept these thoughts from God, which the Holy Spirit teaches us. They sound foolish to him because only those who have the Holy Spirit within them can understand what the Holy Spirit means. Others just can’t take it in.



So, what they teach is that we are dead, God makes us alive and regenerates us and then we become saved.

This is the opposite of what Christians have believed throughout the ages and which every denomination teaches.
That is: That we believe God's revelation to us....we believe the gospel...we have faith in God... THEN God saves us by His grace.
Ephesians 2:8-9 NASB
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

TLB
8 Because of his kindness, you have been saved through trusting Christ. And even trusting is not of yourselves;[a] it too is a gift from God.
9 Salvation is not a reward for the good we have done, so none of us can take any credit for it.


It is clear from the above that we have faith first...
and then we are saved by the Grace of God, through the gift of salvation....
the gift spoken of is salvation.
Salvation is a gift and not a work, so that no one may boast.


Romans 5:1 NASB
1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

TLB

So now, since we have been made right in God’s sight by faith in his promises, we can have real peace with him because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us.

We have been justified by faith.
We have faith first....
and then we are justified. (made right with God)
It is through our faith that we are justified...not the other way around.
We get salvation by having faith.


Acts 16:31 NASB
31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,

TLB
They replied, “Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved,,,



Paul told the jailer that he was to believe in the Lord
and he would be saved.
The belief comes first....
The salvation comes second.


DEATH AS IT IS TAUGHT IN THE N.T.

There are 2 types of death in the bible.
Physical death
Spiritual death - Separation from God

Death is spoken of in the N.T. as separation from God.
Adam was told that if he ate the fruit, he would surely die.
He did not die physically.
He died spiritually - he became separated from God.
BUT, Adam could still hear God...he was not so "dead" that he could not hear God.

Genesis 3:9-10 NASB
9Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?”
10He said, “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.”

TLB

9 The Lord God called to Adam, “Why are you hiding?”
10 And Adam replied, “I heard you coming and didn’t want you to see me naked. So I hid.”


Genesis 2:17 NASB
17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

TLB
for its fruit will open your eyes to make you aware of right and wrong, good and bad. If you eat its fruit, you will be doomed to die.”



When we were dead in our sins it means that we were separated from God.
It does not mean that it's not possible for us to even know about God...
It does not mean that we cannot think, hear, see or become aware of God.
Adam could hear God...he could hide from God...he was NOT totally depraved......he was only separated from God.

Scripture tells us that God reveals Himself to mankind,,,beginning with Abraham in the O.T.
and even before that because God is visible in creation, Romans 1:19-20...everyone can know God; man will have no excuse when he
appears before God...man will not be able to say that God did not reveal Himself to the very creatures He created.
Why would God create man kind in HIS IMAGE....and then not reveal Himself to His creatures?
God so loved the world and surely He wants the world to know about Himself, the creator.
John 3:16

As Genesis teaches through Adam, even in our sinful condition:
we can still hear God even in a sinful state,
we can still hide from Him
we can still be afraid of Him
we can still respond to Him

Even though man is dead in sin he can still know about God and is still able to reply to God.

MAN IS NOT TOTALLY DEPRAVED.

He is not so depraved that he is unable to respond to God.
you would have a case but Jacobus arninist believed and taught total depravity

you assume we on our own without God caring would be good on our owm ,that we want to to renew our mind .

cursed is the ground for your sake .

if God didn't create the consequences of sin ,we wouldn't even desire to be good .

you can't ignore that arminists would agree they don't .i also seen anarchy ,I don't believe men without laws do good or government always is good .

I could post the local abortion clinic stories of deathscorts were the lies of how humane abortion is pushed ,people mocking pro life .
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Member
From
America’s Sparta
Gender
Male
Messages
29,813
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
For this reason, they teach, God must first regenerate a person, and then they become saved and are able to
have faith in God.

That would be considered “another Gospel” since being saved and regenerated are the same; being born again



But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:4-7



This scripture plainly teaches us that being regenerated, and being saved is the same thing and occurs through the Gospel of Jesus Christ not some time before.



JLB
 

PeterJens

God bless you
Member
From
London
Gender
Male
Messages
764
Joined
May 18, 2017
TOTAL DEPRAVITY -

This calvinist teaching states that man is so depraved that he is dead in his sins.
He is so wicked in his heart that he is unable to raise up on his own to see the light of God.
For this reason, they teach, God must first regenerate a person, and then they become saved and are able to
have faith in God.

These verses are used: I'll be using both the NASB and The Living Bible


FAITH COMES BEFORE SALVATION AS TAUGHT IN THE N.T.

Ephesians 2:1 NASB
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

TLB
1Once you were under God’s curse, doomed forever for your sins.



1 Corinthians 2:14 NASB
14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

TLB
14 But the man who isn’t a Christian can’t understand and can’t accept these thoughts from God, which the Holy Spirit teaches us. They sound foolish to him because only those who have the Holy Spirit within them can understand what the Holy Spirit means. Others just can’t take it in.



So, what they teach is that we are dead, God makes us alive and regenerates us and then we become saved.

This is the opposite of what Christians have believed throughout the ages and which every denomination teaches.
That is: That we believe God's revelation to us....we believe the gospel...we have faith in God... THEN God saves us by His grace.
Ephesians 2:8-9 NASB
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

TLB
8 Because of his kindness, you have been saved through trusting Christ. And even trusting is not of yourselves;[a] it too is a gift from God.
9 Salvation is not a reward for the good we have done, so none of us can take any credit for it.


It is clear from the above that we have faith first...
and then we are saved by the Grace of God, through the gift of salvation....
the gift spoken of is salvation.
Salvation is a gift and not a work, so that no one may boast.


Romans 5:1 NASB
1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

TLB

So now, since we have been made right in God’s sight by faith in his promises, we can have real peace with him because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us.

We have been justified by faith.
We have faith first....
and then we are justified. (made right with God)
It is through our faith that we are justified...not the other way around.
We get salvation by having faith.


Acts 16:31 NASB
31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,

TLB
They replied, “Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved,,,



Paul told the jailer that he was to believe in the Lord
and he would be saved.
The belief comes first....
The salvation comes second.


DEATH AS IT IS TAUGHT IN THE N.T.

There are 2 types of death in the bible.
Physical death
Spiritual death - Separation from God

Death is spoken of in the N.T. as separation from God.
Adam was told that if he ate the fruit, he would surely die.
He did not die physically.
He died spiritually - he became separated from God.
BUT, Adam could still hear God...he was not so "dead" that he could not hear God.

Genesis 3:9-10 NASB
9Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?”
10He said, “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.”

TLB

9 The Lord God called to Adam, “Why are you hiding?”
10 And Adam replied, “I heard you coming and didn’t want you to see me naked. So I hid.”


Genesis 2:17 NASB
17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

TLB
for its fruit will open your eyes to make you aware of right and wrong, good and bad. If you eat its fruit, you will be doomed to die.”



When we were dead in our sins it means that we were separated from God.
It does not mean that it's not possible for us to even know about God...
It does not mean that we cannot think, hear, see or become aware of God.
Adam could hear God...he could hide from God...he was NOT totally depraved......he was only separated from God.

Scripture tells us that God reveals Himself to mankind,,,beginning with Abraham in the O.T.
and even before that because God is visible in creation, Romans 1:19-20...everyone can know God; man will have no excuse when he
appears before God...man will not be able to say that God did not reveal Himself to the very creatures He created.
Why would God create man kind in HIS IMAGE....and then not reveal Himself to His creatures?
God so loved the world and surely He wants the world to know about Himself, the creator.
John 3:16

As Genesis teaches through Adam, even in our sinful condition:
we can still hear God even in a sinful state,
we can still hide from Him
we can still be afraid of Him
we can still respond to Him

Even though man is dead in sin he can still know about God and is still able to reply to God.

MAN IS NOT TOTALLY DEPRAVED.

He is not so depraved that he is unable to respond to God.
Calvanism is about intellectual formulas to resolve an emotional dilemma.

The older I get, the more I realise my only sense of where I am is how I feel.
I can set a whole load of goals, work down the list and feel elated and full of purpose because I finished the list.

But it is the feeling that confirms my success or failure. This reality is why wealth, goals which declare things will be different if I achieve this, rather than, things will be different if I relate to life differently and feel from the heart as God intended.

I am in this strange place. My daughter is getting married and my sister is dying of cancer. And both at exactly the same time. I cannot be in both situations fully, but must mourn with those the mourn and rejoice with those that rejoice. Because of covid we have not been able to see my sister, other than 30 mins to help move her to hospital, which was a blessing to express our love and support face to face.

But how do I know what is in anothers heart and mind, my wife, my daughter, my sister. In truth I guess and observe, and I trust. These are those closest to me, yet in another sense separated. God is not different, I guess and observe and trust His words and actions, His openness and hope. It is hard to put you faith in just one thing, but Jesus put it all in His resurrection which is so unique, because literally only someone who knows this will happen would do this. It is literally doomed to failure for anyone else. And His heart is there is an open door to who we are if we listen and follow. So many are lost in so many different ways, to use the term depraved is miss-leading. Jesus simple used the term lost, and being found. Another phrase Jesus used was blind, hard of hearing, and of some choosing evil over good.

Our blessing in this generation has shifted everything from surviving and coping to caring and empowering. You can literally at university say you are not coping with life, and they will give you more time with exams etc. Even when I grew up, it is suck it in and carry on. Stiff upper lip, take in like a man, ie just die with courage.

What makes things even further complicated is we now know ptsd causes radical behaviour changes, promiscuous behaviour etc. dysfunctional reactions. Standing back and just calling this all depraved is missing the point. The real healing that needed is loving people where they are, and showing Jesus came into this mess to shine a light and help us out. Our simple grasp of faith is hitting a hard place with dementia, that eats someone from the inside out. The Lord knows, and by His grace we are saved,

God bless you
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Member
From
America’s Sparta
Gender
Male
Messages
29,813
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Calvanism is about intellectual formulas to resolve an emotional dilemma.

The older I get, the more I realise my only sense of where I am is how I feel.
I can set a whole load of goals, work down the list and feel elated and full of purpose because I finished the list.

But it is the feeling that confirms my success or failure. This reality is why wealth, goals which declare things will be different if I achieve this, rather than, things will be different if I relate to life differently and feel from the heart as God intended.

I am in this strange place. My daughter is getting married and my sister is dying of cancer. And both at exactly the same time. I cannot be in both situations fully, but must mourn with those the mourn and rejoice with those that rejoice. Because of covid we have not been able to see my sister, other than 30 mins to help move her to hospital, which was a blessing to express our love and support face to face.

But how do I know what is in anothers heart and mind, my wife, my daughter, my sister. In truth I guess and observe, and I trust. These are those closest to me, yet in another sense separated. God is not different, I guess and observe and trust His words and actions, His openness and hope. It is hard to put you faith in just one thing, but Jesus put it all in His resurrection which is so unique, because literally only someone who knows this will happen would do this. It is literally doomed to failure for anyone else. And His heart is there is an open door to who we are if we listen and follow. So many are lost in so many different ways, to use the term depraved is miss-leading. Jesus simple used the term lost, and being found. Another phrase Jesus used was blind, hard of hearing, and of some choosing evil over good.

Our blessing in this generation has shifted everything from surviving and coping to caring and empowering. You can literally at university say you are not coping with life, and they will give you more time with exams etc. Even when I grew up, it is suck it in and carry on. Stiff upper lip, take in like a man, ie just die with courage.

What makes things even further complicated is we now know ptsd causes radical behaviour changes, promiscuous behaviour etc. dysfunctional reactions. Standing back and just calling this all depraved is missing the point. The real healing that needed is loving people where they are, and showing Jesus came into this mess to shine a light and help us out. Our simple grasp of faith is hitting a hard place with dementia, that eats someone from the inside out. The Lord knows, and by His grace we are saved,

God bless you


Sorry for your sister.


God bless you and your family with peace and comfort.





JLB
 

Butch5

Member
From
Homer Georgia
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
4,677
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
TOTAL DEPRAVITY -

This calvinist teaching states that man is so depraved that he is dead in his sins.
He is so wicked in his heart that he is unable to raise up on his own to see the light of God.
For this reason, they teach, God must first regenerate a person, and then they become saved and are able to
have faith in God.

These verses are used: I'll be using both the NASB and The Living Bible


FAITH COMES BEFORE SALVATION AS TAUGHT IN THE N.T.

Ephesians 2:1 NASB
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

TLB
1Once you were under God’s curse, doomed forever for your sins.



1 Corinthians 2:14 NASB
14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

TLB
14 But the man who isn’t a Christian can’t understand and can’t accept these thoughts from God, which the Holy Spirit teaches us. They sound foolish to him because only those who have the Holy Spirit within them can understand what the Holy Spirit means. Others just can’t take it in.



So, what they teach is that we are dead, God makes us alive and regenerates us and then we become saved.

This is the opposite of what Christians have believed throughout the ages and which every denomination teaches.
That is: That we believe God's revelation to us....we believe the gospel...we have faith in God... THEN God saves us by His grace.
Ephesians 2:8-9 NASB
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

TLB
8 Because of his kindness, you have been saved through trusting Christ. And even trusting is not of yourselves;[a] it too is a gift from God.
9 Salvation is not a reward for the good we have done, so none of us can take any credit for it.


It is clear from the above that we have faith first...
and then we are saved by the Grace of God, through the gift of salvation....
the gift spoken of is salvation.
Salvation is a gift and not a work, so that no one may boast.


Romans 5:1 NASB
1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

TLB

So now, since we have been made right in God’s sight by faith in his promises, we can have real peace with him because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us.

We have been justified by faith.
We have faith first....
and then we are justified. (made right with God)
It is through our faith that we are justified...not the other way around.
We get salvation by having faith.


Acts 16:31 NASB
31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,

TLB
They replied, “Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved,,,



Paul told the jailer that he was to believe in the Lord
and he would be saved.
The belief comes first....
The salvation comes second.


DEATH AS IT IS TAUGHT IN THE N.T.

There are 2 types of death in the bible.
Physical death
Spiritual death - Separation from God

Death is spoken of in the N.T. as separation from God.
Adam was told that if he ate the fruit, he would surely die.
He did not die physically.
He died spiritually - he became separated from God.
BUT, Adam could still hear God...he was not so "dead" that he could not hear God.

Genesis 3:9-10 NASB
9Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?”
10He said, “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.”

TLB

9 The Lord God called to Adam, “Why are you hiding?”
10 And Adam replied, “I heard you coming and didn’t want you to see me naked. So I hid.”


Genesis 2:17 NASB
17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

TLB
for its fruit will open your eyes to make you aware of right and wrong, good and bad. If you eat its fruit, you will be doomed to die.”



When we were dead in our sins it means that we were separated from God.
It does not mean that it's not possible for us to even know about God...
It does not mean that we cannot think, hear, see or become aware of God.
Adam could hear God...he could hide from God...he was NOT totally depraved......he was only separated from God.

Scripture tells us that God reveals Himself to mankind,,,beginning with Abraham in the O.T.
and even before that because God is visible in creation, Romans 1:19-20...everyone can know God; man will have no excuse when he
appears before God...man will not be able to say that God did not reveal Himself to the very creatures He created.
Why would God create man kind in HIS IMAGE....and then not reveal Himself to His creatures?
God so loved the world and surely He wants the world to know about Himself, the creator.
John 3:16

As Genesis teaches through Adam, even in our sinful condition:
we can still hear God even in a sinful state,
we can still hide from Him
we can still be afraid of Him
we can still respond to Him

Even though man is dead in sin he can still know about God and is still able to reply to God.

MAN IS NOT TOTALLY DEPRAVED.

He is not so depraved that he is unable to respond to God.
This may be off topic, but the quotes from the the Lving Bible show just how bad paraphrased Bibles really are. It's so clear that the writer is imposing his biases on the text.
 

Butch5

Member
From
Homer Georgia
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
4,677
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
One of the reasons that theologies like this exist is because Christians are taught to proof text. Each denomination has its proof texts. "We believe this and these verses prove it". Few are the Christians I've met who understand how things actually work through the Bible. Contrary to what many may believe the Bible isn't just a collection of proof texts we go to in order to prove a point. Rather, the Bible is a cohesive whole from Genesis to Revaltion. Sadly, many do see or understand this. In Genesis God said the seed of the woman would crush the head of the serpent. The Bible is the story of how this all plays out. But, again, many don't see this because they've been taught to compartmentalize the Bible into a collection of verses used to prove a point. I've heard churches claim that they're a New Testamenr church and disregard the Old Testament. A statement like that tells me that I am dealing with ignorant people. People who have no foundation for what they believe. If you don't know the Old Testament you don't know your history or the hope that you have.

It really is disheartening to see people who love the Lord be so misguided. What's worse is that many are too arrogant to ever let themselves come to a place where they could learn the truth. Biblical illiteracy is rampant in the Church today. This can easily be seen in the fact that 4 of the most universally accepted doctrines in the church aren't even Biblical concepts.
 

Rollo Tamasi

Warrior for Christ
Supporter
From
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TOTAL DEPRAVITY -

This calvinist teaching states that man is so depraved that he is dead in his sins.
He is so wicked in his heart that he is unable to raise up on his own to see the light of God.
For this reason, they teach, God must first regenerate a person, and then they become saved and are able to
have faith in God.

These verses are used: I'll be using both the NASB and The Living Bible


FAITH COMES BEFORE SALVATION AS TAUGHT IN THE N.T.

Ephesians 2:1 NASB
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

TLB
1Once you were under God’s curse, doomed forever for your sins.



1 Corinthians 2:14 NASB
14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

TLB
14 But the man who isn’t a Christian can’t understand and can’t accept these thoughts from God, which the Holy Spirit teaches us. They sound foolish to him because only those who have the Holy Spirit within them can understand what the Holy Spirit means. Others just can’t take it in.



So, what they teach is that we are dead, God makes us alive and regenerates us and then we become saved.

This is the opposite of what Christians have believed throughout the ages and which every denomination teaches.
That is: That we believe God's revelation to us....we believe the gospel...we have faith in God... THEN God saves us by His grace.
Ephesians 2:8-9 NASB
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

TLB
8 Because of his kindness, you have been saved through trusting Christ. And even trusting is not of yourselves;[a] it too is a gift from God.
9 Salvation is not a reward for the good we have done, so none of us can take any credit for it.


It is clear from the above that we have faith first...
and then we are saved by the Grace of God, through the gift of salvation....
the gift spoken of is salvation.
Salvation is a gift and not a work, so that no one may boast.


Romans 5:1 NASB
1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

TLB

So now, since we have been made right in God’s sight by faith in his promises, we can have real peace with him because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us.

We have been justified by faith.
We have faith first....
and then we are justified. (made right with God)
It is through our faith that we are justified...not the other way around.
We get salvation by having faith.


Acts 16:31 NASB
31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,

TLB
They replied, “Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved,,,



Paul told the jailer that he was to believe in the Lord
and he would be saved.
The belief comes first....
The salvation comes second.


DEATH AS IT IS TAUGHT IN THE N.T.

There are 2 types of death in the bible.
Physical death
Spiritual death - Separation from God

Death is spoken of in the N.T. as separation from God.
Adam was told that if he ate the fruit, he would surely die.
He did not die physically.
He died spiritually - he became separated from God.
BUT, Adam could still hear God...he was not so "dead" that he could not hear God.

Genesis 3:9-10 NASB
9Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?”
10He said, “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.”

TLB

9 The Lord God called to Adam, “Why are you hiding?”
10 And Adam replied, “I heard you coming and didn’t want you to see me naked. So I hid.”


Genesis 2:17 NASB
17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

TLB
for its fruit will open your eyes to make you aware of right and wrong, good and bad. If you eat its fruit, you will be doomed to die.”



When we were dead in our sins it means that we were separated from God.
It does not mean that it's not possible for us to even know about God...
It does not mean that we cannot think, hear, see or become aware of God.
Adam could hear God...he could hide from God...he was NOT totally depraved......he was only separated from God.

Scripture tells us that God reveals Himself to mankind,,,beginning with Abraham in the O.T.
and even before that because God is visible in creation, Romans 1:19-20...everyone can know God; man will have no excuse when he
appears before God...man will not be able to say that God did not reveal Himself to the very creatures He created.
Why would God create man kind in HIS IMAGE....and then not reveal Himself to His creatures?
God so loved the world and surely He wants the world to know about Himself, the creator.
John 3:16

As Genesis teaches through Adam, even in our sinful condition:
we can still hear God even in a sinful state,
we can still hide from Him
we can still be afraid of Him
we can still respond to Him

Even though man is dead in sin he can still know about God and is still able to reply to God.

MAN IS NOT TOTALLY DEPRAVED.

He is not so depraved that he is unable to respond to God.
What churches teach this stuff?
I've never been in one in 36 1/2 years.
 

jaybo

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One of the reasons that theologies like this exist is because Christians are taught to proof text. Each denomination has its proof texts. "We believe this and these verses prove it". Few are the Christians I've met who understand how things actually work through the Bible. Contrary to what many may believe the Bible isn't just a collection of proof texts we go to in order to prove a point. Rather, the Bible is a cohesive whole from Genesis to Revaltion. Sadly, many do see or understand this. In Genesis God said the seed of the woman would crush the head of the serpent. The Bible is the story of how this all plays out. But, again, many don't see this because they've been taught to compartmentalize the Bible into a collection of verses used to prove a point. I've heard churches claim that they're a New Testamenr church and disregard the Old Testament. A statement like that tells me that I am dealing with ignorant people. People who have no foundation for what they believe. If you don't know the Old Testament you don't know your history or the hope that you have.

It really is disheartening to see people who love the Lord be so misguided. What's worse is that many are too arrogant to ever let themselves come to a place where they could learn the truth. Biblical illiteracy is rampant in the Church today. This can easily be seen in the fact that 4 of the most universally accepted doctrines in the church aren't even Biblical concepts.
Okay, I'll bite... What are the "4 of the most universally accepted doctrines in the church [that] aren't even Biblical concept"?

And "many are too arrogant to ever let themselves come to a place where they could learn the truth" is itself an arrogant statement that begs explanation.
 

Butch5

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Okay, I'll bite... What are the "4 of the most universally accepted doctrines in the church [that] aren't even Biblical concept"?

And "many are too arrogant to ever let themselves come to a place where they could learn the truth" is itself an arrogant statement that begs explanation.
Hi Jaybo,
I'll list the doctrines but not discuss the6n in this thread. I don't want to derail it. The doctrines are, The Immortal Soul, The Heavenly Destiny, Eternal Conscious Torment, and the modern Trinity Concept of a 3 in 1 God.

Regarding my other statement, it's not meant to be arrogant. It's simply been my experience.
 

Rollo Tamasi

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I feeHi Jaybo,
I'll list the doctrines but not discuss the6n in this thread. I don't want to derail it. The doctrines are, The Immortal Soul, The Heavenly Destiny, Eternal Conscious Torment, and the modern Trinity Concept of a 3 in 1 God.

Regarding my other statement, it's not meant to be arrogant. It's simply been my experience.
Boy, you experience a lot of negative stuff.
I feel sorry for you.
I hope you are able to overcome it.....
 

Butch5

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Boy, you experience a lot of negative stuff.
I feel sorry for you.
I hope you are able to overcome it.....
Not a lot of negative stuff. A lot of people who either don't know how or refuse to reason properly. People who are so determined to hold their beliefs that they will argue against and try to prove Scripture wrong. I've had Christians who claim to believe the Bible say that there are people who follow Satan that will be saved just to hold to their doctrines. When the only options left were to claim, followers of Satan will be saved or admit their doctrine was wrong, they chose to claim that followers of Satan would saved.
 
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Wrg1405

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Calvanism is about intellectual formulas to resolve an emotional dilemma.

The older I get, the more I realise my only sense of where I am is how I feel.
I can set a whole load of goals, work down the list and feel elated and full of purpose because I finished the list.

But it is the feeling that confirms my success or failure. This reality is why wealth, goals which declare things will be different if I achieve this, rather than, things will be different if I relate to life differently and feel from the heart as God intended.

I am in this strange place. My daughter is getting married and my sister is dying of cancer. And both at exactly the same time. I cannot be in both situations fully, but must mourn with those the mourn and rejoice with those that rejoice. Because of covid we have not been able to see my sister, other than 30 mins to help move her to hospital, which was a blessing to express our love and support face to face.

But how do I know what is in anothers heart and mind, my wife, my daughter, my sister. In truth I guess and observe, and I trust. These are those closest to me, yet in another sense separated. God is not different, I guess and observe and trust His words and actions, His openness and hope. It is hard to put you faith in just one thing, but Jesus put it all in His resurrection which is so unique, because literally only someone who knows this will happen would do this. It is literally doomed to failure for anyone else. And His heart is there is an open door to who we are if we listen and follow. So many are lost in so many different ways, to use the term depraved is miss-leading. Jesus simple used the term lost, and being found. Another phrase Jesus used was blind, hard of hearing, and of some choosing evil over good.

Our blessing in this generation has shifted everything from surviving and coping to caring and empowering. You can literally at university say you are not coping with life, and they will give you more time with exams etc. Even when I grew up, it is suck it in and carry on. Stiff upper lip, take in like a man, ie just die with courage.

What makes things even further complicated is we now know ptsd causes radical behaviour changes, promiscuous behaviour etc. dysfunctional reactions. Standing back and just calling this all depraved is missing the point. The real healing that needed is loving people where they are, and showing Jesus came into this mess to shine a light and help us out. Our simple grasp of faith is hitting a hard place with dementia, that eats someone from the inside out. The Lord knows, and by His grace we are saved,

God bless you
Thinking of you and your family.
 

PeterJens

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Thinking of you and your family.
Thank you.

The idea of being pulled in two different directions is not easy, but equally it is true.
Such things were common place once, but now we often talk like this is unique.

What for me is the recurring theme is love shown by people to one another and shared bonds about the people they really care about, and truly how much this really means.

Jesus is the rock and also through Him we see our true selves and where we are anchored often in the people closest to us, and how this truly rocks us when things shift. If we stayed anchored in Jesus and focus on what matters, when the storm passes, the house still stands, amen.

Too many have been blown like chaff in the wind, and when the storm passes nothing is left.
I see the love and strong foundations in my kids in their 20's and how young they still are, but making life changing decisions now which have stood many storms, and come out stronger and more complete on the other side.

I have only begun to scrap the surface of Jesus's words, eternal is just the beginning.

God bless you
 

JLB

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I've had Christians who claim to believe the Bible say that there are people who follow Satan that will be saved just to hold to their doctrines. When the only options left were to claim, followers of Satan will be saved or admit their doctrine was wrong, they chose to claim that followers of Satan would saved.

Amen. I can name the person who claimed this.


Claiming that Christians who take take the mark of the beast are still saved, because OSAS.




JLB
 

JLB

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What churches teach this stuff?
I've never been in one in 36 1/2 years.

People in this forum are teaching this doctrine of being saved, born again first, then later on they have the ability to believe the Gospel.

Do you want me to name the people here at this Forum who are promoting this unbiblical doctrine, which is just “another gospel”?



JLB
 

Wrg1405

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Not a lot of negative stuff. A lot of people who either don't know how or refuse to reason properly. People who are so determined to hold their beliefs that they will argue against and try to prove Scripture wrong. I've had Christians who claim to believe the Bible say that there are people who follow Satan that will be saved just to hold to their doctrines. When the only options left were to claim, followers of Satan will be saved or admit their doctrine was wrong, they chose to claim that followers of Satan would saved.
Evening.

Really sorry but your post has me confused.

How on earth can a Christian say that those who follow satan will be saved just to hold on to their doctrines? What doctrines we talking about here?

Don't get the only options left either.
 

Wrg1405

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Amen. I can name the person who claimed this.


Claiming that Christians who take take the mark of the beast are still saved, because OSAS.




JLB
Hi,

Do you believe the mark of the beast is yet to happen?
If so why so?

Interested to know because there are some who believe that it has already happened and some who think it is yet to happen.
 
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