Why didnt God take away the choice without violating freewill

[KV-44-v1]

While debating on Reddit, i found this interesting objection.

"And this God could have simply removed the option for [adam and eve] to do that while keeping every other part of their free will intact, and as specified above, it already seems He hates that particular part of humankind's free will, so why not take away from the start instead of setting up a situation where it would be possible for that to happen?"

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

God doesn't "hate" free will. He didn't create robots, he created human in his own image, and for that, free will is a necessity, since God created the whole universe out of his own free will, no external pressure or influence. The fall of Adam and Eve was expected - don't you think God is intelligent enough to know the Streisand effect when he gave Adam a strict order of not touching the Tree of Knowledge? If you don't know what Streisand effect is, go google it. You know, "be fruitfull and fill the earth" already implied that Adam and Eve were to leave the Garden of Eden and populate the earth with their descendants, they were never supposed to remain in the Garden forever. The Tree of Knowledge was a test, which Adam and Eve failed.

 

[Knotical]

The problem here is they assume we actually have free will. If you study the true mechanics of salvation one must come to the conclusion that we do not have free will. That our outcome in this world was predetermined before time began, and everything that has, and will, transpire according to what God laid down before the creation of the universe.

There are certain people who will never be saved, and there are people who will be saved. The Bible speaks of this repeatedly, and those who have eyes to see, and ears to hear, will understand.

 

[Vaccine]

While debating on Reddit, i found this interesting objection.

"And this God could have simply removed the option for [adam and eve] to do that while keeping every other part of their free will intact, and as specified above, it already seems He hates that particular part of humankind's free will, so why not take away from the start instead of setting up a situation where it would be possible for that to happen?"

The flaw in their statement is "... keeping every other part of their free will intact." God taking away an option also takes away their freewill.
By what logic does a person's free will remain intact when somebody else made a decision for them?

 

[Knotical]

The flaw in their statement is "... keeping every other part of their free will intact." God taking away an option also takes away their freewill.
By what logic does a person's free will remain intact when somebody else made a decision for them?

Ah, but that is the confusion. People assume they have free will which means they think they have a choice.

 

[Fastfredy0]

To the degree that man has Free Will, God's Free Will is limited. The inferior {man} controls the superior (God).
(where Free Will = uninfluenced self-determination)

For example, if my free will determines my salvific faith then God does not have free will to adopt and not adopt me as his son. I control God. He must respond to my 'free will'. God's actions are an effect of my cause. He must respond to my 'free will'; my wishes and not His.

This contradicts scripture:
Job 35:7 “If you are righteous, what do you give God, Or what does He receive from your hand? 8 “Your wickedness affects only a man such as you, And your righteousness affects only a son of man [but it cannot affect God, who is sovereign]”
Job 23:13 But He is unchangeable, and who can turn Him? And what He wants to do, that He does.
Job 41:11 Who has first given to Me, that I should repay him? Whatever is under the whole heavens is Mine.

 

[Whatever]

Maybe it was God's purpose for Adam and Eve to sin!

Rom 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

No sin, no vessels of wrath for God to show His wrath and power against.

Eph 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Maybe it was God's purpose for Adam and Eve to sin!

Rom 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

No sin, no vessels of wrath for God to show His wrath and power against.

Eph 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will

It wasn't God's purpose for them to sin, but it was His purpose for them to eat the Tree of Knowledge - when they were READY. I believe God put the tree in the garden as a test of obedience and compliance, which Adam failed.

 

[KV-44-v1]

The problem here is they assume we actually have free will. If you study the true mechanics of salvation one must come to the conclusion that we do not have free will. That our outcome in this world was predetermined before time began, and everything that has, and will, transpire according to what God laid down before the creation of the universe.

There are certain people who will never be saved, and there are people who will be saved. The Bible speaks of this repeatedly, and those who have eyes to see, and ears to hear, will understand.

no, that is calvinism. There are lots of "IF we do X"... in the Bible.
There is nothing to suggest we are puppets. Why should anyone praise anyone for doing good if they were programmed to anyway? Your belief wouldn't fly in a court of law. "Oh, my outcome was predetermined anyway." So what's the point of anything if we are just puppets? If we have no freewill is that not a bad reflection on God's Character? Why did Jesus die if no one had a choice anyways? If we have no freewill then why does God punish some people? How can destroying robots be "just"?? If we do not have freewill, how is it just for God to deal with our sin?
What, then, is a human without freewill besides a "glorified" robot? How is your view on human will supposed to be any better than the view of an athiest?

Why do you believe that salvation somehow limits freewill?
Eyes and ears to sense and understand? Sounds like that's not the "humans are robots" camp.

 

[KV-44-v1]

To the degree that man has Free Will, God's Free Will is limited.

No. That's a pride statement, not fact. Limited how by what? He created the universe and has power over all Creation. He judges. So how can you Biblically and logically say that?

The inferior {man} controls the superior (God).

WRONG. THAT IS HUMANISM. Pretty sure you won't find the early Church teach that!
Job 38:4, Joshua 24:14 , Psalm 2:11 ,
Also, that is a new (nonBiblical) belief that wants to enter Christianity, not an orthodox one.

(where Free Will = uninfluenced self-determination)

One is the primary driver of their actions. We can decide accordingly, or not decide. God almost certainly has much more options, given He's God.

For example, if my free will determines my salvific faith then God does not have free will to adopt and not adopt me as his son.

That's illogical. Its like saying my wanting or not wanting a gift denies someone the ability to give me a present. He could if He wants to but will He? God will give us our choice, for Him or against Him. He is just.

I control God. He must respond to my 'free will'.

!!

God's actions are an effect of my cause. He must respond to my 'free will'; my wishes and not His.

Then how is He God? Also, no, when we pray sometimes it is not immediately granted.

This contradicts scripture:
Job 35:7 “If you are righteous, what do you give God, Or what does He receive from your hand? 8 “Your wickedness affects only a man such as you, And your righteousness affects only a son of man [but it cannot affect God, who is sovereign]”
Job 23:13 But He is unchangeable, and who can turn Him? And what He wants to do, that He does.
Job 41:11 Who has first given to Me, that I should repay him? Whatever is under the whole heavens is Mine.

yup. our freewill does not really affect God Himself. Might affect His actions, tho. God responds to our actions, but that's not what He *needs* to do, He can easily do otherwise. For example, David's baby died in spite of David's crying out and wishing for God to let the baby live.

Just because God responds does not mean His Will is limited. He does it because of His Character, and He is not going to violate His Character, It is perfect. He wouldn't want to go against His Nature.

 

[KV-44-v1]

It wasn't God's purpose for them to sin, but it was His purpose for them to eat the Tree of Knowledge - when they were READY. I believe God put the tree in the garden as a test of obedience and compliance, which Adam failed.

How did you come by this take, that God might, later on, let people eat from the tree after they do the necessary things?

 

[KV-44-v1]

The flaw in their statement is "... keeping every other part of their free will intact." God taking away an option also takes away their freewill.
By what logic does a person's free will remain intact when somebody else made a decision for them?

Freewill is not an all-or-nothing deal. By that logic, any limits (and we humans have LOTS of those) infringe on our will, make it nonexistent.

The argument posited in OP could go further:
"God is Omnipotent so He could, say, throw the serpent to the ground and fling it far away before it met Adam n Eve. Or mabye He could have sent a deer to go in front of them, and the deer would dance.
Sin is so bad, it has resulted in so many deaths, tons of destruction, so why would God not want to take these measures? The serpents will would be limited but not taken away, because it would not have met them to begin with. And same goes for any creature if the enemy wanted to use other creatures. So adam n eve's will is intact because they are not faced with such a choice. "

 

[KV-44-v1]

Maybe it was God's purpose for Adam and Eve to sin!

Rom 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

Yes, endured with much longsuffering. So God will not break the sinner's freewill, He will perhaps be showing them mercy, but then eventually, God in His Justice, ""has"" to punish them.
Don't abuse God's Grace!

No sin, no vessels of wrath for God to show His wrath and power against.

Eph 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will

Whats the version ? Rsv? Niv? ?

 

[KV-44-v1]

Ah, but that is the confusion. People assume they have free will which means they think they have a choice.

We assume it for the basically the same reason people tend to assume murder is bad.
Also why we tend to assume there is something beyond this realm, which is why people turn to paganism, etc. to fill their hunger for what's outside this realm. They don't know or dont want to know about God or know God.
But we as Christians know that going to paganism is relying on broken cisterns and false, sinful ways. Run to God, not "alternate routes". Jesus is THE Way, Truth, and Life.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

How did you come by this take, that God might, later on, let people eat from the tree after they do the necessary things?

Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! (Is. 5:20)

How are we supposed to know good from evil without the tree of knowledge? Without the knowledge of good and evil, we live in a 1984 dystopia where war is peace, ignorance is strength, slavery is freedom.

 

[KV-44-v1]

Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! (Is. 5:20)

This was written after the first humans rebelled. This also talks about those thinking and teaching the opposite of what is true.

How are we supposed to know good from evil without the tree of knowledge? Without the knowledge of good and evil, we live in a 1984 dystopia where war is peace, ignorance is strength, slavery is freedom.

Mabye God could give us the knowledge later on. No need for the tree to do it.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

This was written after the first humans rebelled. This also talks about those thinking and teaching the opposite of what is true.

Mabye God could give us the knowledge later on. No need for the tree to do it.

But he didn't, the source of knowledge remains the same. And that "necessary thing" you mentioned is maturity. With great power comes great responsibility, and the tree of knowledge was powerful enough to open the eyes and make the partaker like God. If Adam were mature enough to handle that magnitude of power and act like God, then he may be granted permission to eat it; but he and Eve fell to the devil's temptation and ate it prematurely, and that caused disaster, as it cursed the whole earth, it was like pushing the wrong button which wrecks the whole system.

 

[KV-44-v1]

But he didn't,

What didn't He do?

the source of knowledge remains the same.

What is the source and why?

And that "necessary thing"

Where did i say "necessary thing"?

you mentioned is maturity. With great power comes great responsibility, and the tree of knowledge was powerful enough to open the eyes and make the partaker ["]like God["].

That means having a similar characteristic God has, i think. Like how God is love, and we love people and love God.
Not in the sense of having equal power or knowledge as Him.

If Adam were mature enough to handle that magnitude of power and act ["]like["] God, then he may be granted permission to eat it; but he and Eve fell to the devil's temptation and ate it prematurely, and that caused disaster, as it cursed the whole earth, it was like pushing the wrong button which wrecks the whole system.

Then why did God allow the serpent to tempt them fairly early on instead of, say, 25 years after they were created?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

What didn't He do?

"give us the knowledge later on. No need for the tree to do it."

What is the source and why?

The same tree

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Where did i say "necessary thing"?

Post 11. Don't play dumb.

That means having a similar characteristic God has, i think. Like how God is love, and we love people and love God.
Not in the sense of having equal power or knowledge as Him.

Then why were Adam and Eve barred from the tree since they were made in the image of God, already endowed with all these godly characteristics?

Then why did God allow the serpent to tempt them fairly early on instead of, say, 25 years after they were created?

For the same reason God allowed Satan to torture Job and tempt Jesus. You don't know when.