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Why Do Christians...?

I've read that one of the big things that Jewish Rabbis have against Christians is that they don't know how to interpret the Hebrew Holy Scriptures. The topic of tithing is one of those. Any knowledgeable Jew knows that you cannot give a Biblical tithe, and what you are calling a tithe is not a Biblical tithe.

What I am calling a tithe? What do you mean?

Tithe merely means 10%; What one actually tithes is arbitrary, but biblical tithes were to be of the "increase"; as in "crops";
A Jew going up to the temple could exchange the tithe for money in order to bring it to the temple, and deposit it there; but really -- it was not to be of all income like you're suggesting Christians are to give the churches.

The Mosaic law made tithes of crops mandatory; but nothing else that I am aware of. I think the idea of tithing income was an act of piety among Jews for the sake of the poor; and the stranger.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/14408-tithe
 
Tithe merely means 10%;



So how do you apply your tithe Biblically? Because someone else in the Old Testament chose to give 10 %?
If that's the case, then that's fine.
But to impose it on the congregation as a requirement to receive Gods' blessings?
You are robbing God?
You are under a curse?

example:
Assembly of God churches; required to only receive donations and gifts.
To get this, they may use the terms "tithes and offerings".
And they are encouraged to use Malachi 3:10;

This is wrong!
 
So how do you apply your tithe Biblically?

We have two topics going on, the jewish Tithe, and the Christian one;
Biblically, the Jewish tithe is handled like this now:
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/isr...ible/Rights_and_Obligations/Tithing.shtml?p=2

The red-heffier remark in the article is a puzzle to me, but essentially -- the priesthood doesn't need upkeep; so the tithe is "token" (symbolic only.)

Because someone else in the Old Testament chose to give 10 %? If that's the case, then that's fine.
Before the time of Moses, some people voluntarily gave 10% of their "increase" (not of their whole substance) in acknowledgement of God.
Moses codified that into permanent practice; for the upkeep of the priests, and to provide for the poor.

But to impose it on the congregation as a requirement to receive Gods' blessings? You are robbing God? You are under a curse? example: Assembly of God churches; required to only receive donations and gifts. To get this, they may use the terms "tithes and offerings". And they are encouraged to use Malachi 3:10; This is wrong!
Ahhh.... I see.
Again, ten means divine; the purpose of the tithe is to do God's work; not to harm man; notice malachi is conditional, having an "If" in it.

Malachi 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

The "windows of heaven" refers to the rain needed to raise crops. In Malachi 3:10, what God said is that if you bring me one tenth of the increase in your crops to my temple, I will pour out the rain you need in order to grow more than you need.
Therefore: God is expecting his people to thank him (Greek: eu-charis) for the crops they have, and in exchange he will bless them; But Malachi doesn't directly apply to non-agricultural communities.

Likewise, the tithe is not meant for the members of the church alone -- it is meant for the orphan, widow, and stranger.
Even on the Jewish site, they acknowledge that roughly half the tithe is intended for the poor based on years collected.

Although churches do have the right to ask for recompense for doing the work of God; eg: we have an obligation to support those who do God's work; none the less -- If a christian denomination is collecting from those unable to feed themselves, they have violated the purpose of the tithe -- which is as a thank you for an increase of some kind.

Even in the case of Melchizadeck, it was as a "thank you." to God for delivering the spoils of war, and the return of Lot.
(Don't overlook that this is where God saved Sodom, before he destroyed them for being thankless later.)

The connection between the sabbath years (years of gleaning for the poor and stranger) and that of the tithe, are not things which belong to the law of Moses alone; their purpose remains even in the church today:

James 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

And the remaining verses James 2:1-4 directly apply as well.
The sabbath and the tithe were created for man; that is, for his good not his suffering.
 
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Malachi 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

Malachi 2 KJV
And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you.

It appears to me that the people were paying their tithe to the Levite priests, but they, the priests, were not giving the 1% to the storehouse at the temple or offerings.

I've never found anywhere, that the tithe was ever anything besides food products. I've gotten the feeling that this has something to do with all food came directly from the earth, God's creation and God's work but I haven't ever figured it out, it's just a feeling sitting there. Maybe someday I'll see.
 
The tithes of today cannot be validated by the old or new Testament. It's a travesty. It has done the same amount of damage as the clerical/laity construct. Tithes ties the hands of the believer so he cannot hear from God on true n.t. voluntary giving to whom God tells you to give. The poor and the widows suffer the most for they are forced into tithing, taking away their desperate needs.
 
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The tithes of today cannot be validated by the old or new Testament. It's a travesty. It has done the same amount of damage as the clerical/laity construct. Tithes ties the hands of the believer so he cannot hear from God on true n.t. voluntary giving to whom God tells you to give. The poor and the widows suffer the most for they are forced into tithing, taking away their desperate needs. Devouring
widow's houses indeed.

Just keep your money!!! I tithe faithfully and am extremely blessed supernaturally putting God first. Even giving more than I can afford always brings lots more. Put the Kingdom of God first, all else is added to you. Very easy to understand principle that my money invested into God's things will go much further than investing it into anything worldly.

God told me to pack up and Move to Branson MO................... I did just that with only 165.00 left when we pulled into town after a 8hr drive. We did not know anyone, had no place to stay, but God says go, you go.

We pulled in Thursday evening and best we could afford was a Hotel. Me, the wife and 2 kids, all huddled into a small hotel room. That Friday was our first church service in our new Church, and the Pastor (Brother Keith Moore) was taking an offering for a boat to preach the gospel in the South Pacific. The Lord spoke to me as they were passing around the bucket............. He said....."Put all 130.00 into that boat."

ummm. That was all we had, and had to pay for the next day hotel room or we was sleeping out in our old van. However, the money would have run out anyway, and I told the wife to hand me all the money we had left and I dropped it in the bucket for the boat.

The next morning I got up, and the hotel bill was due again at 11am. At 8am I was just thanking God for being faithful and making a way, keeping His word. At about 9am I get a call on my cell phone, it was a lady we knew back home and she said that God kept her up all night to send us money. So I went to walmart in Branson and she sent us 200.00!!!! Woot, God never fails.

I paid for our room and we got some food, that Sunday at church, someone handed my wife 300.00!!! Glory to God, that 135.00 is now multiplied to 500.00............ We never tell anyone we have need, but always go to God. Never hint at it, never say a word.

Also that week, someone left several bags of food by our hotel door????? Who the heck even know we where there???

So keep your money Withheld, and unbelief. You come to late to say it don't work and God is not faithful.......... Way to late....

The poor and the widows suffer the most for they are forced into tithing, taking away their desperate needs.

The widow gave her last two mites.............. Got the attention of Jesus and forever mentioned in the Word.

As for me, I will always tithe, always put God first in everything, and nobody is asking for your money. Just keep it.

Mike.
 
The tithes of today cannot be validated by the old or new Testament.
Solid and I'd say biblically irrefutable point.

It's funny that most in the tithing camp don't seem to understand what the tithes even were. All they seem to believe is that it was a collection of 10% of earnings (money). Much more study should be undertaken to know what it was before folks become so quick to champion something.

People ignore the fact that no levitical authority was initiated or should I say carried forward from Judaism to the church. It was much later that church leaders used their power and influence to pursuade and convince the 'laity' that they should pay tithes to the church (leaders). Oh how deceptive and effective! It's a shame that folks have been convinced that giving money to institutions molded around the ideas and pride of men is one and the same as giving to God. People will give 10% to the church they belong to as they pass and overlook people who are truly in need and feel as if that's somehow a good thing despite what texts like Matthew 25 show readers Jesus promoted.
 
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It's funny that most in the tithing camp don't seem to understand what the tithes even were. All they seem to believe is that it a 10% of earnings (money). Much more study should be undertaken to know what it was before folks become so quick to champion something.

Would it be possible, to take 10% from just what you made every week or so and give it in faith because of something God said?

Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

Being the only way you can figure to put God's Kingdom first (Matt 6) and God honor that?

Not under some law, or rule, but by something someone sees in the Word and follows from a cheerful heart?

Mike.
 
Would it be possible, to take 10% from just what you made every week or so and give it in faith because of something God said?

Being the only way you can figure to put God's Kingdom first (Matt 6) and God honor that? Not under some law, or rule, but by something someone sees in the Word and follows from a cheerful heart? Mike.


The problem is that God never told the church to give a certain amount of money. What the church WAS instructed to do was to present themselves entirely to the service of God and His Christ. Texts like Romans Romans 12:1-2 illustrate the calling the church had and the tithe was nowhere mentioned.

As far as putting the kingdom first, to the best of my understanding I believe the scriptures teach that this is done by loving God above all else and the way to show love for God is to honar His Christ by keeping his commandments (John 14:21, 1 John 5:3).

As far as giving (the monatary contribution) exemplified in the NT, a common theme we typically find is that it was done to help meet the needs of saints that were without. This included the believers that traveled to proclaim the gospel message (1 Corinthians 16:1-2, 2 Corinthians 8:15, Acts 2:44-45, Acts 4:34-35).
 
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Closed for Moderator review.... this thread has quickly gone away from the spirit of this forum..... Please read the 'sticky's that are individual to the FoS forum. Thank you reba
[MENTION=841]StoveBolts[/MENTION] [MENTION=13142]Sparrowhawke[/MENTION]
 
Thread is reopened ... Please remember the admonishment of the stickys .. Thank you reba
 
Brother Mike, you judged me without knowledge. You insinuated that I don't ever give money. You also said that I am living in unbelief.
When we were about 2 years in to salvation God told us to give everything we own away and follow His leading. We were tithing at the time because the church said it was gospel. He led us from Omaha to Texas, everything we had left in our car. 3 children on board. For one month He led us by His Spirit. I,ll not go into details. Did you know brother that He took care of all of our needs in spite of our tithing. Then He took us to task for the next 20 years or so over the tithing deal.We lived in the pit. I wouldn't say poverty but we were hoeing a long hard row.
Then as I pondered over the fact that there were a lot of poor folks tithing as well n the church who were staying poor though they had been tithing for years, some of them a life time. Widows suffering, low income workers struggling. The only ones who seemed to profit well were contractors and business men, and to many of them doing shady things to get there.
So God finally told us we could exit the 'den of thieves' and seek Him in the wilderness. After all my years of tithing and hurting my family(he who does not support his family is worse than an infidel), I started looking a little closer to the word of God. Now God did bless us at the start with our little understanding, like I shared with you but He wanted to take us into a deeper understanding.
To cut to the chase, I eventually lost my 26 year job and my heart went south on me. God gave to me this verse. 'You know the grace....remember that word...grace of our Lord Jesus that in that though He was rich yet for our sakes He became poor that we through His poverty might be rich. Now I had already stopped with the tithing. I had never gotten back any financial help by tithing for 27 years...never. I laid hold of this one verse and took it to God for about a month wanting to show me this grace deal. 900.00 showed up out of nowhere when we desperately needed it. Months later we needed help 900.00 came in again...no tithing going on.....only faith and being led by the Spirit in my giving...to the poor mainly.
God led us to take 35k of my pension and make a Christian movie. So we did. God has blessed us beyond belief since we abandoned the lie of the tithe and allow Him to direct our giving.
Why is it that the church teaches that we are to be led by His Spirit in all things...except in our giving. Answer: pastors, which is a false position anyway, have no faith that God will supply their needs. Like the tv evangelists scream at you to have faith and send all your money to them. The very faith they demand out of you they do not have...they have to beg and threaten. Also God healed my heart condition...by faith. Faith my friend, not law or the traditions of men or the doctrine of demons. So I believe God did bless you not because of tithing but in spite of the falsehood. It's because He loves us but He also wants us to come into the knowledge of His truth. It's by GRACE ...by faith and hearing His voice. Jesus said ' I Am the good Shepherd. My sheep hear My voice'. His voice and His untwisted word!
 
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is ejected still around ? the message is ! the op , or importance, i don't see as the 'tithe', but the care for one another, especially as it is written of one's family. tithe if you want to , by faith (for whatever is not of faith is sin). don't tithe if you don't want to - do by faith whatever is of faith, so as not to sin.

the other important note from this thread is below .


I've read that one of the big things that Jewish Rabbis have against Christians is that they don't know how to interpret the Hebrew Holy Scriptures.
The topic of tithing is one of those. Any knowledgeable Jew knows that you cannot give a Biblical tithe, and what you are calling a tithe is not a Biblical tithe.
.... ... ....
I'm from Florida, supposedly part of the "Bible Belt".
Find me a good church and I'll go to it.
..... .... ....
I don't think Paul had this in mind when he wrote it.
What I have seen myself is people being told to give the church 10 % of their income, and then they don't have enough money to take care of their own families.
Then when they go to church for help, they get a can of beans.
I am not exaggerating, I have seen this all too often.

this has been important for centuries, very important in fact and in truth >>
"one of the big things that Jewish Rabbis have against Christians is that they don't know how to interpret the Hebrew Holy Scriptures."

(not just Rabbis, but all Jews who are taught Scripture from birth; and all those who learn it later as well)

what is good is that some Christians have learned how to interpret the Hebrew Holy Scriptures accurately, and then are able to tell a Jew the truth of Yeshua HaMashiach and His Love for them. Then it is possible for the wall between them to be brought down, as Yhvh intends. Without the truth, such growth and freedom and sharing of the GOOD NEWS is greatly hindered if not impossible.
 
is ejected still around ? the message is ! the op , or importance, i don't see as the 'tithe', but the care for one another, especially as it is written of one's family. tithe if you want to , by faith (for whatever is not of faith is sin). don't tithe if you don't want to - do by faith whatever is of faith, so as not to sin.

the other important note from this thread is below .




this has been important for centuries, very important in fact and in truth >>
"one of the big things that Jewish Rabbis have against Christians is that they don't know how to interpret the Hebrew Holy Scriptures."

(not just Rabbis, but all Jews who are taught Scripture from birth; and all those who learn it later as well)

what is good is that some Christians have learned how to interpret the Hebrew Holy Scriptures accurately, and then are able to tell a Jew the truth of Yeshua HaMashiach and His Love for them. Then it is possible for the wall between them to be brought down, as Yhvh intends. Without the truth, such growth and freedom and sharing of the GOOD NEWS is greatly hindered if not impossible.

Amen!

I would also like to share what the New Testament says about giving.

31 And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness. 32 Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common. 33 And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all. 34 Nor was there anyone among them who lacked; for all who were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold, 35 and laid them at the apostles' feet; and they distributed to each as anyone had need. 36 And Joses, who was also named Barnabas by the apostles (which is translated Son of Encouragement), a Levite of the country of Cyprus, 37 having land, sold it, and brought the money and laid it at the apostles' feet. Acts 4:31-36


1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. 2 And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles' feet. 3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God." 5 Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last. So great fear came upon all those who heard these things. Acts 5:1-5


Giving is important to the Holy Spirit.


11 So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things. 12 And through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people. And they were all with one accord in Solomon's Porch. 13 Yet none of the rest dared join them, but the people esteemed them highly. Acts 5:11-13


JLB
 
Our money goes where our heart is at. Rent for example is not on my mind first, but God is. I count on God to take care of those things, I just do His things. It's real simple.
 
Just for clarification, which tithe are we talking about in this thread, as I've seen scripture for different ones?

1) Levitical tithe
2) Festival tithe
3) Tithe to the poor every 3 years?? (averaged out, these 3 tithes would come out to about 22% of one's increase)

Besides the tithes mentioned in scripture, I've seen 2 other forms of giving. The other is the Firstfruits -- that has no set amount or percentage to it like the tithe. It's merely the first of anything. And finally, the 1/2 shekel redemption money (later the temple tax) used for the continual offerings for all Israel.

Now, above and beyond all that, there were 5 types of offerings: burnt, cereal (bloodless), peace, sin, and trespass in addition to the tithes, firstfruits and redemption money. However, as Christians, Christ became our sacrifices, especially where sin is concerned, but the principal of dedicating all to God, be it resources or ourselves can still apply.

Makes us see we did not "make it" at all.

I'd say as a Christian, the bare minium of giving should be the tithe on a regular basis to whoever teaches you and you get your spiritual food from, and in addition some free-will offerings at times and to the needy. Like I once heard said, that a pastor could make the same average salary as ten tithing people. Since that's the usually the highest paid position in a church, there would be no need for worrisome budget talks yearly in a church of say, 100 people. Something to think about.
 
I think we must bring our offering as our hearts tell us.I agree with Bob Utley that nowhere in the NT is anyone compelled to give 10%.That obligation burned down with the OT Temple in 70 AD.If someone chooses to give 40% thats his or her choice.But it is wrong for church leaders to exploit the OT rulings to manipulate if not extort Christians through a false sense of guilt.eg quoting Malichi or other Jewish Temple Regulations..
1 Cor 3:16 Dont you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you.
2 Corinthians 6:16 What agreement is there between he temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God .A Go has said (cfLev26:12) I will live with them and walk among them.." This does not excuse us of our monthly pledges and offerings to keep the Church Precinct cooking ,which is obvious..
 
I think we must bring our offering as our hearts tell us........

Jeremiah 17:9

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Nope. Don't trust mine. But I trust a biblical percentage. God even made it simple. Move the decimal point of your paycheck to the left one place. Don't even need to be a math genius. That's God's figuring, not mine. Just a thought.
 
Paul in Galatians 2:19 did not say the law was dead; he said he was dead to the law. In other words the law had no authority over him because he was under grace and law and grace cannot mix, Galatians 2:21. The law is not dead as some teach. You can live under the Law if you choose, but Galatians 3:10-13 states the law is very much alive, so alive that it carries a curse with it if violated trying to live by it.
Paul never taught tithing, in truth he taught against it. Tithing is not for the born-again believer today. Tithing was incorporated into the law given to Moses, Leviticus 27:26-34. The same law where circumcision was incorporated into, Lev. 12:1-8. We do not circumcise or sacrifice animals according to the law, so why do we tithe. Romans 10:4 For Christ are the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believes. Galatians 3:10-13 for as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse and man is not justified by the law in the sight of God, but Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law.

When you tithe, if you do not tithe correctly according to the law you will be cursed with a curse, Malachi 3:8, 9. If you tithe correctly you will get blessings poured out upon you, Malachi 3:10. The blessings are not just all about money for there are many different types of blessings. In truth, if you tithe correctly the blessings of God would be overflowing in your life. Some of you, like myself, have been tithing and tithing and nothing has changed in your life. If the way tithing has been taught by man than all the ministries that have been teaching tithing for years should have so much money they would not have enough room to store it all and the banks would be overflowing with all the money you should be receiving by the way man has taught us for years.

The women with the two mites gave her last from the heart and not because she had to, but because she wanted to. There is nothing wrong with tithing as long as you are giving from the heart and not because someone has told you that you have to give 10%.

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cumin and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith; these ought to have been done and not to leave the other undone. See, the hypocrites do these things for show, but they do not give out of love. They give because they were told to do so.
 
I think we must bring our offering as our hearts tell us.I agree with Bob Utley that nowhere in the NT is anyone compelled to give 10%.That obligation burned down with the OT Temple in 70 AD.If someone chooses to give 40% thats his or her choice.But it is wrong for church leaders to exploit the OT rulings to manipulate if not extort Christians through a false sense of guilt.eg quoting Malichi or other Jewish Temple Regulations..
1 Cor 3:16 Dont you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you.
2 Corinthians 6:16 What agreement is there between he temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God .A Go has said (cfLev26:12) I will live with them and walk among them.." This does not excuse us of our monthly pledges and offerings to keep the Church Precinct cooking ,which is obvious..

We really need to stop looking at what we consider "BAD" Churches to examine what the Word says. The Tithe is not a OT ruling as we are the seed of Abraham and blessed with faithful Abraham. Abraham gave the tenth based on him personally wanting to put God first and by faith, not by some law.

Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
(Heb 7:4)

If someone tries to get money out of us by laying on the guilt trip of stealing from God, then it's our own fault for not examining the Word better, not the churches fault. Any giving we do should not be motivated out of necessity (The act of feeling pressured to give based on a presumed need.)

Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
(2Co 9:7)

As a believer, we need to not blame others, but take responsibility for not being mislead, and know what the scriptures say. People that are lazy and follow some minister into the ye old poor house is their own fault.

How hard is it to open the book and actually read it once in awhile.

Blessings.
 
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