Why Do Christians...?

[Tony Hyman]

We really need to stop looking at what we consider "BAD" Churches to examine what the Word says. The Tithe is not a OT ruling as we are the seed of Abraham and blessed with faithful Abraham. Abraham gave the tenth based on him personally wanting to put God first and by faith, not by some law.

Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
(Heb 7:4)

If someone tries to get money out of us by laying on the guilt trip of stealing from God, then it's our own fault for not examining the Word better, not the churches fault. Any giving we do should not be motivated out of necessity (The act of feeling pressured to give based on a presumed need.)

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I agree that every should do his or her best to "read" the Scriptures in todays context, back in the days of Christ only trained scribes could..According to Metzger "The Text of the New Testament" they even got paid per page ( papyrus), so ordinary believers either Christian or stickers to the OT Jews rejecting Christ would be utterly dependent on what the Priest's divine message. There is a responsibility on all believers as to daily study the Scriptures , "not bread alone" Matthew 4:4 cf Deut 8:3.The person(no matter who) giving a sermon today is however held accountable to ensure that the flock whether or not they can read. He must nevertheless to"Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth."Therefore the responsibility would be on both preacher and listener , to ensure that this truth is understood and carried out.

Comments by prominent theologians are by no means inspired Scripture and one should follow as the Spirit guides as we read. Stll I think a little help can do no harm.In trying to get the grips of the" tithes" as referred to in Heb 7 :5 Donald Guthrie " The comparison which the writer intends to make is not between Abraham and Melchizedeck , but between Aaron and Melchizedeck ..This explines the sudden reference to Levi.( i.e. as in Brother Mike's "not some law" my insert)

In the matter of rights Melchizedek differed from the Levitical priests in that he recieved tithes , not by command , but by the spontaneous action of Abraham.No attempt is made in this epistle to explain why Abraham tithed his spoils..The writer is content to leave this matter."Hebrews Tyndale Commentaries Unquote
So it remains a matter of the 'heart' as God says "..I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts."Jeremiah 31:33

 

[Brother Mike]

In the matter of rights Melchizedek differed from the Levitical priests in that he recieved tithes , not by command , but by the spontaneous action of Abraham.No attempt is made in this epistle to explain why Abraham tithed his spoils..The writer is content to leave this matter."Hebrews Tyndale Commentaries Unquote
So it remains a matter of the 'heart' as God says "..I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts."Jeremiah 31:33

Far better post there, very good

Life in the Lord Jesus ought to be simple. The Word ought to be simple. The Word is spiritually discerned because it's to simple to make sense without complicating it. I don't look at commentary very often, if at all. Most of it's old, and to be honest, they did the best job they could based on the doctrines they believed. Very hard to compare scriptures back then, we have computers and many resources they did not.

The part of the law put away is the ordinances part. Keep the feast, keep the day, touch not, taste not, whatever. Thou shalt not commit adultery is still pretty clear, but walking in the new law of love with the Love of God shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit, one could overcome such a thing with the law of love written in our heart.

Still, a man reaps what He sows, and sowing adultery is not a good seed to sow. The law of sin and death is still in effect today.

The question then is does God still consider holding tithes and offerings from him robbery? Paul said concerning food that nothing now should be refused, do we have a change in what God considers theft?

For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return? Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
(Mal 3:6-9)

How we look at this? keep it simple, the Man said He considers it robbery for his covenant people to keep their tithe and not give it to him.

God don't need the money, the Church don't need it. If God calls there to be a church somewhere, he is more than able to sustain his own projects.

I like to keep it simple though.

Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
(Mal 3:10)

Putting God's Kingdom first, with what people most value (Money) seems to be a good way for God to do what He said He will do.

So I tithe, I don't rob God, and get blessed with more than I gave. The easy road.

Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
(Mat 6:19-21)
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
(Mat 6:33)

It's real easy to see who is first in a believers life by looking at who gets the money when it comes it. As for me, God has never, not one time failed in supplying the need and giving me more to give.

Jacob kept it simple also, and He ended up in the end, very wealthy.

And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God: And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.
(Gen 28:20-22)

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Thank you Mike.
Some thoughts here.
I don't think using Genesis 28:20-22 is appropriate to prove your point.
At this point Jacob has realized that God spoke to him as he had his forefathers.
But he then makes a vow.
And the vow starts with "if".
This word alone creates doubt.
If God protects me, if God provides safety for me, if God feeds me, if God clothes me.
He goes on to add to the "if" with "then".
If you do all these things for me, then you will surely be my God.
Immature faith is what I see.
And if God will provide him with all these things, then he will give God a tenth.

Also worthy of mention is that Abraham gave a tenth of all he had at a time of great abundance and he gave it voluntarily and there is no mention he ever gave it again.

To clarify my position, I am in no way against giving God a tenth of all I have, but rather it is the manner in which the church teaches giving.
Why do they do what they do.
I think that has been answered here already in this thread.
Thank you.

 

[Brother Mike]

Thank you Mike.
Some thoughts here.
I don't think using Genesis 28:20-22 is appropriate to prove your point.
At this point Jacob has realized that God spoke to him as he had his forefathers.
But he then makes a vow.
And the vow starts with "if".
This word alone creates doubt.
If God protects me, if God provides safety for me, if God feeds me, if God clothes me.
He goes on to add to the "if" with "then".
If you do all these things for me, then you will surely be my God.
Immature faith is what I see.
And if God will provide him with all these things, then he will give God a tenth.

Also worthy of mention is that Abraham gave a tenth of all he had at a time of great abundance and he gave it voluntarily and there is no mention he ever gave it again.

To clarify my position, I am in no way against giving God a tenth of all I have, but rather it is the manner in which the church teaches giving.
Why do they do what they do.
I think that has been answered here already in this thread.
Thank you.

Hey there!!! and blessings. Thought this thread was done.

I bring it as a point because tithing ought to be a heart thing and not a law thing. God said bring to my remembrance things I said, Plead together, so that thou may be justified. Isa 43:26

So, true Jacob had some Character issues, my have known He had Character issues, and started off letting God know He is willing to serve, give a tenth if God does what God did for his fathers and bless him.

Jacob was no Paul, David, Or Jesus when it came to faith, but He did have principles down from his up bringing. I really like David, saying that God gave into my hand the bear and lion, what is a UN-covenanted, foreskin-ed Giant going to do to me. That last tribulation worked patience, and patience Hope in David that What God done before, God will do again.

Jacob was sort of shady, so I think since He worked the principles, God honored that with tithing, it was out of a heart condition and not a law.

Blessings.

 

[Malachi]

this"?
Why do all the many teachings in the New Testament on giving never mention tithing?

Because Christian giving is based upon entirely different principles, where God receives 90-100% and the believer retains the balance for his or her own needs. The widow's mite is the fundamental principle of Christian giving. The Lord said that "she of her want [poverty] did CAST IN ALL SHE HAD [100%], even all her living".

The tithe was clearly commanded to Israel, and when everything was added up it would probably have amounted to 30% of revenues/produce. And the tithe was meant to support the levitical priesthood (Numbers 18:20-26). That priesthood was abolished at the Cross. Today all believers are priests, and Christian giving is a spiritual exercise in liberality (1 Cor. 16:3; 2 Cor. 8:2).

 

[Deborah13]

Also worthy of mention is that Abraham gave a tenth of all he had at a time of great abundance and he gave it voluntarily and there is no mention he ever gave it again.

Hey Rollo,
Abraham, gave a tithe of the spoils from the war he had just fought in order to rescue his nephew Lot. Part of those spoils of war were people.
He let his generals keep their share of the spoils they had personally captured.
Then he returned his own 90% back to the King of Sodom that he had taken it from.
At this time Abraham wasn't even at home in his own country or area. So he could not have been tithing from his own possessions and especially could not have given all that he owned.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Malachi 3:and 4: all verses, I Timothy 5:8
https://www.google.com/search?clien...God&gws_rd=ssl#channel=t26&q=bountiful+giving

 

[TOG]

Why do all the many teachings in the New Testament on giving never mention tithing?

The reason nothing is mentioned is because nothing had changed. The New Testament wasn't written with us in mind, but was written for those who lived at a time when the temple still stood in Jerusalem. They were expected to keep offering their tithes, just as they always had, so there was not need to mention it. If it had changed, the apostles woudl have said something about it.

The TOG​

 

[Malachi]

The reason nothing is mentioned is because nothing had changed.

When Christ proclaimed on the cross "IT IS FINISHED" (John 19:30) everything changed. This is a study worthy of all Christians.

 

[TOG]

When Christ proclaimed on the cross "IT IS FINISHED" (John 19:30) everything changed. This is a study worthy of all Christians.

God didn't change, and neither did His will for us, which is reflected in His law which He gave through Moses.

The TOG​

 

[Malachi]

God didn't change, and neither did His will for us, which is reflected in His law which He gave through Moses.

TOG,
Please take some time to carefully study the epistles to the Galatians and to the Hebrews. God never changes, but His dealings with mankind changed at the Cross, which is foolishness to the "Greeks" [the rationalists] and a stumbling block to the"Jews" [the self-righteous] (1 Corinthians 1:23).

 

[TOG]

TOG,
Please take some time to carefully study the epistles to the Galatians and to the Hebrews. God never changes, but His dealings with mankind changed at the Cross, which is foolishness to the "Greeks" [the rationalists] and a stumbling block to the"Jews" [the self-righteous] (1 Corinthians 1:23).

The law didn't change. It is not possible to tithe properly according to the law, without Levites, and Aaronic priesthood and a temple in Jerusalem, and there are some other commandments that require those things and are therefore not possible, but the ones that are possible should still be kept, not to earn our salvation, but to obey God and do His will. That's what the apostles did and what both Jewish and Gentile converts did for centuries after Christ. It's rather interesting, if everything changed so much at the crucifixion, that it wasn't until 300 years later, when a Pagan emperor told people not to follow the law on pain of death, that Christians finally figured out that something had changed.

The TOG​

 

[Malachi]

but the ones that are possible should still be kept

With the Law of Moses it is all or nothing. Moses did not allow for any exceptions, and James makes that quite clear (James 2:10). Once again, before you respond, please study Galatians and Hebrews carefully. Those epistles are also the Word of God.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The law didn't change. It is not possible to tithe properly according to the law, without Levites, and Aaronic priesthood and a temple in Jerusalem, and there are some other commandments that require those things and are therefore not possible, but the ones that are possible should still be kept, not to earn our salvation, but to obey God and do His will. That's what the apostles did and what both Jewish and Gentile converts did for centuries after Christ. It's rather interesting, if everything changed so much at the crucifixion, that it wasn't until 300 years later, when a Pagan emperor told people not to follow the law on pain of death, that Christians finally figured out that something had changed.

The TOG​

I never heard that the Gentiles ever went to synagogues on Saturdays before.
Is that true?
Is it documented somewhere?

 

[TOG]

I never heard that the Gentiles ever went to synagogues on Saturdays before.
Is that true?
Is it documented somewhere?

They most likely did, at least for the first few decades, since that was the regular meeting place. Christian churches as we know them weren't invented until the 4th century. But even if they hadn't, that's not what I was talking about, since synagogues aren't mentioned in the law. I only said they kept the law, as it is written in the Old Testament. They certainly didn't keep all the pharisaic traditions and may or may not have kept other extra-biblical customs. They did keep at least some biblical commandments, such as the Sabbath and the annual festivals until about the beginning of the 4th century.

The TOG​

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

They most likely did, at least for the first few decades, since that was the regular meeting place. Christian churches as we know them weren't invented until the 4th century. But even if they hadn't, that's not what I was talking about, since synagogues aren't mentioned in the law. I only said they kept the law, as it is written in the Old Testament. They certainly didn't keep all the pharisaic traditions and may or may not have kept other extra-biblical customs. They did keep at least some biblical commandments, such as the Sabbath and the annual festivals until about the beginning of the 4th century.

The TOG​

And as I asked ,is it documented somewhere?
Because this is the first I have heard of it.

 

[TOG]

And as I asked ,is it documented somewhere?
Because this is the first I have heard of it.

Yes, it's documented quite a bit. There was, for example, the quartodeciman debate, which lasted from some time in the second century until Emperor Constantine I declared it illegal to celebrate Passover or observe other "Jewish" (biblical would be more accurate) practices. If you read the article in that link, you'll see that it was only the churches in and around Rome that originally didn't celebrate Passover.

It is also documented that most of the church as late as the 4th century and as much as a quarter of the church in the 14th century still kept the 7th day as the weekly Sabbath. Don't let it scare you off that this article mentions groups that most Christians today consider cults or cults. It also references historical documents from the time in question that show that people still kept the Sabbath.

The TOG​

 

[ReginaForbes]

Why do Christians insist we need to tithe when Jews know they can't tithe? Greed
Why do Christians teach Malachi chapter 3 as a basis for tithing? Greed
Why do Christians never teach the rules for tithing in Deuteronomy chapter 14? Greed
Why do all the many teachings in the New Testament on giving never mention tithing? Because it's not about the almighty dollar, it's about the ALMIGHTY.

Bottom line is we live in a fallen world and that world revolves around money. Cash is "king". And as Samuel said when Israel asked for a king “This is what the king who will reign over you will claim as his rights: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. 12 Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. 16 Your male and female servants and the best of your cattle and donkeys he will take for his own use. 17 He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. 18 When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, but the Lord will not answer you in that day.” Yes, cash has become a terrible tyrant.