Why do feel we have to market salvation as free? What are we really appealing to in a man?

[Dorothy Mae]

I have heard about the free gift of salvation for as long as I can remember. "Salvation is free" meaning you don't have to do anything at all that is difficult or costly or bothersome. If we think about the teaching of Jesus and the apostles, is that the main message we get? Did they teach that one just needs to pray a prayer, "accept Jesus" as though he were unacceptable and desires to be liked, and that is it? Is that really what we even think in the moments after one is convinced to do this?

Think about it. Your standard alter call and some come forward to "accept Jesus" (totally unbiblical but in some cases it is sufficient if the heart is already aware of sin and repentant) and in the minutes following this simple sentence or two, the "new believer" is told that now that they "received this free gift" there are indeed, some strings. They now need to grow in their faith meaning attend church. All of those churches have requirements. Some insist on weekly attendance. Some insist on tithing. Some insist in serving the group in some way. All insist on minimum standards of morality although unless you tell another of your alternative to Jesus' teaching choices, no one is likely to discern a problem. Some, unfortunately today, insist that the new believer must read the Bible ( I say few because this is really not an option and all should insist on this.)

So we call if free but like today's marketing tactics, once you signed up for the "free" whatever, the requirements are added later. So you hook them in and once in, you tell them it is not free after all.

And my second question, are we really appealing to something in a man we want to stir up, getting something for nothing? Is this challenging a man to be better than they know they are now or is this comforting them at the level they are at requiring nothing of them? It is a known phenomenon that when a man has to pay for something, they value it more. Pay a price for your lessons and you are not likely to miss them. Get them for free and you are likely to let it slide. People treat their old junker car differently than a brand new Tesla. Where your treasure is, there is your heart. Offer salvation free and who has their heart in a freebie?

What if we told them it will cost them everything but it is the only life worth living?

 

[gordon777]

It is a simple answer and quickly told in the scripture, about how we received for free.

Firstly to the Apostles, who had been given power by Christ to cure diseases, to raise the dead, to cast out devils, preaching the Kingdom of God, and reminding them how freely they had all received, and now they are to likewise all freely give....



Luke 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.


Matthew 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.




That was the first example, because we see it was power and authority over the devils that Christ had placed ( by the Spirit) into the twelve Apostles. ( The Spirit of knowing the Son is given when the Son made Himself known to us by laying His life down for all ( then we know how He gives all, so we know the same love of God, when Christ was glorified. John 7:39.)

Next, all of the parables of this same Kingdom of God ( which the Apostles were now showing to all of the Kingdom of God) Jesus of course has to give the very same message for all to hear, and believe in ( or to ignore and walk away in their heart.)

The message is again very simple, how Christ shows that we had nothing to pay for the debt we were in, and we desired of the Lord, to have compassion on us, which He did, by HIs own life ( a lot of compassion.) Then it is shown, we are all very glad to receive.

Next, is the requirement of that same compassion being within us. The parable shows the lack of compassion, because that evil servant had not believed in the Lords compassion ( laying His life down for all) so their only interest was self, to receive all they could get, but to give nothing out, even in the very same situation, which not only is not accdeptible to the Lord, it ends in fury and destruction.


Matthew 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

Matthew 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.



It is summed up simply why we receive the Spirit of God, so we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.



1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

 

[gordon777]

Now about forgetfulness.

God cannot testify about Israel for nothing, in fact everybody who thinks they have heard the Gospel message of Jesus Christ, would be silly to not recognise that the scriptures all testify of Christ...(John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.)

Israel was made as an example, of forgetting God, of having their heart exalted, and therefore forgetting God. ( the same as the parable in Matthew 18, where compassion was given by the Lord, but was immediately forgotten to continue in the same compassion, and then showing disregard for the compassion of the Lord, to lay His life down for us even, which is not forgivable.

All such people were already declared in Psalms to have the memory of them cut off from the earth, because they likewise do not remember to show mercy, but they showed instead ( as in Matthew 18) persecution and to even kill the broken hearted ( who God is with.) God places their judgement on their heads, they love cursing, they receive the same, they do not delight in blessing so they have the blessing ( of Christ) far from them.

Israel was destroyed for lack of knowledge ( of God, to remember Him in His ways now made known to the world.)




Psalm 109:15 Let them be before the Lord continually, that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth.
16 Because that he remembered not to shew mercy, but persecuted the poor and needy man, that he might even slay the broken in heart.
17 As he loved cursing, so let it come unto him: as he delighted not in blessing, so let it be far from him.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Hosea 13:6 According to their pasture, so were they filled; they were filled, and their heart was exalted; therefore have they forgotten me.



But, just in case there are disputers, God has confirmed by the Apostles ( who were told to freely give, as they had freely received) that we also must not forget ( as in the parable in Matthew 18.) that we were forgiven of our sins, and we will not have a lasting forgiveness if we are not instead diligent, to have n entrance into the everlasting Kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. ( through having charity, which is to put Jesus Christ on in belief of His kindness, and to put pride out, which is the wickedness of the devil.)



2 Peter 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have heard about the free gift of salvation for as long as I can remember. "Salvation is free" meaning you don't have to do anything at all that is difficult or costly or bothersome. If we think about the teaching of Jesus and the apostles, is that the main message we get? Did they teach that one just needs to pray a prayer, "accept Jesus" as though he were unacceptable and desires to be liked, and that is it? Is that really what we even think in the moments after one is convinced to do this?

Justification is absolutely free for the asking.
People fail to make the distinction between justification and salvation when it's important to do so.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Justification is absolutely free for the asking.
People fail to make the distinction between justification and salvation when it's important to do so.

There’s no difference in scripture. If one is justified and falls away from the faith, they’re no longer justified. It’s a theology allowing a changed life to become an optional extra. Following Jesus is optional. Just get yourself destined for Heaven no matter how you then live.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There’s no difference in scripture.

No, by definition, there's a big difference. You have to be justified to be saved. Justification is an entirely free gift.

If one is justified and falls away from the faith, they’re no longer justified.

Yes, but that doesn't mean there's no difference between justification and salvation.

It’s a theology allowing a changed life to become an optional extra. Following Jesus is optional.

It's only optional and unneeded insofar as being transferred from being unrighteous before God to being righteous before God is concerned. The man in Luke 18:13-14 did nothing except ask for God's mercy to be declared righteous.

Just get yourself destined for Heaven no matter how you then live.

Just because this is what some people think, that doesn't mean justification and salvation aren't different terms for different things. You don't have to think you can live in unrighteousness after being saved to believe that justification and salvation are different things.

A man is justified - that is, made righteous in God's sight - entirely as a free gift of God's grace given through faith in the Son, apart from the merit of his righteous deeds. Just as that was true for our example, Abraham, who was made righteous by believing God's promise about a Son apart from the merit of his righteous deeds.

Righteous deeds follow being made righteous by God and are a direct result of being made righteous by God, and understandably so. For it is from the new nature of righteousness that we have received that we then live for God in righteousness. And so the obedience of the holy life is the sign and evidence that one is justified in Christ. And without that evidence -the evidence of saving transformation - no one will enter into the kingdom of God at the end of the age when Christ sorts the righteous from the unrighteous.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And my second question, are we really appealing to something in a man we want to stir up, getting something for nothing? Is this challenging a man to be better than they know they are now or is this comforting them at the level they are at requiring nothing of them? It is a known phenomenon that when a man has to pay for something, they value it more. Pay a price for your lessons and you are not likely to miss them. Get them for free and you are likely to let it slide. People treat their old junker car differently than a brand new Tesla. Where your treasure is, there is your heart. Offer salvation free and who has their heart in a freebie?

Surely, some people aren't going to appreciate a free gift. But that does not mean righteousness is not a free gift received through believing, and not by working for it:

Romans 5:15-17
15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many! 16Again, the gift is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment that followed one sin brought condemnation, but the gift that followed many trespasses brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive an abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

I value the free gift, even though I didn't work for it, because it's valuable to me that my sins are forgiven. After all these years as a Christian the primary thing that keeps me going is I do not want to give up the forgiveness of sin I have in Christ. It's my most valued, cherished possession. And I didn't pay a dime for it. I got it absolutely free for the asking. But there is the responsibility of guarding that which I have received as a free gift. And I think that's what you are addressing. That's why I say it's important to properly distinguish, when necessary, the difference between justification and salvation.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It is a simple answer and quickly told in the scripture, about how we received for free.

Firstly to the Apostles, who had been given power by Christ to cure diseases, to raise the dead, to cast out devils, preaching the Kingdom of God, and reminding them how freely they had all received, and now they are to likewise all freely give....

Every single one of them had to endure to the end and paid the price for their salvation with their lives. They took up their cross and followed Jesus as he commanded. It wasn’t free. The price a true disciple pays you are ignoring. You focus on what your theology tells you you GET. What you have to give you ignore.

Luke 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.

Do you think about the daily lives of these? What it cost them to
do this?

Matthew 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

Again, do you think about the price they paid?

Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Does this describe the activities of your church? This is what those who received did. shall we say those whose lives aren’t like this haven’t yet received? I’d be careful about using this measure.

That was the first example, because we see it was power and authority over the devils that Christ had placed ( by the Spirit) into the twelve Apostles. ( The Spirit of knowing the Son is given when the Son made Himself known to us by laying His life down for all ( then we know how He gives all, so we know the same love of God, when Christ was glorified. John 7:39.)

Do you DO these deeds described? Shall we assume then you haven’t received? That’s your measure.

Next, all of the parables of this same Kingdom of God ( which the Apostles were now showing to all of the Kingdom of God) Jesus of course has to give the very same message for all to hear, and believe in ( or to ignore and walk away in their heart.)

The message is again very simple, how Christ shows that we had nothing to pay for the debt we were in, and we desired of the Lord, to have compassion on us, which He did, by HIs own life ( a lot of compassion.) Then it is shown, we are all very glad to receive.

And from receiving they all went out and gave. They paid a price. It wasn’t free. Read how they lived and died.

Next, is the requirement of that same compassion being within us. The parable shows the lack of compassion, because that evil servant had not believed in the Lords compassion ( laying His life down for all) so their only interest was self, to receive all they could get, but to give nothing out, even in the very same situation, which not only is not accdeptible to the Lord, it ends in fury and destruction.

Ah, the price they refused to pay….not free.

Matthew 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

Matthew 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.



It is summed up simply why we receive the Spirit of God, so we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

No, the parable is a warning if we don’t forgive others, pay that price, our forgiveness will be revoked. We must forgive others or we won’t be forgiven.

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Well, you can’t honestly just pick whatever scripture you like and say it describes you.

 

[gordon777]

No, the parable is a warning if we don’t forgive others, pay that price, our forgiveness will be revoked. We must forgive others or we won’t be forgiven.

Well, you can’t honestly just pick whatever scripture you like and say it describes you.

Forgiveness comes through compassion, that is why the words are, He had compassion on us.


Matthew 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

Matthew 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?




Next parable of the good Samaritan having compassion also ( GO AND DO LIKWISE TO SHOW MERCY)




Luke 10:33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,

Luke 10:37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.





We see the same message always in all parables, is to show mercy, kindness and compassion ( this is belief in the same compassion Christ had on us)



Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.





Then we know God has forgiven us through compassion.

We know we have to be of that one mind of Christ, to have compassion.

We know we cant shut up bowels of compassion, or the love of God is not dwelling in us.




Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

1 Peter 3:8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:



1 John 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?






Charity is to put on Christ, the bond of perfectness.

Charity is not the giving away of all we possess, or of giving our body to be burned, it is kindness, it is being lowly meek, it is believing all things, bearing all things..




1 Corinthians 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

 

[Tenchi]

I have heard about the free gift of salvation for as long as I can remember. "Salvation is free" meaning you don't have to do anything at all that is difficult or costly or bothersome.

Hmmm... as I'm sure you know, receiving salvation is something one does, but salvation itself, which is in the Person of Christ (John 1:4-12; 1 John 5:11-12; John 14:6; Acts 4:12), we can do nothing to earn (Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5), nor can we add anything to our salvation to make it more effective or complete (Colossians 2:9-10). Christ offers himself to us as our Savior freely, in love, mercy and grace, and we have only to respond in saving faith to his offer and receive him. The consequences of salvation, though, we are warned in Scripture to consider carefully:

Luke 9:57-62 (NASB)
57 As they were going along the road, someone said to Him, "I will follow You wherever You go."
58 And Jesus said to him, "The foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head."
59 And He said to another, "Follow Me." But he said, "Lord, permit me first to go and bury my father."
60 But He said to him, "Allow the dead to bury their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim everywhere the kingdom of God."
61 Another also said, "I will follow You, Lord; but first permit me to say good-bye to those at home."
62 But Jesus said to him, "No one, after putting his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."

Matthew 10:32-39 (NASB)
32 "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.
33 "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 "For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;
36 and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.
37 "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
38 "And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
39 "He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.

Luke 14:25-35 (NASB)
25 Now large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them,
26 "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.
27 "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
28 "For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?
29 "Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him,
30 saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.'
31 "Or what king, when he sets out to meet another king in battle, will not first sit down and consider whether he is strong enough with ten thousand men to encounter the one coming against him with twenty thousand?
32 "Or else, while the other is still far away, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace.
33 "So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.
34 "Therefore, salt is good; but if even salt has become tasteless, with what will it be seasoned?
35 "It is useless either for the soil or for the manure pile; it is thrown out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

And so on.

If we think about the teaching of Jesus and the apostles, is that the main message we get? Did they teach that one just needs to pray a prayer, "accept Jesus" as though he were unacceptable and desires to be liked, and that is it? Is that really what we even think in the moments after one is convinced to do this?

In order to be saved one has only to repent, confess and believe. (Romans 10:9-10; John 3:16; 1 John 5:10; Acts 3:19; 1 John 1:9) Then, in the power of the Holy Spirit, one goes on to manifest his life and work in one's living (Galatians 5:22-23; 2 Corinthians 3:18; 2 Corinthians 4:10-11; Philippians 2:13; Romans 8:13, etc.). If a person is saved without understanding these things, it is doubtful they understood the actual Gospel.

 

[Tenchi]

Think about it. Your standard alter call and some come forward to "accept Jesus" (totally unbiblical but in some cases it is sufficient if the heart is already aware of sin and repentant)...

2 Corinthians 11:4 (NASB)
4 For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.

Paul here implies that the Corinthians had accepted the true Gospel in contrast to the "different gospel" which the Corinthians believers had not accepted. Paul's thinking in terms of acceptance makes sense; for how does one receive the "second birth" if one does not accept the truths of the Gospel and the One they reveal?

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (NASB)
13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.

To the believers at Thessalonica, Paul wrote that they had "accepted" his word (the Gospel - 1 Thessalonians 2:9), as the word of God, remarking that the Gospel had worked in those who had believed it. In this verse, Paul links receiving, believing and accepting together, giving no indication that the idea of accepting the Gospel and the Savior it proclaims was "totally unbiblical."

So we call if free but like today's marketing tactics, once you signed up for the "free" whatever, the requirements are added later. So you hook them in and once in, you tell them it is not free after all.

This happens; for sure. But it shouldn't. Which is your point, I think, right? I agree. The full Gospel is rarely preached or shared these days, just a pared-down, product-marketing version that is, as you say, pretty deceitful.

I would, though, make the distinction again that the holy, Christ-centered life that arises from spiritual regeneration is not salvation itself but merely the result, or product, of salvation. Christ our Savior is given to us as a gift, undeserved and impossible to earn, but the life that is produced as a consequence of his salvation of a person will entail sacrifice and suffering for his sake.

And my second question, are we really appealing to something in a man we want to stir up, getting something for nothing?

It is "another Gospel," a false Gospel, that tells the lost sinner, dead in trespasses and sins, bound under the power of the World, the Flesh and the devil (Ephesians 2:1-3; Titus 3:3), that they can contribute to - that is, earn - their salvation. This is the message of many other false religions, but not of Christianity. Christ is offered to those who are "without strength" (Romans 5:6), ignorant and at enmity with God (Colossians 1:21). They can do nothing to save themselves.

However, once a person is saved, indwelt by the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17; Romans 8:9-15; 1 John 4:13; 1 Corinthians 6:19-20; Titus 3:5), they possess in him all they need to live "godly in Christ Jesus." By the power of the Spirit, every believer can walk in joyful, holy fellowship with their Maker.

Is this challenging a man to be better than they know they are now or is this comforting them at the level they are at requiring nothing of them?

In the man who would "work out his salvation," God must first "work in" the desire and ability to do His will, which He does by the Holy Spirit (Philippians 2:12-13). Both the believer's salvation and their transformation are God's work (Philippians 1:6; 2:13; 4:13; Ephesians 3:16; Romans 8:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Jude 24-25; 1 Peter 5:10) for which He gets all the glory. Every child of God is merely a conduit, a vessel, in and through whom God manifests Himself (2 Timothy 2:21). What God requires of His children is that they submit to Him, in love and humility walking by faith in His promises to them, working out what He works into them.

Offer salvation free and who has their heart in a freebie?

But this mistakes what salvation is, it seems to me. Christ is a Person, not a product, a thing, we possess. He brings to new, spiritual life those who were spiritually separated from himself and infuses them with his life and power, transforming them in a way that is entirely unique, relying on his capacities to do so, not the born-again person's own strength, and will, and sacrifice. When a genuinely born-again person lives in sacrificial obedience to God, then, they are manifesting the Person of Christ, the Fruit of the indwelling Spirit, motivated by his love and joy to do so.

What if we told them it will cost them everything but it is the only life worth living?

Salvation is an exchange: My old, self-centered life for a new life given to me in the Person of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9). In a sense, this exchange does cost me everything; for if I am to experience fully the reality of my second, spiritual birth I have to "die," by faith reckon myself crucified with Christ to my "old man" (Romans 6:1-12; Matthew 10:34-39; 16:24-25; John 12:24-25; Galatians 2:20; 5:24; Colossians 3:1-3), but alive unto God by the power of the Holy Spirit. But this death to myself is accomplished by God through Christ for me. I have only to live by faith in what He has already done for me, daily submitting myself to the Spirit's control. (Romans 6:13-22) It is very definitely a life worth living - the life for which we made, actually.

 

[gordon777]

we can do nothing to earn (Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5), nor can we add anything to our salvation to make it more effective or complete (Colossians 2:9-10). Christ offers himself to us as our Savior freely, in love, mercy and grace, and we have only to respond in saving faith to his offer and receive him. The consequences of salvation, though, we are warned in Scripture to consider carefully:

Abraham did something other than receiving, he believed in God. ( God also was giving a free gift to Abraham, of a son.

God tempting Abraham to give his only son ( given as a free gift by God) blesses Abraham, to multiply his seed, ( as the stars of heaven as God had declared in the free gift of that son, Isaac) shows Gods word is fulfilled only through Abraham obeying the voice of the Lord.

God afterwards confirms the same blessing with Isaac,, because that Abraham obeyed Gods voice, kept His charge, His commandments, His statutes and His laws. ( similar to Phinehas executing the judgement of the Lord, and the Lord counting that to him for righteousness, to all generations for ever more. Psalm 106:30-31.)





Genesis 15;4 And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Genesis 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Genesis 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.



This is how James is testifying to us, how we recognise faith by works. To know we need to do much more than believe there is one God. ( the devil spirit shows they know Jesus, who He is when risen.) Acts 19:15.)

The vain man has to know that their faith without works is dead, being ALONE.




Acts 19:15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Abraham we see was justified by offering his ( free gift from God) only son Isaac to God. This made faith perfect, fulfilling the scripture, of believing in God, and that counted as righteousness, and to be called the friend of God. That was the way we are all justified ( or will not be just, when we do unjustly, to not believe in the voice of God and obey Him as Abraham did.).....




James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.







Israel is then the very opposite example to Abraham believing in the salvation of the Lord.

God did many miracles and rescues for Israel, but it is testified, Israsel believed not in God, which is not trusting in His salvation. ( Abraham had trusted in the salvation of God, that in Abraham all nations woulds be blessed, by also obeying the commandments of God.)




Psalm 78:22 Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation:
23 Though he had commanded the clouds from above, and opened the doors of heaven,
24 And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven.




Then all counts on believing in these testimonies of God. To believe in the name of the only begotten Son of God. ( to remember also, that God required of Abraham, to sacrifice his only begotten son, the free gift given by God, which then would bless all nations.)

Also remembering that God had rained down manna upon Israel, but they did not believe in nor trust in Gods salvation.

Then Christ ( the only begotten Son of God) tells this same message to Israel, face to face, to believe in the Son, ( for salvation) as He is that bread of life. Their fathers had eaten manna but were dead. Christ is the bread which came down from Heaven, for a man to eat and not die.

Jesus shows how when a man eats His flesh, and drinks His blood, they dwell in Christ, and He in them. We are to believe and hear this testimony, that the Son lives by the Father, so he that eats the Son, shall likewise live by the Son.

Then we read how many of the disciples cant believe in this testimony of Christ, which is believing in the risen Lord Jesus Christ. ( to believe in our heart in life, and not death.) Christ confirms that these testimonies shared with u, are Spirit and life. ( faith comes by hearing them. Romans 10;17.)...




John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

John 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

John 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.




Everybody in he world knows and follows the teaching of it not being works of righteousness we have done, and that it is a free gift of God.

But that was not the whole [picture at all, it does not include what Abraham had believed in, what else Abraham did, and most important of all, how we are vain without doing the whole thing that Abraham did. ( will you know vain man, that faith without works is dead being alone ???????)


So the kindness and love of God appeared, ( Christ layed HIs life down for us, to eat His flesh and drink His blood, to have life in us, not death to follow.) It is not works of righteousness we did ( it is His sacrifice, as Abraham was willing to sacrifice.) and the Holy Ghost is shed on us through HIs blood shed. All things we are to believe in and follow, not parts of it, and it is then a faithful saying ( as just shared in James 2.) for they who believed in God ( as Abraham believed in God then also obeyed, to receive the blessing for all nations through Isaac to Christ) for us also to constantly, be careful to maintain good works, it is profitable not just for who the believers help, but also for their own selves. ( to not be vain man, not understanding that faith without works is dead being alone.) and to AVOID FOOLISH CONTENTIONS, AS THEY ARE UNPROFITABLE AND VAIN...



Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.



Tenchi, you are rebuked by Gods Word, if you have to ignore every word testified for you here, making out it is not clear, it will become more clear for you.

 

[Edward]

Ah, the price they refused to pay….not free.

I dunno if anyone said this yet, but you seem to be not realizing the distinction of paying a price.

Salvation is a free gift. And the eLord's mercy will never run out, so I think that one could be saved and receive salvation, and then go home and sit on their blessed assurance and be an unprofitable servant for the Lord. And not lose his salvation if he loves the Lord.

Some people aspire to making deposits in their spiritual bank account, or, doing more for the Lord. The parable of the talents shows us that the Lord rewards profitable servants. But to whom more is given more is required.

Luke 12:47-48
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.../

Is beaten with many stripes symbolic? It doesn't say they lose their salvation. v48 really exlplains that if you would do more for the Lord, then yes, there is a price.

The apostles that you spoke of, they paid a very high price, correct?! Well, they are going to say in Heaven that it was worth it.

Matthew 5:11-12

"God blesses you when people mock you and persecute you and lie about you and say all sorts of evil things against you because you are My followers.

12 Be happy about it! Be very glad! For a great reward awaits you in heaven. And remember, the ancient prophets were persecuted in the same way.../

But we don't have to fear death on earth. The Disciples knew this. They also knew that holding with Jesus makes one a target in the world.

Luke 21:16
Even those closest to you--your parents, brothers, relatives, and friends--will betray you. They will even kill some of you. 17 And everyone will hate you because you are My followers.../

So you actually confuse paying a price with salvation not being a free gift, which I have shown is incorrect. You only start paying a price when your love for the Lord motivates you to do things for Him. We all know the Lord rewards obedience. So maybe the unprofitable servant doesn't get a mansion in Heaven, but a shack on the outskirts of the city? Lol. Still better than anything he had on earth.

 

[gordon777]

so I think that one could be saved and receive salvation, and then go home and sit on their blessed assurance and be an unprofitable servant for the Lord. And not lose his salvation if he loves the Lord.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.



1 John 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

 

[Tenchi]

Abraham did something other than receiving, he believed in God. ( God also was giving a free gift to Abraham, of a son.

Okay. Mind you, God did not give us His only Son in the way, or for the purposes for which, he gave a son to Abraham. Isaac was not a perfect atoning sacrifice sent to redeem mankind. Isaac was not born of a virgin. Isaac was not God in the flesh. In any case, Abraham believed God's promise of a son and in due time received from God what He had promised. What does this have to do with what I wrote?

God tempting Abraham to give his only son ( given as a free gift by God) blesses Abraham, to multiply his seed, ( as the stars of heaven as God had declared in the free gift of that son, Isaac) shows Gods word is fulfilled only through Abraham obeying the voice of the Lord.

God afterwards confirms the same blessing with Isaac,, because that Abraham obeyed Gods voice, kept His charge, His commandments, His statutes and His laws. ( similar to Phinehas executing the judgement of the Lord, and the Lord counting that to him for righteousness, to all generations for ever more. Psalm 106:30-31.)

I have no idea what any of this has to do with what I wrote...

This is how James is testifying to us, how we recognise faith by works. To know we need to do much more than believe there is one God. ( the devil spirit shows they know Jesus, who He is when risen.) Acts 19:15.)

The vain man has to know that their faith without works is dead, being ALONE.

And so? Again, what does this have to do with what I wrote?

The Bible is crystal clear that salvation is by faith, totally apart from works:

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

2 Timothy 1:9 (NASB)
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Titus 3:5-7 (NASB)
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Romans 3:20 (NASB)
20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Galatians 2:16 (NASB)
16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Does an apple tree produce apples in order to be an apple tree? Or does it produce apples because it already is an apple tree? The "good fruit" of the life of Christ the Savior manifests in a person's living because he dwells within them by the Holy Spirit. It is NOT that a person manifests "good fruit" and THEN the Holy Spirit comes to dwell within them any more than that an apple tree produces apples and in order to be an apple tree. Being comes before doing.

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

When one truly believes a thing is so, it will inevitably manifest in one's conduct. If I really believe the rattle snake can fatally poison me with its bite, I won't try to pet it; if I believe the medicine the doctor has prescribed will relieve my illness, I'll consume it even if it tastes awful; if I believe walking every day is important to good health, I'll do so even if its miserable outside. But true belief must exist before the action that expresses it and is all that Scripture indicates is fundamentally required for salvation. Consider the thief on the cross who believed and was promised entrance into God's kingdom though he could do no good works.

Whatever James is saying, he can't be saying that works have a salvific power; for if he did, he would be in direct contradiction to the verses above that explicitly and repeatedly rule out works as necessary to salvation. At most, James is saying that works will follow inevitably from saving faith. But don't make "inevitable" the same as "necessary"; these are two different things. An apple tree will inevitably produce apples - if its well-nourished by the soil it's in, free of pests and disease, and gets plenty of water and sunlight. But if the apple tree is sick, or under-nourished, or caught in a drought, it may not produce apples. Does this mean the apple tree is not an apple tree? Only if you say that apples are necessary to being an apple tree rather than merely inevitable. This would be a silly thing to say, though, since apples only arise from an apple tree because it is an apple tree. It is just as silly to say that a saved person is saved because of their good works. The truth is that it is only because they are already saved that the "fruit of righteousness," the fruit of the indwelling Spirit, appears in their life.

Tenchi, you are rebuked by Gods Word, if you have to ignore every word testified for you here, making out it is not clear, it will become more clear for you.

??? Rebuked? No, I'm not. Quite the opposite, actually.

I don't ignore Scripture gordon777, I just don't accept your...kooky notions about it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No, by definition, there's a big difference. You have to be justified to be saved. Justification is an entirely free gift.

No there’s no difference except in easy salvation theology. But those who insist they needs do nothing to be forgiven except say a few words might be surprised one day. Jesus said follow me and deny yourself. He never preached “receive the free gift.”

Yes, but that doesn't mean there's no difference between justification and salvation.

There might be no difference to Jesus. Those who believed they took the gift denying him the rest of their lives and went their way might find they lost the gift.

It's only optional and unneeded insofar as being transferred from being unrighteous before God to being righteous before God is concerned. The man in Luke 18:13-14 did nothing except ask for God's mercy to be declared righteous.

He beat his breast and deeply humbled himself. That isn’t nothing.

Just because this is what some people think, that doesn't mean justification and salvation aren't different terms for different things. You don't have to think you can live in unrighteousness after being saved to believe that justification and salvation are different things.

Ah but if you think they’re separated you can freely do so. It’s only optional.

A man is justified - that is, made righteous in God's sight - entirely as a free gift of God's grace given through faith in the Son, apart from the merit of his righteous deeds. Just as that was true for our example, Abraham, who was made righteous by believing God's promise about a Son apart from the merit of his righteous deeds.

After that he had to obey. He had to surrender his son. It wasn’t free.

Righteous deeds follow being made righteous by God and are a direct result of being made righteous by God, and understandably so.

Actually no. One has to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Those waiting for God to just change them will be disappointed.

For it is from the new nature of righteousness that we have received that we then live for God in righteousness. And so the obedience of the holy life is the sign and evidence that one is justified in Christ. And without that evidence -the evidence of saving transformation - no one will enter into the kingdom of God at the end of the age when Christ sorts the righteous from the unrighteous.

So if this is so, why are TOS here necessary? Why do churches split and Christians divorce?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So if this is so, why are TOS here necessary? Why do churches split and Christians divorce?

Do you think the sign of transformation is sinless perfection?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No there’s no difference except in easy salvation theology. But those who insist they needs do nothing to be forgiven except say a few words might be surprised one day. Jesus said follow me and deny yourself. He never preached “receive the free gift.”

Righteousness is free in my theology:

Romans 5:15-17
15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many! 16Again, the gift is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment that followed one sin brought condemnation, but the gift that followed many trespasses brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive an abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Is anything free in your theology? It seems not.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Those who believed they took the gift denying him the rest of their lives and went their way might find they lost the gift.

Surely. But that doesn't mean the gift isn't free. It is indeed free.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

He beat his breast and deeply humbled himself. That isn’t nothing.

Was his justification payment owed him for beating his breast and humbling himself?