Why don't catholics carry statues of Paul?

[Heidi]

Why don't catholics parade around with statues of Paul? Afterall, without Paul, we wouldn't have the NT today. And for that matter, why not carry statues of Peter too? We wouldn't have his epistles either without him. Then in no time, the catholics will look just like the Greek and Roman temples and forums where people are elevated above human status. Since they give people the credit for God's work, then instead of praying only to their Father in heaven, they can pray to all these people too, thus taking their time away from their Lord. Then they would really have support from the pagans!

 

[guibox]

Why don't catholics parade around with statues of Paul? Afterall, without Paul, we wouldn't have the NT today. And for that matter, why not carry statues of Peter too? We wouldn't have his epistles either without him. Then in no time, the catholics will look just like the Greek and Roman temples and forums where people are elevated above human status

Catholics could ask the same question about most Protestants. After all, it is mostly from the altar of Paul that many of you worship over that of Christ's words and examples.

Paul's views on the law, Christian conduct, and ecclesiastical issues trump anything Christ did or said to most of you people. Paul is the new Mary as far as Protestants to Catholics go.

 

[AVBunyan]

Paul is the new Mary as far as Protestants to Catholics go.

Nice question Heidi but don't expect a scriptura; or rational response.

The last person Rome wnats to listen to is Paul - Paul teaches grace alone - Rome does not. And pleasel Rome - don't tell me you do.

Guibox - You say this out of ignorance of what the scriptures teach.

And by the way - what Paul teaches is scripture and we do not worship Paul.

Typical response - when you don't have a answer you falsely or ignorantly accuse. :-?

 

[guibox]

Guibox - You say this out of ignorance of what the scriptures teach.

And by the way - what Paul teaches is scripture and we do not worship Paul.

Typical response - when you don't have a answer you falsely or ignorantly accuse. :-?

I call it for how I see it. So many ignore the rest of scriptures and Christ's example and words to beat their Pauline horses to death (usually one or two ambiguous texts) and then present this as the 'truth' at the expense of the rest of scriptures.

Sounds almost like worship to me...

 

[SputnikBoy]

Paul is the new Mary as far as Protestants to Catholics go.

I absolutely agree, guibox. Any newcomer to Christianity would have to wonder when reading some of the posts on this forum WHO exactly is the Savior ...Paul or Jesus?

Nice question Heidi but don't expect a scriptura; or rational response.

The last person Rome wnats to listen to is Paul - Paul teaches grace alone -Rome does not. And pleasel Rome - don't tell me you do.

Yet again, grace has been made a NT phenomenon. AV, grace comes by faith, faith produces good works. That's the way it has always been, both in the Old as well as the New Testament. The individual has NEVER been saved by their works. When are you guys going to catch on?

Guibox - You say this out of ignorance of what the scriptures teach.

Aimed at guibox, but many of you present your OWN interpretations of what the scriptures teach. Oftentimes, those interpretations CONTRADICT what the scriptures teach.

And by the way - what Paul teaches is scripture and we do not worship Paul.

The problem is not with Paul but the fact that much of his writings have been misconstrued by man to fit with mainstream Christian tradition. And, a number of people on this forum DO deify Paul in a manner similar to the Catholics and their deification of Mary. You, AV, may not worship Paul but don't claim to speak for everyone. "We" implies a mainstream Christian clique where one can assume to speak for the other since all are of like mind. Do any of you 'Spirit-filled Christians' ever think for yourselves?

Typical response - when you don't have a answer you falsely or ignorantly accuse. :-?

Aimed at guibox but, again, a 'cliquey' and a rather typical 'mainstream' response.

 

[Imagican]

Well now, let's see folks. Wasn't it Peter that denied EVEN KNOWING CHRIST? THREE TIMES. This man that lived and ate with the Savior, swore that he would even die WITH Him, denied the Savior three times when asked if he even knew him.

Now, let's look at Paul. Persecuting the Christians because he was a 'good' Jew. Christ appeared to this man and he spent the rest of his life suffering every kind of hardship thinkable to spread the Words of Christ until finally murdered for it. Quite a man, this Paul.

And Jesus MUST have seen something PRETTY SPECIAL in this man, Paul. For Paul was NOT a man sent to spread the Word to his OWN people, so much, as he was CHOSEN to spread it to ALL PEOPLE.

Paul running around still trying to teach others how to be 'good Christian JEWS, still needing to follow in their tradition that Jesus strictly opposed. God Himself was forced to send him a vision allowing him to understand EXACTLY what Paul understood already. What God hath cleansed, let NO MAN call unclean. There's a really good lesson to be learned here. Paul was a hard-headed, ignorant, Jewish fisherman that took much scorning and work to be molded into this 'rock', (reminds me a lot of some body REAL close to me, Golly guys, reminds me of ME, (except the Jewish part). Maybe that's why Christ referred to him as 'the rock' to begin with, (his hard head?).

It boils down to this: Was Paul 'filled' with the Spirit or not? If so, then what he taught was what God wanted us to know and understand. Otherwise the Catholics REALLY made a major boo boo in allowing his epistles in the Bible, especially the one written to the Romans.

And Heidi, your right. They already got the statues, why not carry them around so everybody else can worship them too. Whats a 'few more' idols to worship gonna change?

And good point AV, it warrants repeating: I don't know any others that claim to worship Saints other than the Catholics. I don't worship Paul or ANY of the Saints. I admire their examples, (most of them at least), and thank God for their being allowed to offer His Word, but I do not worship any of them. And I don't recall any of them allowing others to worship them even when it was offered. Not when they were alive at least.

 

[TruthHunter]

The difference you note in the devotion of Mary vs. the apostles comes down to an issue of dulia, hyperdulia, and latria.

dulia is the devotion to the Saints, thus the apostles are included in this
hyperdulia includes dulia, but is deeper this level is shown only to Mary because, of here special role in salvation
latria is the worship of God, and those things which are proper to God alone.

 

[Imagican]

Spunt,

I, for one, follow NOTHING 'main-stream' as you put it. My understanding comes from my simple understanding of the Word. Regardless of how simple I am, it's what I understand that I will be judged by. My relationship with Christ and His Father can't be taught to me by 'others'. It's my relationship and it's up to me whether it flourish or become stagnant.

So, I will take what you stated to mean that; since I am totally aware of the fallacy of the Catholic faith I am 'main-stream'. So be it.

Otherwise, I offer that ALL organized religion that I have encountered suffers from much of the same problem: Man-made tradition instead of a healthy relationship with God through His Son. Allowing men to usurp the authority of Christ and the apostles for their own personal gain. God and Christ are enough for me, my friend, and my hopes are that one day it can be enough for all that I might call brothers or sisters, including you.

Your buddy

MEC

 

[TruthHunter]

Paul is the new Mary as far as Protestants to Catholics go.

Nice question Heidi but don't expect a scriptura; or rational response.

The last person Rome wnats to listen to is Paul - Paul teaches grace alone - Rome does not. And pleasel Rome - don't tell me you do.

Guibox - You say this out of ignorance of what the scriptures teach.

And by the way - what Paul teaches is scripture and we do not worship Paul.

Typical response - when you don't have a answer you falsely or ignorantly accuse. :-?

How does the Catholic Church not teach we are saved by Grace?

 

[TruthHunter]

The problem is not with Paul but the fact that much of his writings have been misconstrued by man to fit with mainstream Christian tradition. And, a number of people on this forum DO deify Paul in a manner similar to the Catholics and their deification of Mary. You, AV, may not worship Paul but don't claim to speak for everyone. "We" implies a mainstream Christian clique where one can assume to speak for the other since all are of like mind. Do any of you 'Spirit-filled Christians' ever think for yourselves?

The thing whic interest me here is your choice of wording. "...similat to Catholics and their deification of Mary." Obviously you have chosen to ignore the fact that Catholics do not beilieve Mary to be God, nor even give worship Mary.

 

[TruthHunter]

And good point AV, it warrants repeating: I don't know any others that claim to worship Saints other than the Catholics. I don't worship Paul or ANY of the Saints. I admire their examples, (most of them at least), and thank God for their being allowed to offer His Word, but I do not worship any of them. And I don't recall any of them allowing others to worship them even when it was offered. Not when they were alive at least.

I caught this thread late, and I try to respond to only one issue at a time so it helps with responses, so sorry about so many post in a row, anyway. I will repeat what I said in my last post. Catholics do not worship Mary or ANY Saint so I am glad that I can join you in saying I too, do not worship Paul or ANY of the Saints. I worship the Father, Son and Holy Spirit one god in three persons. THAT is CATHOLIC teaching, and anyone who claims otherwise is doing nothing but spewing lies.

 

[AVBunyan]

Now, let's look at Paul. Persecuting the Christians because he was a 'good' Jew. Christ appeared to this man and he spent the rest of his life suffering every kind of hardship thinkable to spread the Words of Christ until finally murdered for it. Quite a man, this Paul.

And Jesus MUST have seen something PRETTY SPECIAL in this man, Paul. For Paul was NOT a man sent to spread the Word to his OWN people, so much, as he was CHOSEN to spread it to ALL PEOPLE.

Nicely put Imagican - Christ himself told us o follow Paul for Christ is the WORD and Paul told us to go to him first in this age if we are to have understanding in all things.

Did I say ignore the other parts of the Bible including the Gosples? No, I didn't say that - some of believe I do. Do I read and believe all he Bible? Yes, I read it all - I'm in Genesis right now.

But...but...

If you ignore Paul:

1. You miss justification by faith.
2. You miss understanding about the resurrected Saviour.
3. You won’t know where you will spend eternity.
4. You will not know whether or not you will go into the tribulation or not.
5. You will not understand you position in Christ.
6. You will not how to scripturally study the scriptures.
7. You will miss the gospel.
8. You will have no understanding of baptism.
9. You will not know whether you are a Jew, Gentile, or the body of Christ.
10. You will no understand God’s eternal the purpose the church, which is his body.
11. You will not what books are for you doctrinally.
12. You will not understand forgiveness.
13. You will take what is meant for Israel and apply it to you.
14. You will be confused on the gifts.
15. You will no know whether or no there really is a gap between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2.

Bottom line – you want understanding in all things – then….start with Paul. For many of you folks here you start and end with the Gospels as your final authority, especially those red letters.

2 Tim 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

God bless

 

[Vic C.]

How does the Catholic Church not teach we are saved by Grace?

A valid question, I suppose, but off topic to the subject at hand. You can check out several threads on Mary in the "Apologetics" Forum.

Peace,
Vic

 

[AVBunyan]

How does the Catholic Church not teach we are saved by Grace?

I think if you search this forumand google you will find the official Council of Trent documents posted saying what Rome believes and it ain't grace alone. :o

God bless

 

[SputnikBoy]

Spunt,

I, for one, follow NOTHING 'main-stream' as you put it. My understanding comes from my simple understanding of the Word. Regardless of how simple I am, it's what I understand that I will be judged by. My relationship with Christ and His Father can't be taught to me by 'others'. It's my relationship and it's up to me whether it flourish or become stagnant.

So, I will take what you stated to mean that; since I am totally aware of the fallacy of the Catholic faith I am 'main-stream'. So be it.

Otherwise, I offer that ALL organized religion that I have encountered suffers from much of the same problem: Man-made tradition instead of a healthy relationship with God through His Son. Allowing men to usurp the authority of Christ and the apostles for their own personal gain. God and Christ are enough for me, my friend, and my hopes are that one day it can be enough for all that I might call brothers or sisters, including you.

Your buddy

MEC

Thanks for the gentle tone of your post, Imagican, but which post of mine were you responding to? I only have one post on this thread and that was aimed primarily at AV.

 

[thessalonian]

Why don't catholics parade around with statues of Paul? Afterall, without Paul, we wouldn't have the NT today. And for that matter, why not carry statues of Peter too? We wouldn't have his epistles either without him. Then in no time, the catholics will look just like the Greek and Roman temples and forums where people are elevated above human status. Since they give people the credit for God's work, then instead of praying only to their Father in heaven, they can pray to all these people too, thus taking their time away from their Lord. Then they would really have support from the pagans!

You speak as if you know the answer, displaying your ignorance in asking the question. You don't really care what I say and have no desire to learn why we do what we do. We do not honor Mary or any of the saints expressly because of them. We honor them because of what GOD HAS DONE IN AND THROUGH THEM! Praise be to God. We do honor Paul. His name is on many of our churches and there are many statues of him. Paul did great things because of Christ working in him. Paul tells people to imitate him. He tells them to imitate Christ. He speaks in honor of Abraham and Moses. Yet if we speak the name of Mary or Paul or Peter we are pagans. If we consider the lives of saints, including Paul we are worshipping them. If we honor a Pope it is worship. You people don't have any definitions. Your winging it and making up things as you go, espcially to make points against Catholics.

Blessings

 

[thessalonian]

How does the Catholic Church not teach we are saved by Grace?

I think if you search this forumand google you will find the official Council of Trent documents posted saying what Rome believes and it ain't grace alone. :o

God bless

FIND THE CANON THAT SAYS IT"S "NOT BY GRACE ALONE" AV or be a liar. Quote them. Do you quote them saying something that is not what you say, then applying your own definition to it and twisting it. There is no statement by trent that says we are not saved by grace alone. We are saved by grace alone. The problem is faith alone.

 

[Imagican]

The problem is not with Paul but the fact that much of his writings have been misconstrued by man to fit with mainstream Christian tradition. And, a number of people on this forum DO deify Paul in a manner similar to the Catholics and their deification of Mary. You, AV, may not worship Paul but don't claim to speak for everyone. "We" implies a mainstream Christian clique where one can assume to speak for the other since all are of like mind. Do any of you 'Spirit-filled Christians' ever think for yourselves?


I was referring to this mentioned above. Expecially the part about thinking for oneself. Not that I took it personal. Just thought I'd respond is all.

 

[Imagican]

How does the Catholic Church not teach we are saved by Grace?

I think if you search this forumand google you will find the official Council of Trent documents posted saying what Rome believes and it ain't grace alone. :o

God bless

FIND THE CANON THAT SAYS IT"S "NOT BY GRACE ALONE" AV or be a liar. Quote them. Do you quote them saying something that is not what you say, then applying your own definition to it and twisting it. There is no statement by trent that says we are not saved by grace alone. We are saved by grace alone. The problem is faith alone.

I know that you directed this post at AV, but if you don't mind.............

I thought that about 1/2 of the Catholic 'canon' taught that anyone that accepted this idea was to be considered antithema. Maybe i misunderstand, but, I thought I had read that anyone that taught, 'by grace alone' was considered by Catholic doctrine to be an heretic. Guess I just don't understand what is meant by what I've read.

I would assume that ANYTHING offered that requires MORE than 'the grace of God', would be considered just that; taking more than the simple gift offered. Now let me ask you Thess, are you telling me that the Catholic church does teach 'grace alone'?

Grace is 'gift' correct? But I know that the Catholic church only considers those worthy capable of receiving this gift. That if, let's say, I were to consider myself to be 'saved' by the 'grace of God', yet did not accept the Catholic 'doctrine', I would NOT be considered 'saved' by a Catholic. So obviously, grace alone, is not capable of saving ANYONE other than a Catholic.

Now, what differentiates Catholics from any one else that claim to accept Christ and the gift offered. Doctrine. The Catholic doctrine itself states that if I don't accept it then I'm not saved. So the grace of God ISN'T enough in the doctrine of Catholics. I have to follow all the 'laws' of the Catholic faith, or I'm an heretic, (unsaved). So, 'grace alone' is NOT enough and NOT what the Catholic church teaches. I am only capable of receiving 'grace' if I do it 'your way', (following ALL your doctrine).

Is this correct?

 

[Vic C.]

You all get a warning for misquoting me. My post wasn't blank! :o

:P

:-D

;-)