Bible Study Why is Psalm 41 about Jesus?

[Randy]

Citation needed. What passages of the Old Testament taught the betrayal of the Messiah?

Zechariah 11:12–13 12 I told them, “If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it.” So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. 13 And the Lord said to me, “Throw it to the potter”—the handsome price at which they valued me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them to the potter at the house of the Lord

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

I think the question you're asking assumes that it can only be one person who is in view in Psalm 41. But the Psalm actually speaks, at certain points, of two people simultaneously: David and Christ. This is the case in verse 9. Mostly, though, the Psalm is about David, which is evident in verse 4, which, for the reason you pointed out, couldn't be about Jesus.

Why would this be the case? It seems like arbitrarily choosing random passages from the TaNaKh and applying them to the events from the New Testament, while disregarding the fact that they are out of context.

One could very well pick random passages from the events narrated about Buddha and apply them as prophecies about Christ.

That's not how prophecies are supposed to work. Prophecies are spoken in future tense. God is outside of time, but He understands how we perceive time.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Zechariah 11:12–13 12 I told them, “If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it.” So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. 13 And the Lord said to me, “Throw it to the potter”—the handsome price at which they valued me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them to the potter at the house of the Lord

That verse doesn't say anything about a betrayed Messiah. The chapter is not even talking about the Messiah. That's the prophet doing what God commanded him to do.

 

[for_his_glory]

Why would this be the case? It seems like arbitrarily choosing random passages from the TaNaKh and applying them to the events from the New Testament, while disregarding the fact that they are out of context.

One could very well pick random passages from the events narrated about Buddha and apply them as prophecies about Christ.

That's not how prophecies are supposed to work. Prophecies are spoken in future tense. God is outside of time, but He understands how we perceive time.

The OT from Genesis to Malachi foreshadow that of Christ birth, death and resurrection as there are around 300 prophecies in the OT about Jesus.

 

[KV-44-v1]

The whole entire Bible is somehow about Jesus. It is literally God's Word. Jesus is God!
upon careful reading, Genesis seems to have foreshadowed Jesus. Jesus was the "Last Adam."

 

[JLB]

In John 13:18, Jesus says: "I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill this passage of Scripture: 'He who shared my bread has turned against me.'". The only passage of Scripture, that we currently know of, containing a statement similar to that is Psalm 41:9, which says: "Even my close friend whom I trusted, the one who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me."

If this isn't the passage that Jesus was referring to, if there is some Scripture that has been lost or that we are not aware of, then this question should be reconsidered.

However, if the passage that Jesus refers to is indeed Psalm 41:9, please explain to me why or how the Psalm could possibly refer to Him, considering that in verse 4 of the same Psalm, the psalmist says: "I said, 'Have mercy on me, Lord; heal me, for I have sinned against you'". Jesus was sinless, so why would we assume that verse 9 is a prophecy about Jesus while verse 4, which seems to be referring to the same person, is not a prophecy about Jesus?

David was speaking prophetically about himself but also the Lord speaking through him was also referring to Himself.


This is all throughout the Old Testament.


The Spirit of Christ spoke through the Old Testament prophets, testifying about Himself.


Read Psalm 22.


The very words Jesus spoke on the cross came out of the mouth of David who thought he was speaking about himself.

 

[Tenchi]

Why would this be the case? It seems like arbitrarily choosing random passages from the TaNaKh and applying them to the events from the New Testament, while disregarding the fact that they are out of context.

It was Jesus who indicated that the verse spoke of himself (John 13:18); there was no arbitrary choosing on the part of Christians centuries after the Bible was completed to make the verse prophetic.

One could very well pick random passages from the events narrated about Buddha and apply them as prophecies about Christ.

Well, again, it was Jesus who applied Psalm 41:9 to himself (and to Judas).

That's not how prophecies are supposed to work. Prophecies are spoken in future tense. God is outside of time, but He understands how we perceive time.

Yes. I know. See above.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

The OT from Genesis to Malachi foreshadow that of Christ birth, death and resurrection as there are around 300 prophecies in the OT about Jesus.

If they don't have the form of prophecies, how can they be prophecies? They are just random passages taken out of context and applied to narratives from the New Testament. There is no clear prophetic message about a crucified Messiah anywhere in the TaNaKh.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

It was Jesus who indicated that the verse spoke of himself (John 13:18); there was no arbitrary choosing on the part of Christians centuries after the Bible was completed to make the verse prophetic.



Well, again, it was Jesus who applied Psalm 41:9 to himself (and to Judas).



Yes. I know. See above.

Jesus didn't leave any writings. All the Gospels were written decades after He left Earth.

 

[for_his_glory]

If they don't have the form of prophecies, how can they be prophecies? They are just random passages taken out of context and applied to narratives from the New Testament. There is no clear prophetic message about a crucified Messiah anywhere in the TaNaKh.

I can't make you see that which is prophetic in the OT as only the Holy Spirit can give you the understandings of the prophecies in the OT that many have so far been fulfilled in that of Christ birth, death and resurrection as when Christ returns then all will be fulfilled.

 

[for_his_glory]

Jesus didn't leave any writings. All the Gospels were written decades after He left Earth.

2Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Tim 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

What the Prophets and Apostles wrote was all inspired by God to be written as even God gave Jesus what to speak and to do, John 12:49-50. Many things in the Bible are literal and also Spiritual as the Holy Spirit teaches us all things.

 

[Tenchi]

Jesus didn't leave any writings. All the Gospels were written decades after He left Earth.

The entire Bible is God's word to us, it's writing inspired and superintended by Him. So, then, Jesus, who is God, is the ultimate Source of all that we read in Scripture.

In any case, the Gospels record what Jesus said concerning Psalm 41:9. What makes you a better judge, two millennia removed from the event, of the veracity of Christ's words than those who wrote of them within, as you say, mere decades of their being spoken? John was actually an eyewitness of those things about which he wrote and so, of the two of you, far, far better positioned to say what Jesus did and didn't actually declare about Psalm 41:9.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

I can't make you see that which is prophetic in the OT as only the Holy Spirit can give you the understandings of the prophecies in the OT that many have so far been fulfilled in that of Christ birth, death and resurrection as when Christ returns then all will be fulfilled.

That sounds like a copout. Why would God speak clearly for all to understand during the Old Testament, but suddenly in the New Testament, it's all encrypted, scales over eyes, Holy Spirit required and all these excuses?
If God is all-powerful and He wanted all to be saved, then He would have given clear prophecies that would be uninterpretable and incorruptible.

The entire Bible is God's word to us, it's writing inspired and superintended by Him. So, then, Jesus, who is God, is the ultimate Source of all that we read in Scripture.

In any case, the Gospels record what Jesus said concerning Psalm 41:9. What makes you a better judge, two millennia removed from the event, of the veracity of Christ's words than those who wrote of them within, as you say, mere decades of their being spoken? John was actually an eyewitness of those things about which he wrote and so, of the two of you, far, far better positioned to say what Jesus did and didn't actually declare about Psalm 41:9.

The Gospel authors are all anonymous. The names given to the Gospels do no exist on the earliest manuscripts, but were attributed by the Church fathers during the first centuries.

Also, Jesus could have declared anything He wanted. My point still stands. If you claim that the Psalm in question talks about Jesus, and the Psalm in question states this: "I said, 'Have mercy on me, Lord; heal me, for I have sinned against you'", then you are left with the problem of explaining why the Psalm claims that Jesus sinned.

 

[Tenchi]

The Gospel authors are all anonymous.

No, they're not. They're called "The Gospel of Matthew," "The Gospel of Luke," "The Gospel of Mark," and "The Gospel of John."

The names given to the Gospels do no exist on the earliest manuscripts, but were attributed by the Church fathers during the first centuries.

I'm not aware of any council of "Church Fathers" that declared that the four Gospels would be attributed to so-and-so, irregardless of the actual writers of them. If the "Fathers" had done this, their authorial attribution of the Gospels to less prominent figures in the Early Church would have been a very odd thing to do. It seems far more reasonable to me to think that the names attached to the four Gospels identify who actually wrote them. This thinking is supported by the widespread and enduring consensus within the Church over who wrote which Gospel.

Each of the scrolls on which the four Gospels were written would have borne a tag (Gk. sittybos) indicating the name of the writer of each, as was the common practice at the time of their writing. For libraries of scrolls, these served as helpful identifiers, like a book title written on the cover of a book is today. Attached to the various original Gospels and their copies, these scroll-tags bearing the name of the writer of the scrolls would have eliminated any debate over who penned which Gospel. And so it is that such debate did not exist within the Early Church.

Also, the various Church councils that set forth the canon of the NT did so in recognition of what the Early Church had very naturally and organically settled upon as the canon of Scripture. These councils did not choose the NT canon, then, but only formally-acknowledged what was already generally-accepted within the Church as NT Scripture - including the four Gospels.

Also, Jesus could have declared anything He wanted.

??? So? Is what is possible also probable? Is what Jesus could have done what he actually did?

My point still stands.

I don't think it does. See above.

If you claim that the Psalm in question talks about Jesus, and the Psalm in question states this: "I said, 'Have mercy on me, Lord; heal me, for I have sinned against you'", then you are left with the problem of explaining why the Psalm claims that Jesus sinned.

Yes, if you make such an unwarranted claim, I suppose such a problem may result. But I don't, so your problem is no problem at all, for me.

 

[hawkman]

There is no clear prophetic message about a crucified Messiah anywhere in the TaNaKh.

Messianic Prophecies In The Tanakh

 

[for_his_glory]

That sounds like a copout. Why would God speak clearly for all to understand during the Old Testament, but suddenly in the New Testament, it's all encrypted, scales over eyes, Holy Spirit required and all these excuses?
If God is all-powerful and He wanted all to be saved, then He would have given clear prophecies that would be uninterpretable and incorruptible.

Have you been Spiritually born again from above and filled with the Holy Spirit? If so then you need to pray and have the Holy Spirit open your Spiritual eyes and ears as you pray and ask the Holy Spirit to teach you. John 3:5-7; John 14:26.

There are no cop-outs if you are seriously wanting to know truth that only the Holy Spirit can teach us as man without the Holy Spirit working through them can teach us nothing. The prophecies given in the OT have and are being fulfilled through Christ Jesus until the day He returns and then all things will be fulfilled. If you notice many of the prophecies of the OT refer to the latter days as being future events as they unfold.

1John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

 

[for_his_glory]

Messianic Prophecies In The Tanakh

Can't be any clearer then that. Thank you for sharing that site.