Why is there no action??

[seekandlisten]

A point was raised in another thread a while back that I've thought about a little bit. The point raised was in regards to Islam and why an authoritive figure doesn't stand up and speak out against the atrocities being committed in the name of their religion by the fundamentalist extremists. I personally think the media would rather promote the 'dark' side to the western world as that is what our 'news' usually consists of. Anyways, that is not the point.

In all this talk these days of militant religious groups, scandals in the RCC and so on, why aren't people speaking up? For instance, does anybody support the Westboro Baptist Church and its agenda? I would hope not, but they are part of the problem facing your religion as to why those on the outside look at it very skeptically.

Now in regards to the point raised about Islam not speaking out against those that are promoting violence by claiming it's what their God wants, why aren't Christians speaking up against the Westboro Baptist Church or Pat Robertson's comments as well as many others? I was highly surprised to go to this website, http://www.petitiononline.com/thewiz/petition.html, and find only 9,822 signatures on it. For a country that's supposedly 80% Christian population this alarms me as to whether this kind of behaviour is endorsed.

Just a little rant so don't get offended. I would however encourage you to sign the petition.

cheers

 

[Caroline H]

...In all this talk these days of militant religious groups, scandals in the RCC and so on, why aren't people speaking up? For instance, does anybody support the Westboro Baptist Church and its agenda? I would hope not, but they are part of the problem facing your religion as to why those on the outside look at it very skeptically.

Now in regards to the point raised about Islam not speaking out against those that are promoting violence by claiming it's what their God wants, why aren't Christians speaking up against the Westboro Baptist Church or Pat Robertson's comments as well as many others? I was highly surprised to go to this website, http://www.petitiononline.com/thewiz/petition.html, and find only 9,822 signatures on it. For a country that's supposedly 80% Christian population this alarms me as to whether this kind of behaviour is endorsed.

Just a little rant so don't get offended. I would however encourage you to sign the petition.

80% Christian??? Not hardly Maybe a small percentage of those claiming to be Christians are truly saved, but most just don't get it.

I believe there have been Christians stand up against the Wesboro folks, and against the scandals in the RCC. It doesn't have to be some organized conference of all Christian denominations denouncing these things for it to be known that true Christianity neither endorses nor produces such behaviour.

Also, about signing that petition... I wouldn't be surprised that not many people have signed it for two reasons: One being how on earth would one ever find that petition unless they were specifically searching for it? Two, you can't just shut down a website because you don't like what it is promoting...otherwise we would be able to shut down porn sites and racist sites as well.

 

[seekandlisten]

I believe there have been Christians stand up against the Wesboro folks, and against the scandals in the RCC. It doesn't have to be some organized conference of all Christian denominations denouncing these things for it to be known that true Christianity neither endorses nor produces such behaviour.

I understand your point here I was just saying it's things like this that causes the credibility of religion to come into question. Especially these days.

Also, about signing that petition... I wouldn't be surprised that not many people have signed it for two reasons: One being how on earth would one ever find that petition unless they were specifically searching for it? Two, you can't just shut down a website because you don't like what it is promoting...otherwise we would be able to shut down porn sites and racist sites as well. [/color]

Well, I came across the petition without looking for it so I'm not sure how to answer that one for you. I would have assumed people would have promoted the site but maybe that's just my thinking. I also live in Canada where that kind of thing isn't really an issue, at least in my area.

I do see your point with shutting down the web site based on content though. To me it was more of raising awareness that no one is going to tolerate that kind of behavior, and for the Christian community I would assume they wouldn't want that type of behavior endorsed by their religion.

I like to think we've progressed beyond spreading hate and prejudice. I guess we have to take the good with the bad though.

cheers

 

[Caroline H]

I do see your point with shutting down the web site based on content though. To me it was more of raising awareness that no one is going to tolerate that kind of behavior, and for the Christian community I would assume they wouldn't want that type of behavior endorsed by their religion.

I agree with you here. However, I wouldn't think that people would assume that Christianity endorses these things just because some professing "Christians" do them. But that may just be me being naive about how the world views Christianity. Honestly, all one has to do is read through the Bible a bit to see that this behaviour is not Christian.

I like to think we've progressed beyond spreading hate and prejudice. I guess we have to take the good with the bad though.

cheers

Well, I'm sure we'd all like to think that as well, but reality shows us everyday that humanity has definitely not progressed beyond spreading hate and prejudice. It isn't limited to just a handful of communities or areas either, it is widespread and has been since the fall of humanity. As a Christian I believe it will not change until Christ returns, but what we can do is try to influence those around us and use resources available to us to help those who need it.

 

[randon]

Now in regards to the point raised about Islam not speaking out against those that are promoting violence by claiming it's what their God wants, why aren't Christians speaking up against the Westboro Baptist Church or Pat Robertson's comments as well as many others?

There are a great many Christians who speak out against the WBC, Pat Robertson, and others. And here in the United States there are many Muslims who condemn the violence and terrorist acts done in the name of Islam.

 

[Mike]

seekandlisten, it was me (probably) who you are referring to. Your Muslim and Christian examples are not comparable in my opinion. My only point was that, given the world-wide terrorism, I would think that Muslim leading figures would want to prevent extremists from representing their faith to the world. To many people they do represent it to one degree or another.

Randon said he's heard people in the U.S. condemn terrorism. That's true. But if these were Christian terrorists, I would expect a loud and clear condemnation from the heart of the Christian Church. And I'm sure it would come from key public figures if it was. We don't have a central point for the Christian faith as Islam does.

 

[seekandlisten]

seekandlisten, it was me (probably) who you are referring to. Your Muslim and Christian examples are not comparable in my opinion. My only point was that, given the world-wide terrorism, I would think that Muslim leading figures would want to prevent extremists from representing their faith to the world. To many people they do represent it to one degree or another.

Hey mjjcb,

Yes it was you who made the comment. It just came to my mind when I came across an article in relation to the WBC with a link to that petition site. It was just in the lack of signatures for a worthy cause that I questioned. My point of view on this situation will lead to a whole new conversation so I'll leave it as this. I wasn't intending to present this as a 'point' against Christianity or religion just that it's something that needs 'awareness' and the petition seemed like a way to do it.

Randon said he's heard people in the U.S. condemn terrorism. That's true. But if these were Christian terrorists, I would expect a loud and clear condemnation from the heart of the Christian Church. And I'm sure it would come from key public figures if it was.

I made the comment earlier as well that I think the media plays a role in the 'speaking out' of the Muslim community. If one looks they can find Muslims speaking out against the terrorists claiming to be a part of their religion.

We don't have a central point for the Christian faith as Islam does.

I'm not sure what you mean by this? If anybody were to make the case I would assume it would be the Baptists who would want to distance their name from WBC.

cheers

 

[jasoncran]

there's no place ie mecca. if one were to nuke mecca and make it unlivable then islam would be done.

 

[seekandlisten]

there's no place ie mecca. if one were to nuke mecca and make it unlivable then islam would be done.

Sorry jason but I have to address this post as unnecessary. It's the equivalent of saying if someone nuked Jerusalem Judaism would be done or nuked the Vatican and Christianity would be done. Not a solution to the problem or relevant to this thread.

cheers

 

[Caroline H]

I'm not sure what you mean by this? If anybody were to make the case I would assume it would be the Baptists who would want to distance their name from WBC.

Well, do you know how many different denominations have "Baptist" in their name? That is one of the big problems with the church today, we have so many different view points that some have felt it necessary to "branch out" into their own denomination. So, there very well may be different denominational leaders speaking out against it (I know that Southern Baptists have denounced it), but there won't be any centralized "Baptist" convention or leader officially speaking out, because there isn't one.

 

[jasoncran]

there's no place ie mecca. if one were to nuke mecca and make it unlivable then islam would be done.

Sorry jason but I have to address this post as unnecessary. It's the equivalent of saying if someone nuked Jerusalem Judaism would be done or nuked the Vatican and Christianity would be done. Not a solution to the problem or relevant to this thread.

cheers

you asked why christianity has no central to their faith? i stated this to show that inorder perform one five pillars of islam. if able one must perform the haj to mecca. without doing this you arent guarenteed a way heavan. btw jerusalem had been lost for yrs, yet the hebrew culture lived. the vatican is neither the source of the christian faith nor has it ever been.

 

[Nick]

It's things like the WBC that help spread the hate and other negative thoughts about Christianity, and confuse this with it's actual message. IMO we should be speaking out very strongly against this kind of behaviour. We don't seem to have extremes like the WBC in Australia, but whenever it gets a mention here (and it does a few times a year) there is outcry about Christians hating fags. I think to say that things like the WBC don't affect the portrayal of Christianity is a misjudgement, and us as steadfast Bible-based Christians should be speaking out against this kind of stuff.

I think you raise a good point, seekandlisten.

It's at this point that I would cue Gabe.
I miss Gabe.

 

[jasoncran]

ah those jihad reports that she used to post.

to hell with the wbc.

 

[Caroline H]

Jason, Gabe is a man...

 

[Nick]

Jason, Gabe is a man...

:biglol :rolling
It's amazing how many people thought that he was a she.

 

[jasoncran]

Jason, Gabe is a man...

:biglol :rolling
It's amazing how many people thought that he was a she.

i'm well aware that some cultures use gabriel as a man's name, some how i was informed via pm with gabe of the gender. i made the mistake of assuming a male.

i may be wrong as that was long time ago, i even went look up the profile to be sure. nothing on mens or women.

in hebrew gabriel is only a man's name.

 

[Mike]

there's no place ie mecca. if one were to nuke mecca and make it unlivable then islam would be done.

Jason, I caught your post just as I had to run out for a dinner engagement. Your point that Islam has a central location is what I was getting at, but I have to question the rest of your message. Are you advocating that Mecca is actually nuked? I hope your point was only that they have a central location, and Christianity doesn't. You know we're on good terms, so I'm not spewing venom at you, but this post was beyond extreme in my opinion. Even if it was just to say that if... I don't even know what to make of it, but I think you should take it back. Bombing an Elcaida (I can't spell that word) is one thing. Merely mentioning taking out a city is, regardless of the faith of the people, is horrific given all the civilian people who would be killed.

It's the equivalent of saying if someone nuked Jerusalem Judaism would be done or nuked the Vatican and Christianity would be done.

seekandlisten, we've gone back and forth enough to know where each other are coming from. I know your problems and issues with Christianity. You know I am not a person that separates Catholics from the Body of Christ. And I know there are some Christians that adamantly disagree with me. But their Vatican is the "capital city" of the Catholic church, not of Christianity as a whole. There is no central location for Christianity, and no one person can speak on behalf of it to criticize people or churches that act recklessly.

With regard to the WBC, it is most definitely a horrible blot on the Christian church. This is similar to Christians acting in the name of Christianity to kill abortionists or bomb their clinics. I have heard major criticism to these events. You say you were shocked that so few people have signed this petition you saw on line. This is likely because many people don't know about it. I didn't until you posted it. So you can't use that as a gauge to determine how sharply and wide spread condemnation of their behavior is.

The Muslims have high ranking clerics and imams who could speak on behalf of them to denounce radical extremism among their own people. It could be that they are not covered by the media, but as liberal as the American media is, my guess is if these clerics did furiously denounce terrorism, we would have heard about it. "If" they are truly against terrorism, they should make this clear. That was my point in this and the Muslim thread that you started.

 

[jasoncran]

i was making a point, by saying that the city of mecca was to be destroyed, islam would be undone. they fight over jerusalem and kill for a darn rock that supposedly was the one that touched the horse of mohammed.when he ascended to heaven.

dont take this as advocating violence or wanton destruction of civilians.

i'm glad i dont openly talk about the effects of ptsd and what the lord had to deal with in my recent healing.

i would be condenmed for asking other to pray for something they see no problem in watching as entertainment that i have to see in person and feel less then human for doing my job.

 

[seekandlisten]

It's the equivalent of saying if someone nuked Jerusalem Judaism would be done or nuked the Vatican and Christianity would be done.

seekandlisten, we've gone back and forth enough to know where each other are coming from. I know your problems and issues with Christianity. You know I am not a person that separates Catholics from the Body of Christ. And I know there are some Christians that adamantly disagree with me. But their Vatican is the "capital city" of the Catholic church, not of Christianity as a whole. There is no central location for Christianity, and no one person can speak on behalf of it to criticize people or churches that act recklessly.

I guess my point was missed. When I compared the statement to Vatican City or Jerusalem was to show that it had no relevance. In the same way Christianity would not fall apart if the Vatican was nuked, those whose faith lies in Islam would not be shaken either. It's safe to say that if your faith rests on a city it is not faith at all and Islam is obviously far from relying on a city, maybe to some, but Muslims here in Canada and the US I would assume many of them have no intentions of making a 'trip' to Mecca. To sum it up, 'nuking' Mecca would only encourage Muslim extremists to retaliate, and it would be the Muslim moderates left to wonder why someone would do that and only reaffirm their faith that those outside their faith are the enemies. Like I said earlier the statement was uncalled for and only promotes more violence.

 

[seekandlisten]

On a different note, Nate Phelps is set to speak coming up April 24th in his hometown. It will be filmed and put out as a documentary coming up. Here is one link for info.

http://www.examiner.com/x-15648-Kansas- ... ansas_City

I was unsure of what link would be accepted here as Dawkin's site is promoting it as well as LGTB sites so it was hard to find an acceptable link. But this should do for those interested.

cheers