Why many stumble.. Amillennialism and Replacement Theology

[Eventide]

Perhaps it's because the self proclaimed one true church taught them that there is no future kingdom for Israel.. and that the church of God is now Israel..

 

[Eventide]

For some reason (again - most likely because the self proclaimed one true church says so), many do exactly what the Apostle to the Gentiles warns them NOT to do.. and that's ignore the mystery pertaining to Israel.. how that they're blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in.. and because of this.. the exact thing which Paul says will happen, does happen.. they become wise in their own conceits..

Christ is still buildng His church today.. right here, right now.. calling out a people for His name (Christians) while Israel remains blinded in part... although in the end, the Deliverer shall come from Sion and He will turn ungodliness from JACOB.. yes Jacob.. the one who wrestled with God all night and in the morning (of that Day) the sun rose upon him..

Paul (the Apostle to the Gentiles) tells us that the night is far spent and that the Day is at hand.. the Day of the Lord, the Day of Jesus Christ.. and we know that when He does come that His saints will come with Him... and we know that then He will sit upon the throne of His glory.. and His Apostles will also sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.. Matthew 19 makes this perfectly clear.. many simply can't accept it though.. they can't get past God delivering Israel in the end..

This is why Preterism makes no sense at all either.. because they all teach that the DESTRUCTION of ISRAEL was the time of the end.. whereas the reality is that the DELIVERANCE of the nation of Israel will be in the time of the end.. even though the entire world comes against them.. God will deliver them in that Day..

For some reason (or no reason at all) many hate the Jews.. and can't deal with the simple biblical fact that God will deliver them in the end.

 

[Drew]

Christ is still buildng His church today.. right here, right now.. calling out a people for His name (Christians) while Israel remains blinded in part... although in the end, the Deliverer shall come from Sion and He will turn ungodliness from JACOB.. yes Jacob.. the one who wrestled with God all night and in the morning (of that Day) the sun rose upon him..

I am prepared to argue - not simply claim, but argue - that the Bible predicts no wholesale large scale restoration of ethnic Israel, despite what Romans 11 appears to say.

I cannot do this right now, but here is a glimpse of the shape of that argument - we have clear precedent for Paul using the term "Israel" (examples: Galatians 6 and Romans 9) to denote not ethnic Israel, but instead the Jew + Gentile church.

Let's see where the actual arguments go, and I would suggest that readers carefully note the difference between simply making a statement and making a statement and supporting it with an actual argument.

This promises to be an interesting thread.

 

[Eventide]

I am prepared to argue - not simply claim, but argue - that the Bible predicts no wholesale large scale restoration of ethnic Israel, despite what Romans 11 appears to say.

I cannot do this right now, but here is a glimpse of the shape of that argument - we have clear precedent for Paul using the term "Israel" (examples: Galatians 6 and Romans 9) to denote not ethnic Israel, but instead the Jew + Gentile church.

Let's see where the actual arguments go, and I would suggest that readers carefully note the difference between simply making a statement and making a statement and supporting it with an actual argument.

This promises to be an interesting thread.

At least you can admit that you embrace amillennialism and replacement theolgy.. that's a good start.

 

[Drew]

At least you can admit that you embrace amillennialism and replacement theolgy.. that's a good start.

I most certainly do not embrace "replacement" theology, at least as I understand the term.

As for "amillenialism", I do not even know what the term means.

I would advise readers to be wary of labels.

I will get back to this.

 

[Eventide]

I most certainly do not embrace "replacement" theology, at least as I understand the term.

You believe that the church of God is Israel.. is that correct ? I agree that labels can be vague and misleading although it typically refers to those who believe that the nation of Israel has no future and that the church of God is the Israel of God.. so in that sense it 'replaces' the nation of Israel.

Some call it 'Continuation Theology' where it means that there was always one church throughout the OT and the NT.. either way, its basic pemise is that there is no longer any future restoration for the NATION OF ISRAEL and that all things pertain to the church of God which they also refer to as "Spiritual Israel"..

As for "amillenialism", I do not even know what the term means.

Amillennialism is the belief that there is NO future and literal thousand year reign of Christ on earth, including the restoration of Israel.. but rather that it refers to a long period of time and includes this present time.. ie, we're in the millennial kingdom of Christ RIGHT NOW..

Regardless of the fact that you might be ignorant of the terms.. your beliefs certainly fit the framework of these theologies.

I would advise readers to be wary of labels.

I will get back to this.

For the record, two of the largest denominations in Christendom are Amillennial.. the Catholic church and the Orthodox church.. although there are also many Protestant denominations which embrace Amillennialism.. ie, Calvinism is predominatly Amillennial with respect to eschatology.

 

[Drew]

You believe that the church of God is Israel.. is that correct ?

I believe that some Pauline uses of the term "Israel" refer to the church, but that other uses refer to "ethnic Israel".

I agree that labels can be vague and misleading although it typically refers to those who believe that the nation of Israel has no future and that the church of God is the Israel of God.. so in that sense it 'replaces' the nation of Israel.

I believe that ethnic Israel has no specific future - as of the cross, there is no one "race" or "ethnic group" or "nation" that has any special status whatsoever. But I do not believe I fall into "replacement theology" since, and I want to be crystal clear about this, I believe that all promises really made to ethnic Israel were not fulfilled for ethnic Israel. So there is no sense that ethnic Israel is being "replaced" - God has fulfilled all the promises He made to her.

.. either way, its basic pemise is that there is no longer any future restoration for the NATION OF ISRAEL and that all things pertain to the church of God which they also refer to as "Spiritual Israel"..

Well, whatever you want to call it, I do indeed embrace the position you have expressed here.

Amillennialism is the belief that there is NO future and literal thousand year reign of Christ on earth, including the restoration of Israel.. but rather that it refers to a long period of time and includes this present time.. ie, we're in the millennial kingdom of Christ RIGHT NOW..

Well then, I guess that I am indeed an "amillenialist".

 

[Eventide]

I believe that some Pauline uses of the term "Israel" refer to the church, but that other uses refer to "ethnic Israel".

How do you determine which is which ?

Israel is JACOB.. and his twelve sons by which the twelve tribes were named..

I believe that ethnic Israel has no specific future - as of the cross, there is no one "race" or "ethnic group" or "nation" that has any special status whatsoever.

I believe that the nation of Israel will be restored to its rightful place as 'Head of the nations' and that they will be SAVED exactly the same way as everyone else.. by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and by realizing that He is their Savior and King.. but as the LORD says.. the FIRST shall be LAST and the LAST shall be first.. He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.. in that order.

But I do not believe I fall into "replacement theology" since, and I want to be crystal clear about this, I believe that all promises really made to ethnic Israel were not fulfilled for ethnic Israel. So there is no sense that ethnic Israel is being "replaced" - God has fulfilled all the promises He made to her.

Again, it's replacing the nation of Israel.. you're literally counting all things promised to them to be applicable to the church of God.. so in that respect it clearly replaces one with the other.

Well, whatever you want to call it, I do indeed embrace the position you have expressed here.


Well then, I guess that I am indeed an "amillenialist".

Yes, and IMO, it is perhaps the most significant stumblingblock in Christendom today.. ignoring the mystery pertaining to Israel and failing to make a distinction between the Israel of God (an earthly entity) and the church of God which enjoys its citizenship in heaven..

If I have told you earthly things and ye believe not, then how shall ye believe if I tell you heavenly things.. ? ?

 

[Drew]

How do you determine which is which ?

Israel is JACOB.. and his twelve sons by which the twelve tribes were named..

One determines the intended meaning through context:

When, in Romans 9, Paul writes that "For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel", we conclude, from what he goes on to the say, that the first reference to Israel here is a reference to the church.

And there are other examples. I think the evidence is clear: Paul has two "Israels" in his set of concepts - one of them the nation of Israel, the other the Jew+Gentile church.

 

[jasoncran]

sigh, the idea of being in isreal so to speak was by fiath not by birth, when we as christians come to christ(those who are gentile) are grafted in.

eventide you failed to say the jews also recieve the damnation first than the gentiles. and also in the blessing. what i have siad doesnt negate your point in that some of isreal will be saved and also there will be restoration of promise but how and when and what that will be like is a mystery. as if isreal (of which some say we jews who come to christ arent a part of and i beg to differ) is restored what of circumission?

i dont see the need for it but the land was for ever given to abraham.and we are in the times of the gentiles. jerusalem is still trodden under foot and the jews neither have full control of that city.

 

[Eventide]

One determines the intended meaning through context:

When, in Romans 9, Paul writes that "For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel", we conclude, from what he goes on to the say, that the first reference to Israel here is a reference to the church.

Nowhere in the bible does Israel mean the church of God.. show me scripture if you can and I'll use your commentary here... you won't be able to.

When Paul writes that not all Israel is Israel.. he means that not all Israelites are the Israel of God.. just as in the church not all who profess Christ actually possess Christ in their earthen vessel.

There are many examples.. The Pharisees were Israelites although most were NOT the Israel of God.. same with Judas... an Israelite but not the Israel of God.. etc etc etc..

For some reason many people take this to mean that they're Gentiles or something like the church which is predominantly Gentile now..

And there are other examples. I think the evidence is clear: Paul has two "Israels" in his set of concepts - one of them the nation of Israel, the other the Jew+Gentile church.

Who taught you that the church of God is Israel, Drew ?

 

[Eventide]

Luke 22 and Matthew 19 connection...

Look at the words of Christ in Luke 22..

And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

...

Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

OK.. look at that last verse.. 'that ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel...

WHERE else do we see this.. in Matthew 19 of course..

Matthew 19..

Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

NOW, that connects Luke 22 and Matthew 19... and THEN Matthew 25 tells us exactly when the Son of man shall sit upon the throne of His glory...

And that is WHEN He comes..

 

[Eventide]

WHERE are they...?

Luke 13...

There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

So where are Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets ? ?

 

[Eventide]

No comments ? Wow.. I thought that this would be an interesting topic with all of the 'amillenialists' in Christendom today..

On another note.. The bible teaches the restoration of Israel 'thematically' as well as prophetically.. although again, for some reason many can't get past God delivering the nation of Israel in the end.

 

[jasoncran]

it is for that reason that i cant buy fully into preterism. satan attacks his own. the jews in general support things we christian wont. ie abortion and gay rights, etc. yet they are hated and yet the world is for that.

go figure.its not just the muslims that do that. anti-semitism didnt die when hitler died , it just went into hiding thats all.

 

[francisdesales]

Who taught you that the church of God is Israel, Drew ?

Doesn't the Old Testament make this claim over and over again, that Israel is God's People???

Isn't it the Gentiles who are grafted INTO the People of God? And this is the Church, which consists of both Jews and Gentiles?

Regards

 

[Sinthesis]

What's in a name?

Strong's H3478 - Yisra'el - יִשְׂרָאֵל
proper masculine noun
Israel = "God prevails"

1) the second name for Jacob given to him by God after his wrestling with the angel at Peniel
2) the name of the descendants and the nation of the descendants of Jacob

a) the name of the nation until the death of Solomon and the split
b) the name used and given to the northern kingdom consisting of the 10 tribes under Jeroboam; the southern kingdom was known as Judah
c) the name of the nation after the return from exile​

Gen 32:27 - And he said unto him, What [is] thy name? And he said, Jacob.
Gen 32:28 - And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.​

So you should ask what of whom has prevailed over the last 2000yrs? In what or whom must you believe to be given to prevail beyond death? To what or whom does this prevailing belief mark you as belonging?

 

[Asyncritus]

It's a curious thing, but the words 'spiritual Israel' are NEVER used in the NewTestament.

Why then is the church so often called 'spiritual Israel'?

I find 'Israel of God' (Gal 6.16) but it isn't too clear who he is referring to. The church? Or those in ethnic Israel who are faithful?

 

[Asyncritus]

It is hardly surprising that so many churches are amillenialists.

I have yet to meet anybody who is able to square going to heaven or hell with a kingdom of God on earth for the duration of the millennium.

After all, here comes Christ from heaven to the earth to establish the kingdom and His millennial rule (as per Ps 72 and many others), and all the redeemed are in heaven!

The JWs have the ingenious scenario where Christ reigns OVER the earth (as Rev 5.10), meaning from in heaven or space somewhere!

It all sounds a bit cock-eyed to me! :eeeekkk

 

[francisdesales]

I find 'Israel of God' (Gal 6.16) but it isn't too clear who he is referring to. The church? Or those in ethnic Israel who are faithful?

What makes you think it is an "either/or"? Faithful Israel was not done away with, the Gentiles are grafted INTO that root that is "faithful Israel".