Why wasn't Jesus eternally tormented?

[Doulos Iesou]

Most Christians in the world today affirm the Penal Substitutionary Atonement position that Jesus took our punishment standing in our place at the Cross suffering the wrath of God so that we might be forgiven.

However, if the punishment for sin is eternal torment in the lake of fire... why wasn't Jesus tormented in hell for eternity? Wouldn't we say that Jesus only overcame an aspect of our punishment.. when in fact those were punished suffered a totally different punishment than the one Jesus endured.

I have heard preachers attempt to elaborate on this stating it was because of the great worth of Jesus compared to the fallen sinners he was redeeming.. however there is no Scriptural support for any of these notions.

What if... we actually took passages in the Bible seriously and didn't prefer texts with metaphorical and apocalyptic contexts and really did a rethinking of what the final punishment is like?

Here are some points that I believe are completely off most Christian's radars.

1. The wages of sin is death. This is such a simple verse that so many people have memorized, yet so few people actually believe it. They rather think that the wages of sin means eternal torment in the lake of fire, or that this death is not only physical death but also "spiritual" death as in separation from God for all eternity... yet the phrase spiritual death never occurs in Scripture and is a common teaching of Gnosticism which has spiritual death rather than physical death as the ultimate punishment.

2. Jesus teaches in Matthew 10:28 that not only is the body, the physical body destroyed (ἀπόλλυμι means to be destroyed..) in hell, but also our SOUL is destroyed there. Given the context of Matthew 10:28 and Jesus is telling his disciples not to fear those who can merely KILL the body and then do nothing.. he tells them to rather fear God who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

3. The most famous verse in the Bible.. John 3:16 teaches that whoever believes shall not... PERISH, but have eternal life. This is the same Greek word found in Matthew 10:28 and is a strengthened form of ollumi and it means to destroy utterly. This is made clear in the context of life vs perishing and not fearing one how can just kill not only the body but also the soul.

4. And Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire.(Re 20:14).

There are many times in which the Bible employs figurative language yet then expounds on what that means. For example, in Revelation it will use all kinds of metaphorical imagery and then will say.. the 10 horns are 10 kings.. giving somewhat of a commentary for what these images point to.

Here in Revelation 20:14 and in other places he elaborates on just what the lake of fire is.. it is the second death, which is quite interesting because it happens just after the resurrection of the wicked, who will be judged and cast in soul and body to die a second death.. as they had already died once.

Conclusion:

Jesus did die in our place and suffer our penalty as a substitute and it was to suffer the punishment promised of old.. that if we break the law of God we are deserving of death (Romans 1:32). Jesus comes and conquers death our last and greatest enemy by taking the punishment on the Cross and rising from the dead on the Third day.. for the Resurrection is our greatest hope. For immortality was not possessed before Jesus, in Jesus is eternal life.. for he IS eternal life!

but has now been disclosed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought to light life and immortality through the gospel, (2 Ti 1:10).

Did Jesus really take your punishment on the Cross? Is the Resurrection really your greatest hope? Or has our views on the punishment of God confused our soteriology so that the heart of the gospel seems quite irrelevant to the issue we think we have.

We serve a great God who is loving, gracious, righteous and JUST. He will not let the guilty go unpunished, but praise be to God who has set us free from the fear of death and has promised eternal life for all those who are in Christ.

Blessings in Christ,
Servant of Jesus

 

[Eugene]

if the punishment for sin is eternal torment in the lake of fire... why wasn't Jesus tormented in hell for eternity?

As the hymn says, "Jesus paid it all."

 

[Danus]

Most Christians in the world today affirm the Penal Substitutionary Atonement position that Jesus took our punishment standing in our place at the Cross suffering the wrath of God so that we might be forgiven.

However, if the punishment for sin is eternal torment in the lake of fire... why wasn't Jesus tormented in hell for eternity? Wouldn't we say that Jesus only overcame an aspect of our punishment.. when in fact those were punished suffered a totally different punishment than the one Jesus endured.

I have heard preachers attempt to elaborate on this stating it was because of the great worth of Jesus compared to the fallen sinners he was redeeming.. however there is no Scriptural support for any of these notions.

What if... we actually took passages in the Bible seriously and didn't prefer texts with metaphorical and apocalyptic contexts and really did a rethinking of what the final punishment is like?

Here are some points that I believe are completely off most Christian's radars.

1. The wages of sin is death. This is such a simple verse that so many people have memorized, yet so few people actually believe it. They rather think that the wages of sin means eternal torment in the lake of fire, or that this death is not only physical death but also "spiritual" death as in separation from God for all eternity... yet the phrase spiritual death never occurs in Scripture and is a common teaching of Gnosticism which has spiritual death rather than physical death as the ultimate punishment.

2. Jesus teaches in Matthew 10:28 that not only is the body, the physical body destroyed (ἀπόλλυμι means to be destroyed..) in hell, but also our SOUL is destroyed there. Given the context of Matthew 10:28 and Jesus is telling his disciples not to fear those who can merely KILL the body and then do nothing.. he tells them to rather fear God who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

3. The most famous verse in the Bible.. John 3:16 teaches that whoever believes shall not... PERISH, but have eternal life. This is the same Greek word found in Matthew 10:28 and is a strengthened form of ollumi and it means to destroy utterly. This is made clear in the context of life vs perishing and not fearing one how can just kill not only the body but also the soul.

4. And Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire.(Re 20:14).

There are many times in which the Bible employs figurative language yet then expounds on what that means. For example, in Revelation it will use all kinds of metaphorical imagery and then will say.. the 10 horns are 10 kings.. giving somewhat of a commentary for what these images point to.

Here in Revelation 20:14 and in other places he elaborates on just what the lake of fire is.. it is the second death, which is quite interesting because it happens just after the resurrection of the wicked, who will be judged and cast in soul and body to die a second death.. as they had already died once.

Conclusion:

Jesus did die in our place and suffer our penalty as a substitute and it was to suffer the punishment promised of old.. that if we break the law of God we are deserving of death (Romans 1:32). Jesus comes and conquers death our last and greatest enemy by taking the punishment on the Cross and rising from the dead on the Third day.. for the Resurrection is our greatest hope. For immortality was not possessed before Jesus, in Jesus is eternal life.. for he IS eternal life!

but has now been disclosed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought to light life and immortality through the gospel, (2 Ti 1:10).

Did Jesus really take your punishment on the Cross? Is the Resurrection really your greatest hope? Or has our views on the punishment of God confused our soteriology so that the heart of the gospel seems quite irrelevant to the issue we think we have.

We serve a great God who is loving, gracious, righteous and JUST. He will not let the guilty go unpunished, but praise be to God who has set us free from the fear of death and has promised eternal life for all those who are in Christ.

Blessings in Christ,
Servant of Jesus

So that everyone is clear before this thread goes much further; you are addressing and affirming the view of "Annihilationism" correct?
if not feel free to clear it up.


For others who may be unfamiliar with this view; Check here for further reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism

Here is a good answer to this view.
Annihilationism is the belief that unbelievers will not experience an eternity of suffering in hell, but will instead be “extinguished” after death. For many, annihilationism is an attractive belief because of the awfulness of the idea of people spending eternity in hell. While there are some passages that seem to argue for annihilationism, a comprehensive look at what the Bible says about the destiny of the wicked reveals the fact that punishment in hell is eternal. A belief in annihilationism results from a misunderstanding of one or more of the following doctrines: 1) the consequences of sin, 2) the justice of God, 3) the nature of hell.

In relation to the nature of hell, annihilationists misunderstand the meaning of the lake of fire. Obviously, if a human being were cast into a lake of burning lava, he/she would be almost instantly consumed. However, the lake of fire is both a physical and spiritual realm. It is not simply a human body being cast into the lake of fire; it is a human’s body, soul, and spirit. A spiritual nature cannot be consumed by physical fire. It seems that the unsaved are resurrected with a body prepared for eternity just as the saved are (Revelation 20:13; Acts 24:15). These bodies are prepared for an eternal fate.

Eternity is another aspect which annihilationists fail to fully comprehend. Annihilationists are correct that the Greek word aionion, which is usually translated “eternal,” does not by definition mean “eternal.” It specifically refers to an “age” or “eon,” a specific period of time. However, it is clear that in New Testament, aionion is sometimes used to refer to an eternal length of time. Revelation 20:10 speaks of Satan, the beast, and the false prophet being cast into the lake of fire and being tormented “day and night forever and ever.” It is clear that these three are not “extinguished” by being cast into the lake of fire. Why would the fate of the unsaved be any different (Revelation 20:14-15)? The most convincing evidence for the eternality of hell is Matthew 25:46, “Then they [the unsaved] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” In this verse, the same Greek word is used to refer to the destiny of the wicked and the righteous. If the wicked are only tormented for an “age,” then the righteous will only experience life in heaven for an “age.” If believers will be in heaven forever, unbelievers will be in hell forever.

Another frequent objection to the eternality of hell by annihilationists is that it would be unjust for God to punish unbelievers in hell for eternity for a finite amount of sin. How could it be fair for God to take a person who lived a sinful, 70-year life, and punish him/her for all of eternity? The answer is that our sin bears an eternal consequence because it is committed against an eternal God. When King David committed the sins of adultery and murder he stated, “Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight…” (Psalm 51:4). David had sinned against Bathsheba and Uriah; how could David claim to have only sinned against God? David understood that all sin is ultimately against God. God is an eternal and infinite Being. As a result, all sin against Him is worthy of an eternal punishment. It is not a matter of the length of time we sin, but the character of the God against whom we sin.

A more personal aspect of annihilationism is the idea that we could not possibly be happy in heaven if we knew that some of our loved ones were suffering an eternity of torment in hell. However, when we arrive in heaven, we will not have anything to complain about or be saddened by. Revelation 21:4 tells us, “He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” If some of our loved ones are not in heaven, we will be in 100 percent complete agreement that they do not belong there and that they are condemned by their own refusal to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior (John 3:16; 14:6). It is hard to understand this, but we will not be saddened by the lack of their presence. Our focus should not be on how we can enjoy heaven without all of our loved ones there, but on how we can point our loved ones to faith in Christ so that they will be there.

Hell is perhaps a primary reason why God sent Jesus Christ to pay the penalty for our sins. Being “extinguished” after death is no fate to dread, but an eternity in hell most definitely is. Jesus’ death was an infinite death, paying our infinite sin debt so that we would not have to pay it in hell for eternity (2 Corinthians 5:21). When we place our faith in Him, we are saved, forgiven, cleansed, and promised an eternal home in heaven. But if we reject God’s gift of eternal life, we will face the eternal consequences of that decision.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/annihilationism.html#ixzz2OT1vmadI
​

 

[Doulos Iesou]

So that everyone is clear before this thread goes much further; you are addressing and affirming the view of "Annihilationism" correct?
if not feel free to clear it up.

I do not prefer the term "Annihilationism" for a few reasons.

1. It's easy for people to turn into a straw man... "Jesus wasn't annihilated on the Cross!" This is not my contention.. Jesus died on the Cross!
2. Many people see this view as heretical and thus instantly shut their mind off to it... I USED to do that until I actually sat down and studied the Bible even more on the subject.
3. Most "Annihilationists" prefer the term Conditionalists, or rather conditional immortality. That our immortality is conditional on being united with the one who is immortal.. God. Those not united with God through Christ are not given this gift.

For others who may be unfamiliar with this view; Check here for further reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism

Please don't wikipedia your theology... If you have questions about the view I am more than able to address them.

Here is a good answer to this view.
Annihilationism is the belief that unbelievers will not experience an eternity of suffering in hell, but will instead be “extinguished†after death. For many, annihilationism is an attractive belief because of the awfulness of the idea of people spending eternity in hell.

That's a rather ambiguous definition. We don't believe someone is extinguished after death... we believe simply that the second death really means what it says.. that the wicked die.. that they are completely consumed.. that both body and soul are DESTROYED in Gehenna.

Also, you're building a straw man already by appealing that those who hold to this position do so because of the emotional difficulties of a belief in the "Traditional" view. This is not so, and ultimately it was Scripture that convinced me and before that I had vigorously defended the position you hold now.

While there are some passages that seem to argue for annihilationism, a comprehensive look at what the Bible says about the destiny of the wicked reveals the fact that punishment in hell is eternal.

Really... so if we were to start from Genesis and go to Revelation we'd see that a comprehensive investigation of the Bible supports the eternal torment view? I don't mean to make this thread really long.. but it's simply overwhelming the amount of texts that support my position compared to those who argue for the Traditional view. (Of course I don't pit this Scriptures against the one's you would use as I believe all Scripture is inspired and useful for doctrine.)

Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2 Peter 3:7-9
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
Jude 10
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
Revelation 2:11b
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.â€

Ezekiel 18:4 The soul who sins will die.
Psalm 1:4-6
Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
5 Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
6 For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.
Psalm 2:11-12
Serve the LORD with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
12 Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,
Psalm 5:6
you destroy those who tell lies.
Psalm 9:5
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.
Psalm 9:6
even the memory of them has perished.
Psalm 34:16
but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.
Psalm 37:1-2
Do not fret because of those who are evil
or be envious of those who do wrong;
2 for like the grass they will soon wither,
like green plants they will soon die away.
Psalm 37:9
For those who are evil will be destroyed,
Psalm 37:22
those he curses will be destroyed

Psalm 37:28
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed

Psalm 37:34
when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.

Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.

I could go on and on for days listing the amount of Scripture that support this position.

A belief in annihilationism results from a misunderstanding of one or more of the following doctrines: 1) the consequences of sin,

The wages of sin is death.. Or was Paul lying?

2) the justice of God,

I believe that God's justice and punishment of the wicked is consistent from Genesis 3 to Revelation 21.. that the consequences of breaking his commands is death, and this ultimate second death happens when the sinner is cast into the lake of fire and are completely consumed.

3) the nature of hell.

I'll address this with your next section.

In relation to the nature of hell, annihilationists misunderstand the meaning of the lake of fire.

What does Scripture say the lake of fire is Danus?

Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

The lake of fire IS THE SECOND DEATH, tell me what I'm not understanding here..

Obviously, if a human being were cast into a lake of burning lava, he/she would be almost instantly consumed. However, the lake of fire is both a physical and spiritual realm. It is not simply a human body being cast into the lake of fire; it is a human’s body, soul, and spirit. A spiritual nature cannot be consumed by physical fire.

There are some huge issues with this argument as you pretty much just gave me the debate here..

1. I don't content that the imagery has to be a literal fire, it very well may be as in Jude it described Sodom and Gomorrah as undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.. the very punishment promised to the wicked in Matthew 25:41, and what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah? They were utterly destroyed by the eternal fire! You see simply stating that something is eternal doesn't necessarily refer to it's duration, but that's not my main argument with aionios.

2. I understand that it's not only a body that is cast into the hell but also the soul is. So... What does Scripture say? And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Mt 10:28).

In all my reading of commentaries and debating with people of the traditional view I have never once seen a good explanation of this verse, but rather appeal to the meaning of the word destroy as lost or ruin as that is in the semantic range of the word ἀπόλλυμι, yet it is demonstrably not the usage in Matthew 10:28 given the context as I explained in my OP. Both body and soul are destroyed utterly in Gehenna.

It seems that the unsaved are resurrected with a body prepared for eternity just as the saved are (Revelation 20:13; Acts 24:15). These bodies are prepared for an eternal fate.

Nothing in those texts supports your position over and against mine. Yes the wicked and righteous are raised in preparation of their eternal fate. I just differ on the nature of the eternal punishment. I believe that the second death is an eternal death, to which their is no third resurrection, or no return from this death but it is final and the sinner is utterly destroyed... an eternal destruction. If someone is raised from the dead again.. and we say that they died a second death, what would that mean to us Danus? Think about it..

Eternity is another aspect which annihilationists fail to fully comprehend. Annihilationists are correct that the Greek word aionion, which is usually translated “eternal,†does not by definition mean “eternal.†It specifically refers to an “age†or “eon,†a specific period of time. However, it is clear that in New Testament, aionion is sometimes used to refer to an eternal length of time.

You're confused here.. This is universalists who argue over the nature of aionion, Conditionalists affirm that the nature of the punishment is indeed eternal in it's duration we just don't believe the person is consciously being tormented for that entire duration.

Revelation 20:10 speaks of Satan, the beast, and the false prophet being cast into the lake of fire and being tormented “day and night forever and ever.†It is clear that these three are not “extinguished†by being cast into the lake of fire. Why would the fate of the unsaved be any different (Revelation 20:14-15)? The most convincing evidence for the eternality of hell is Matthew 25:46, “Then they [the unsaved] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.†In this verse, the same Greek word is used to refer to the destiny of the wicked and the righteous. If the wicked are only tormented for an “age,†then the righteous will only experience life in heaven for an “age.†If believers will be in heaven forever, unbelievers will be in hell forever.

What's amusing is that these two text and maybe a couple others are all that you really have to support this view. Every single debate I've had always centers around these two texts as the end of the story and of course all the traditionalists will just outright ignore the mountain of texts against them.

1. I'm getting a little more pressed for time so please read Isaiah 34:8-10 for the Bible's apocalyptic usage of this type of language. It refers to the destruction of Edom in terms almost exactly like those cast into the lake of fire in Revelation 20:10 and Revelation 14:9-13.. yet we interpret one literally and the other figuratively... go figure...

2. Matthew 25:46 does not specify that the punishment is eternal torment in hell does it? No where in the passage does it say that, instead you are inserting imagery from Revelation into this text to defend your position thus begging the question. However, in Matthew 25:41 it says that the punishment is eternal fire and as I demonstrated earlier, the only biblical evidence for an example of those undergoing a punishment of eternal fire is Sodom and Gomorrah in Jude... And they were not eternally tormented in hell but were utterly destroyed.

We do not argue that one only means an age and the other an eternity... please cease with the straw-men.

See part 2..

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Another frequent objection to the eternality of hell by annihilationists is that it would be unjust for God to punish unbelievers in hell for eternity for a finite amount of sin.

Not all Conditionalists make this claim actually, if God were to have chosen the eternal torment view as his means of dispensing justice then he would in fact be just. We simply assert that is not what he has done.

How could it be fair for God to take a person who lived a sinful, 70-year life, and punish him/her for all of eternity? The answer is that our sin bears an eternal consequence because it is committed against an eternal God. When King David committed the sins of adultery and murder he stated, “Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight…†(Psalm 51:4). David had sinned against Bathsheba and Uriah; how could David claim to have only sinned against God? David understood that all sin is ultimately against God. God is an eternal and infinite Being. As a result, all sin against Him is worthy of an eternal punishment. It is not a matter of the length of time we sin, but the character of the God against whom we sin.

This is another classic defense that was originally used by Jonathan Edwards and again made popular by John Piper. This argument is however purely philosophical on it's grounds for God performing torture on those who are wicked for all eternity, and it has ZERO grounds in Scripture. No where in Scripture does it try to reason why God would do this, however there is much said about why God punishes men with death particularly in the OT. Or in Romans 1:32 we find that the sins committed prior are not deserving in eternal torment but in death.

A more personal aspect of annihilationism is the idea that we could not possibly be happy in heaven if we knew that some of our loved ones were suffering an eternity of torment in hell.

That is a fine question!

However, when we arrive in heaven, we will not have anything to complain about or be saddened by. Revelation 21:4 tells us, “He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.â€

This is incredible how you use these arguments against me.. yet they just play right into my hands. Why will there be no more death? Or Mourning? Or Crying? Or Pain? FOR the former things have passed away. What does this phrase passed away mean?

13.93 παράγωc; παρέρχομαιd; ἀπέρχομαιb; ἐξέρχομαιb: to go out of existence—‘to cease to exist, to pass away, to cease.’

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Vol. 1: Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (158). New York: United Bible Societies.

All evil associated with the old fallen world will have ceased to exist, that is why the pain and suffering will have ended.

If some of our loved ones are not in heaven, we will be in 100 percent complete agreement that they do not belong there and that they are condemned by their own refusal to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior (John 3:16; 14:6). It is hard to understand this, but we will not be saddened by the lack of their presence.

This argument to me is no offense completely a joke.. You're telling me in our perfect glorious and holy state we will not be utterly saddened by not just the absence of our loved ones, but indeed their eternal conscious.. ongoing torment!?

Think about that for a moment... imagine right now that the person you love most is being tortured and this torturing lasts 5 minutes. This alone would possibly infuriate you or deeply sadden you, whatever would happen it would make you DESPERATE. Yet you're telling me for all eternity you will be totally fine knowing that the majority of man kind and indeed some of those nearest and dear to you will be tortured to and unending and possibly increasingly worse degree? That while you are chilling in the new creation with God having a good ol' time he is torturing in his sovereignty at that exact same moment, those you love... and you think you'll be okay with that?

This to me is one of the greatest inconsistencies of the traditional position which of course I argue first from Scripture that the former things have passed away (ceased to exist).. Yet to think God who created us in his image to be compassionate people, will suddenly cease all love and compassion for those who are being tormented in hell? It's simply morally repugnant, and atheists when they are seeking to discredit Christianity will always go to this point and for good reason.

There is no appeal for the traditionalists except some kind of mysterious way that we suddenly don't care anymore... Bogus!

Hell is perhaps a primary reason why God sent Jesus Christ to pay the penalty for our sins. Being “extinguished†after death is no fate to dread, but an eternity in hell most definitely is.

You're telling me that the most severe punishment the state can render.. which is Capital punishment is nothing to dread? Was God intending to make it really scary so that we can scare all of the people into the kingdom of God? Or has Jesus rescued us from this death, where both body and soul are destroyed in hell, so that we no longer have to fear death. Hell is no where given in the Bible as the reason why God sent Jesus to pay the penalty for our sins, yet you say it is a primary reason.

God's not interested in picking the most terrifying punishment.. he is interested in exercising JUSTICE, which he will judge everyone according to their deeds and the punishments due to them will be in response to his just decree.

Jesus’ death was an infinite death, paying our infinite sin debt so that we would not have to pay it in hell for eternity (2 Corinthians 5:21).

1. Nothing in that text that supports your position.. kind of an odd quote.
2. No where is Jesus' death called an "infinite death." This is simply traditionalist rhetoric that inserts theological concepts from their systematic theology into Biblical theology to make sense and prove their hypothesis.

When we place our faith in Him, we are saved, forgiven, cleansed, and promised an eternal home in heaven. But if we reject God’s gift of eternal life, we will face the eternal consequences of that decision.

This makes me think of the evangelistic efforts of those who use the eternal torment view and rather turn people away because the average person cannot possibly believe that a being would be capable of doing such a thing. Or, on the other side if they do turn to God it's out of fear.

Brothers and sisters it is the kindness of God that leads men to repentance and my view best represents the goodness of God and his justice. That there is a judgement that is coming and God will render to each according to what he has done. Yet we who believe have hope because Jesus died in our place on the cross redeeming us from the slavery of sin, and uniting with us so that we might share in the resurrection life he has.

Evil will be utterly defeated and destroyed with no hope of return and we God's people will worship him in the new creation forever and ever with the knowledge that the former things have indeed passed away.

Amen,
Servant of Jesus

 

[Grappler]

Most Christians in the world today affirm the Penal Substitutionary Atonement position that Jesus took our punishment standing in our place at the Cross suffering the wrath of God so that we might be forgiven.

However, if the punishment for sin is eternal torment in the lake of fire... why wasn't Jesus tormented in hell for eternity? Wouldn't we say that Jesus only overcame an aspect of our punishment.. when in fact those were punished suffered a totally different punishment than the one Jesus endured.

I have heard preachers attempt to elaborate on this stating it was because of the great worth of Jesus compared to the fallen sinners he was redeeming.. however there is no Scriptural support for any of these notions.

What if... we actually took passages in the Bible seriously and didn't prefer texts with metaphorical and apocalyptic contexts and really did a rethinking of what the final punishment is like?

Here are some points that I believe are completely off most Christian's radars.

1. The wages of sin is death. This is such a simple verse that so many people have memorized, yet so few people actually believe it. They rather think that the wages of sin means eternal torment in the lake of fire, or that this death is not only physical death but also "spiritual" death as in separation from God for all eternity... yet the phrase spiritual death never occurs in Scripture and is a common teaching of Gnosticism which has spiritual death rather than physical death as the ultimate punishment.

2. Jesus teaches in Matthew 10:28 that not only is the body, the physical body destroyed (ἀπόλλυμι means to be destroyed..) in hell, but also our SOUL is destroyed there. Given the context of Matthew 10:28 and Jesus is telling his disciples not to fear those who can merely KILL the body and then do nothing.. he tells them to rather fear God who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

3. The most famous verse in the Bible.. John 3:16 teaches that whoever believes shall not... PERISH, but have eternal life. This is the same Greek word found in Matthew 10:28 and is a strengthened form of ollumi and it means to destroy utterly. This is made clear in the context of life vs perishing and not fearing one how can just kill not only the body but also the soul.

4. And Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire.(Re 20:14).

There are many times in which the Bible employs figurative language yet then expounds on what that means. For example, in Revelation it will use all kinds of metaphorical imagery and then will say.. the 10 horns are 10 kings.. giving somewhat of a commentary for what these images point to.

Here in Revelation 20:14 and in other places he elaborates on just what the lake of fire is.. it is the second death, which is quite interesting because it happens just after the resurrection of the wicked, who will be judged and cast in soul and body to die a second death.. as they had already died once.

Conclusion:

Jesus did die in our place and suffer our penalty as a substitute and it was to suffer the punishment promised of old.. that if we break the law of God we are deserving of death (Romans 1:32). Jesus comes and conquers death our last and greatest enemy by taking the punishment on the Cross and rising from the dead on the Third day.. for the Resurrection is our greatest hope. For immortality was not possessed before Jesus, in Jesus is eternal life.. for he IS eternal life!

but has now been disclosed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought to light life and immortality through the gospel, (2 Ti 1:10).

Did Jesus really take your punishment on the Cross? Is the Resurrection really your greatest hope? Or has our views on the punishment of God confused our soteriology so that the heart of the gospel seems quite irrelevant to the issue we think we have.

We serve a great God who is loving, gracious, righteous and JUST. He will not let the guilty go unpunished, but praise be to God who has set us free from the fear of death and has promised eternal life for all those who are in Christ.

Blessings in Christ,
Servant of Jesus

You made some excellent points.

 

[Free]

However, if the punishment for sin is eternal torment in the lake of fire... why wasn't Jesus tormented in hell for eternity? Wouldn't we say that Jesus only overcame an aspect of our punishment.. when in fact those were punished suffered a totally different punishment than the one Jesus endured.

I have heard preachers attempt to elaborate on this stating it was because of the great worth of Jesus compared to the fallen sinners he was redeeming.. however there is no Scriptural support for any of these notions.

What if... we actually took passages in the Bible seriously and didn't prefer texts with metaphorical and apocalyptic contexts and really did a rethinking of what the final punishment is like?

What is the state of the dead right now?

1. The wages of sin is death. This is such a simple verse that so many people have memorized, yet so few people actually believe it. They rather think that the wages of sin means eternal torment in the lake of fire, or that this death is not only physical death but also "spiritual" death as in separation from God for all eternity... yet the phrase spiritual death never occurs in Scripture and is a common teaching of Gnosticism which has spiritual death rather than physical death as the ultimate punishment.

Seeing as how matter is evil in Gnosticism it is no surprise that "spiritual death" would be the ultimate punishment. You really shouldn't make such an argument without defining just what the Gnostics mean by "spiritual death." That the phrase doesn't occur in Scripture is irrelevant as to whether it is true or not.

Just as with the Trinity, we do not find the word in Scripture, but the concept is there:

Isa 59:2 but your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you so that he does not hear. (ESV)

Mat 8:22 And Jesus said to him, "Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead."(ESV)

Mar 15:33 And when the sixth hour had come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.
Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?" which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (ESV)

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—(ESV)

Eph 4:17 Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds.
Eph 4:18 They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. (ESV)

Col 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, (ESV)

1Ti 5:5 She who is truly a widow, left all alone, has set her hope on God and continues in supplications and prayers night and day,
1Ti 5:6 but she who is self-indulgent is dead even while she lives. (ESV)

2. Jesus teaches in Matthew 10:28 that not only is the body, the physical body destroyed (ἀπόλλυμι means to be destroyed..) in hell, but also our SOUL is destroyed there. Given the context of Matthew 10:28 and Jesus is telling his disciples not to fear those who can merely KILL the body and then do nothing.. he tells them to rather fear God who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Firstly, one would have to define "destroy." Secondly, note that it says "can," not "will." If we allow it to say "will," then what that means all depends on how "destroy" is defined.

3. The most famous verse in the Bible.. John 3:16 teaches that whoever believes shall not... PERISH, but have eternal life. This is the same Greek word found in Matthew 10:28 and is a strengthened form of ollumi and it means to destroy utterly. This is made clear in the context of life vs perishing and not fearing one how can just kill not only the body but also the soul.

I suggest looking up it's usage in a lexicon or concordance to see that it has many nuances in meaning, not just "destroy utterly."

4. And Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire.(Re 20:14).

There are many times in which the Bible employs figurative language yet then expounds on what that means. For example, in Revelation it will use all kinds of metaphorical imagery and then will say.. the 10 horns are 10 kings.. giving somewhat of a commentary for what these images point to.

Here in Revelation 20:14 and in other places he elaborates on just what the lake of fire is.. it is the second death, which is quite interesting because it happens just after the resurrection of the wicked, who will be judged and cast in soul and body to die a second death.. as they had already died once.

And yet, if the first death is physical death, and that death is itself thrown into the lake of fire, how can one physically die again? What would the point be of God resurrecting those who are dead just to judge them and kill them again?

but has now been disclosed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought to light life and immortality through the gospel, (2 Ti 1:10).

What are you saying in posting this verse?

 

[John 8:32]

What is the state of the dead right now?

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

Act 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Luk 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luk 8:53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.

The Bible likens it to a deep, uncounscious sleep.

 

[John 8:32]

We can also see that the reward of the wicked is not eternal torment...

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

For many, annihilationism is an attractive belief because of the awfulness of the idea of people spending eternity in hell.

What is attractive about being burned to death? I would rather drown, be shot or just about anything rather than burned to death.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

What is the state of the dead right now?

Hi Free,

Good question! To be honest with you I don't think it is as easy of a question to answer as some believe as they don't seek to reconcile the OT accounts on the afterlife with the new testament and usually only give preference to the NT over and above the OT. However let's begin with looking at what the OT says about the state of the dead after they die.

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun. Ecclesiastes 9:5-6

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going. Ecclesiastes 9:10

In these verses we see that Sheol which is the realm of the dead seems to be a place where all the activities of life cease and that they "know nothing" and there is no "work, thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol."

For in death there is no remembrance of you; in Sheol who will give you praise? Psalm 6:5

It appears that David was under the impression that if he were to die and go to Sheol he would not praise God. This is further exemplified by these verses:

What is gained if I am silenced, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise you? Will it proclaim your faithfulness? Psalm 30:9

Do you show your wonders to the dead? Do their spirits rise up and praise you? Psalm 88:10

It is not the dead who praise the LORD, those who go down to the place of silence; Psalm 115:17

For the grave cannot praise you, death cannot sing your praise; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness. Isaiah 38:18

Sheol is described as a place of silence, that not only the wicked go to, but also the righteous. Some then will make a distinction between upper and lower Sheol... YET there is no textual evidence for such an idea.

There is also the interesting case in 1 Samuel 28 where Saul consults a Medium to communicate with Samuel from beyond the grave. In this passage, Samuel is actually successfully contacted and questions Saul, "Why have you disturbed me?" These are the words of a man who had been dwelling in Sheol the realm of the dead, where he had been in a silent, sleep-like state. He also said, "Tomorrow you and your sons will be with me." Now if you examine the context it's obvious he isn't saying, tomorrow YOU'RE coming to paradise! He's saying tomorrow you're going to die and be in Sheol with me.

While they are inflamed I will prepare them a feast and make them drunk, that they may become merry, then sleep a perpetual sleep and not wake, declares the LORD. Jeremiah 51:9

Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; light up my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death, Psalm 13:3

Sleeping is an image that is consistent throughout the OT and NT for those who die that they "sleep the sleep of death." That this is a perpetual sleep in which there is no waking from it. This leads me to believe that the souls of those who perish in the first death go to the realm of the dead where they are in a sleep-like state and all knowledge, wisdom, work, love, hate and all the things done under the sun are no more.

This to me points to the importance of Jesus work done on the Cross in overcoming the grave and bringing life now, rather than just on the last day. The righteous weren't in some paradise in the OT chilling out just waiting for the Messiah so they could move their residence and enter heaven, this is just demonstrably not the case and comes from a literal reading of Luke 16 and the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus that does huge damage to the overall view of the after-life if taken literally. (That's worth a few threads of it's own as to go on to that rabbit trail would take me sometime to exegete the whole passage for you)

However, I believe that now.. those who sleep in the Lord go to be with the Lord. That when we are absent from the body we are present with the Lord, because of what he has done on the Cross to grant us life with him now and in the resurrection. God's ultimate salvation though, is not of the immaterial soul but of the material body and realm! God is not throwing creation and the beings which filled it into the garbage but is redeeming and restoring his good creation through the resurrection of Jesus until the new heavens and new earth comes in which righteousness resides.

So to put it briefly... I understand that believers are with the Lord in heaven when they die now. I also understand that those who die outside of Christ go to Sheol, which is translated as Hades in the LXX and thus it's continuity into the NT as Hades (Sheol) the realm of the dead where all the wicked now go and cease all activities until the second resurrection.

 

[John 8:32]

δοῦλος Ἰησοῦ,

I do not agree that they are in heaven, there are no scriptures about going to heaven, there are others saying this...

Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

Christ had publicly said that two other times (John 7:34 and John 8:21), but now He is saying that to the disciples/apostles during His last night on earth. Paul said this...

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Time frame is the return of Christ. (I Cor 15:51-51, I Ths 4:16-17 and other scriptures set the resurrection of the dead at the return of Christ.) The reward of the saved is...

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

[Free]

What is the state of the dead right now?

So to put it briefly... I understand that believers are with the Lord in heaven when they die now. I also understand that those who die outside of Christ go to Sheol, which is translated as Hades in the LXX and thus it's continuity into the NT as Hades (Sheol) the realm of the dead where all the wicked now go and cease all activities until the second resurrection.

And what happens when unbelievers get thrown into the lake of fire? Do they immediately cease to exist?

 

[gr8grace]

And What about Satan and the fallen Angels? Do they cease to exist also?

Just Curious and adding to Free's question.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Seeing as how matter is evil in Gnosticism it is no surprise that "spiritual death" would be the ultimate punishment. You really shouldn't make such an argument without defining just what the Gnostics mean by "spiritual death." That the phrase doesn't occur in Scripture is irrelevant as to whether it is true or not.

Just as with the Trinity, we do not find the word in Scripture, but the concept is there:

This logic is simply dangerous... we can then reason that we can come up with all kinds of Biblical phrases to suit our theology by saying, "Trinity isn't in the Bible either, yet it's concept is true." My mention of the Gnostics was to point out that this understanding of this doctrine was held by Christianity's greatest adversary during the early period of the Church. This concept later became even more prevalent with Augustine of Hippo who was formerly a believer in Manichaeism which is a brach of Gnosticism.

It comes from the understanding that true salvation is a spiritual event rather than a material event that seeks to redeem our bodies from creation to a spiritual realm as the created realm is evil. It's surprising how many Christians think this way..

Isa 59:2 but your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you so that he does not hear. (ESV)

Mat 8:22 And Jesus said to him, "Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead."(ESV)

Mar 15:33 And when the sixth hour had come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.
Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?" which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (ESV)

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—(ESV)

Eph 4:17 Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds.
Eph 4:18 They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. (ESV)

Col 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, (ESV)

1Ti 5:5 She who is truly a widow, left all alone, has set her hope on God and continues in supplications and prayers night and day,
1Ti 5:6 but she who is self-indulgent is dead even while she lives. (ESV)

This is simply proof-texting with the implications that each of these texts support your position. As you offered no exegesis or explanation of the texts I see no warrant for a detailed response.

Firstly, one would have to define "destroy." Secondly, note that it says "can," not "will." If we allow it to say "will," then what that means all depends on how "destroy" is defined.

The Greek word used here ἀπολέσαι and while it has in it's semantic range the idea of lost or ruin and is translated this way in certain instances surely does not mean this here. Here is something you must understand about the Greek language, just because a Greek word has the possibility within the semantic range for such a meaning does not alone warrant that. Context is king when it comes to defining a word's usage within it's context. Let's examine the verse again so I can further demonstrate how this word is used exactly how I am saying it is.

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

Jesus is speaking to his twelve disciples here as he is sending them out and tells them not to fear those who CAN (important word here) kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Let's make some observations:

1. The Greek word for kill here is ἀποκτεῖναι and it means what it is translated as, to kill, to put to death, to slay, to murder.
2. That man can kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
3. Note the usage δυναμένων (can, is able) Jesus is talking about the inability of men to kill the soul.

He then rather tells them to fear the one who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell. Let's make some observations about this portion of the text.

1. This fear is not of reverence but is a serious fear in regards to a possibility of a punishment rendered.
2. You pointed out that it says "can" not "will" and used that as a potential argument. Which is no offense rather a silly argument as it demonstrates you aren't reading the full text. The usage of δυνάμενον (can, is able) is used in the first and second clause of the sentence to demonstrate not an absolute indicative but as a possibility and reason for fear. Man kills the body but cannot kill the soul... God destroys both body and soul in Gehenna. We should fear him because he is able to do this, if he didn't destroy any souls in Hell then why would there be reason to fear?
3. Jesus doesn't simply say ἀποκτεῖναι or kill here to describe what God will do, but he uses a more powerful word in ἀπόλλυμι which is a strengthened form of ollumi which means to "utterly destroy." This usage of the word would have caused the disciples to regards as far more severe the destruction possible at the hands of God than the simple being put to death by men.

The text simply cannot support the traditional position.

I suggest looking up it's usage in a lexicon or concordance to see that it has many nuances in meaning, not just "destroy utterly."

A few points in response to this assertion:

1. Lexicon's conflict greatly sometimes on the meaning of some words and are subject to theological bias.
2. Lexicon's should not be expected to do all the leg work for us and we need to EXEGETE the specific text and examine this specific usage rather than cut and paste a definition onto the word and thus possibly do damage to the intended meaning.
3. I have read this word ἀπόλλυμι in all of the major Lexicons, which I own. I am not speaking from ignorance.

And yet, if the first death is physical death, and that death is itself thrown into the lake of fire, how can one physically die again? What would the point be of God resurrecting those who are dead just to judge them and kill them again?

Much is wrong here...

1. Death and Hades being thrown into the lake of fire must be seen within the context of Revelation as it is a reference to Death and Hades in Revelation 6:8 and they were (figuratively of course) riders that were given power to kill by the sword, famine, plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.
2. You're assuming that your position is correct and that those who die are instantly judged and go into an intermediate punishment until the final punishment. There is one judgement referred to in Scripture and that is the judgement at the resurrection on the last day. When all men will be judged according to what they have done and receive back the things done through the body whether good or bad. Simply, God resurrects them to exact Justice.

What are you saying in posting this verse?

I use that verse to point out that the gospel brings immortality and victory over death and that is precisely my position. That the immorality of the soul is not consistent with the Bible and true immortality comes from Jesus and his victory over death.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

What is the state of the dead right now?

So to put it briefly... I understand that believers are with the Lord in heaven when they die now. I also understand that those who die outside of Christ go to Sheol, which is translated as Hades in the LXX and thus it's continuity into the NT as Hades (Sheol) the realm of the dead where all the wicked now go and cease all activities until the second resurrection.

And what happens when unbelievers get thrown into the lake of fire? Do they immediately cease to exist?

I personally don't believe it is a an immediate "ceasing to exist," the Bible talks about different degrees of punishment based on what we know and how we responded to what we know. Also language of weeping and gnashing of teeth leads me to believe that this destruction is not an immediate cutting off but as I said, a punishment being rendered that corresponds to one's deeds which can differ in the length of time. Ultimately the punishment of eternal fire leaves one completely destroyed as proven by Sodom and Gomorrah who underwent the punishment of eternal fire.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

And What about Satan and the fallen Angels? Do they cease to exist also?

Just Curious and adding to Free's question.

Hi gr8grace,

Very good question, while there is among those who hold my position some differences on this matter I will try and spell them out for you.

1. There are some who believe that only demonic beings will be tormented forever in the lake of fire, this is due in part to Revelation 14:9-13 and Revelation 20:10. That the devil, the beast, fallen angels and those who bore the mark of the beast will be the only ones tormented there as that is the only reference in Revelation to those undergoing this kind of punishment.
2. I hold to the view that this apocalyptic language is employed elsewhere such as Isaiah 34:8-10 in the instance of the destruction of Edom. Where some of the exact same imagery and description of the nature of the punishment. Yet interpreters will take one as figurative.. in Isaiah.. and the other as literal.. in Revelation a book which we should seldom take descriptions and words literally!

Let me know if you'd like me to explain my position a little bit more in depth.

Hope this helps,
Servant of Jesus

 

[Free]

This logic is simply dangerous... we can then reason that we can come up with all kinds of Biblical phrases to suit our theology by saying, "Trinity isn't in the Bible either, yet it's concept is true."

The logic is not dangerous. We do it all the time to sum up what the Bible says regarding a certain topic, such as the doctrine of the Trinity. It is just a much simpler and more reasonable way to If you want dangerous logic, this past statement of yours is:

"Really... so if we were to start from Genesis and go to Revelation we'd see that a comprehensive investigation of the Bible supports the eternal torment view? I don't mean to make this thread really long.. but it's simply overwhelming the amount of texts that support my position compared to those who argue for the Traditional view. (Of course I don't pit this Scriptures against the one's you would use as I believe all Scripture is inspired and useful for doctrine.)"

To say that view X has more support than view Y which makes view X correct, is fallacious and dangerous. Unfortunately it is far too common that such reasoning is employed and leads to all sorts of error. And despite your objection, if your view doesn't take into account and make sense of all that is revealed about hell and the state of unbelievers in it, it is pitting Scripture against Scripture.

In other words, if there is in fact even some support for the traditional view, it doesn't matter how much you can muster to support your view, if you cannot or do not take into account support for the traditional view, you are pitting Scripture against Scripture.

My mention of the Gnostics was to point out that this understanding of this doctrine was held by Christianity's greatest adversary during the early period of the Church. This concept later became even more prevalent with Augustine of Hippo who was formerly a believer in Manichaeism which is a brach of Gnosticism.

It comes from the understanding that true salvation is a spiritual event rather than a material event that seeks to redeem our bodies from creation to a spiritual realm as the created realm is evil. It's surprising how many Christians think this way..

You didn't even answer the question. What did the Gnostics mean by "spiritual death"? You cannot use this argument until you show precisely what they meant by such a phrase.

This is simply proof-texting with the implications that each of these texts support your position. As you offered no exegesis or explanation of the texts I see no warrant for a detailed response.

The texts are pretty self-explanatory. They all, in one way or another, show either that "dead" can refer to those who are spiritually separated from God or that sin puts one in a position of being separated from God.

The point of which is, it undermines your first point that "The wages of sin is [only physical] death," that "death" does not mean "spiritual separation from God. Those verses all sufficiently show otherwise.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

This logic is simply dangerous... we can then reason that we can come up with all kinds of Biblical phrases to suit our theology by saying, "Trinity isn't in the Bible either, yet it's concept is true."

The logic is not dangerous. We do it all the time to sum up what the Bible says regarding a certain topic, such as the doctrine of the Trinity.

This logic simply begs the question, it asserts a definition to be true without demonstrating it to be so in the context of a debate. When people come up to me and say "what about spiritual death," I respond back that's a logical fallacy...

It is just a much simpler and more reasonable way to If you want dangerous logic, this past statement of yours is:

"Really... so if we were to start from Genesis and go to Revelation we'd see that a comprehensive investigation of the Bible supports the eternal torment view? I don't mean to make this thread really long.. but it's simply overwhelming the amount of texts that support my position compared to those who argue for the Traditional view. (Of course I don't pit this Scriptures against the one's you would use as I believe all Scripture is inspired and useful for doctrine.)"

To say that view X has more support than view Y which makes view X correct, is fallacious and dangerous. Unfortunately it is far too common that such reasoning is employed and leads to all sorts of error. And despite your objection, if your view doesn't take into account and make sense of all that is revealed about hell and the state of unbelievers in it, it is pitting Scripture against Scripture.

Please.. please... please.... read what I said again...

(Of course I don't pit this Scriptures against the one's you would use as I believe all Scripture is inspired and useful for doctrine.)

There is not a single text I ignore on this matter and I have already addressed numerous times traditionalists favorite texts such as Matthew 25:46 and Revelation 20:10. What I see a complete lack of is any traditionalist engaging in exegesis on any of the texts I have presented.

My attempt is to harmonize all the Biblical revelation on the matter and not give special preference to a couple texts but rightly understand ALL of the texts on the matter. I do not pit Scripture against Scripture, rather that is the very thing I see traditionalists do! I quote Matthew 10:28... and instead of engaging on what that really means they will quote Matthew 25:46..

In other words, if there is in fact even some support for the traditional view, it doesn't matter how much you can muster to support your view, if you cannot or do not take into account support for the traditional view, you are pitting Scripture against Scripture.

There is NO Biblical support whatsoever for the traditional view... I do grant that traditionalists wrongly understand certain texts and then use them to support their doctrine. If one single text taught something different than what I believed then there would be a contradiction and thus it would demonstrate a complete lack of understanding on my part.

Please don't assume I am pitting Scripture against Scripture because throughout my posts that is just demonstrably not the case..

You didn't even answer the question. What did the Gnostics mean by "spiritual death"? You cannot use this argument until you show precisely what they meant by such a phrase.

I am at work right now and don't have my Logos which has all my information on the Gnostics... while I know that they don't mean the same exact thing as you probably are inferring by the term spiritual death, my point is that this idea that there is a "spiritual death" first arrived with them.

The texts are pretty self-explanatory.

Everyone who is arguing for a certain position believes that the texts they use are self-explanatory. This doesn't do much except make for a rather poor debate tactic. If it's so simple to explain and there is contention on the matter than explain why you believe it supports it through exegesis.

I don't simply quote Matthew 10:28 and say it's self-explanatory, I will engage in exegesis and demonstrate how my interpretation is indeed the correct one.

They all, in one way or another, show either that "dead" can refer to those who are spiritually separated from God or that sin puts one in a position of being separated from God.

This has yet to be demonstrated, and you're committing a logical fallacy here of begging the question.

The point of which is, it undermines your first point that "The wages of sin is [only physical] death," that "death" does not mean "spiritual separation from God. Those verses all sufficiently show otherwise.

This is just poor exegesis and hermeneutics... you need to demonstrate in Romans 6 that this "death" is not only a physical death but actually has in mind this aspect of "spiritual death." Even if your contention is correct you would still be inserting where ever you please this concept of "spiritual death." We need to exegete each individual text to determine the usage of a given word within it's own context, not just saying that it can be one way or the other.

 

[reba]

He was the sin offering.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

He was the sin offering.

Care to expound on what you believe are the implications of your statement is?