Will There Be A 7 Year Tribulation? Probably Not!

[lecoop]

Since John DID number the seals, trumpets, vials and woes, we should ASSUME that the rest is in order also. Not to mention his transitional phrases like, "after these things." A close study then reveals that they ARE IN ORDER! God did not write Revelation to confuse us; it is a revealing. The only thing we need to be careful to watch for, is what today we call parenthesis. A good example is the first five verses of chapter 12. They are not related in time to John's chronology. it was God giving John a brief "History lesson," showing John what the dragon did when Jesus was born.

We can be SURE that no trumpet will be sounded until all seals are broken, and no vial will be poured out until all trumpets are sounded. We can be SURE Jesus does not return on the white horse until AFTER the 70th week have finished with the last vial. We can be sure that the 6th seal is BEFORE the day of the Lord and 70th week, and the 7th trumpet is at the midpoint of the week. The CONTEXT proves these things.

Coop

No we should not " assume". anything.Just because seals are numbered, that means seals are in order, just because trumpets are numbered doesnt mean they have to follow the seals in order, it means they must follow themselves in order.To say that God did not write revelation to confuse us is not completely true. He wrote revealtion to reveal the truth to those who will dilligently seek it. If it was written to clearly and openly show all things in it, it would be written in plain language not veiled parabalic language. He would not use horses. He would not say " a great star fell" He would not say candlesticks.

As far as rev 12 showing history that is completely untrue and shown to be untrue by exactly what it says it is future prophesy not history.

There is far too much assuming happening here and not enough dilligently studying. We see things liek this said

Rev 4:1 ¶ After this I looked, and,

Rev 6:1 ¶ And I saw when

Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold

Rev 6:4 And there went out another

Rev 7:1 ¶ And after these things I saw four angels

Rev 7:9 ¶ After this I beheld, and, lo,

Rev 8:1 ¶ And when he had opened the seventh seal

Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels

Rev 8:13 And I beheld, and heard

Rev 10:1 ¶ And I saw another mighty angel

Rev 10:4 And when the seven thunders

Rev 12:1 ¶ And there appeared

Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice

Rev 13:3 And I saw

Rev 13:11 ¶ And I beheld another beast

Rev 14:1 ¶ And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb

Rev 14:6 ¶ And I saw another angel fly

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them,

Rev 14:14 ¶ And I looked, and behold

Rev 14:17 ¶ And another angel came

Rev 15:1 ¶ And I saw another sign in heaven

Rev 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold

Here are many examples of the things told us- MOST of these are the order that HE SAW THEM, NOT claimed to be the order they will happen in.- While the rest are clearly showing an ORDER. We must take those shown in order in order and not assume that because he saw things in an order that he saw them from beginning to end in order of events. none of the prophets are written like that nor are their visions given like that.

Good job finding all those transitional phrases. My point is, if SO MUCH of it IS in numbered order, why would anyone even THINK that the rest was not in order? Second, this is not an Old Testament Prophecy. And there is no reason why it must be written as one. This is a new and better covenant, with better promises, and under the New, people were born again. The Holy Spirit dwells IN us. Old Testament Saints only had the Holy Spirit anointing, no born again experience.

And again, if you say it is not in order, it will be up to you to show the readers a preponderance of evidence to prove it. However, since things are in perfect order, I don't think you can do that.

Coop

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

Ah! But you are ASSUMING that they are NOT in order. I am convinced they ARE. Why would they NOT be in order? God writes it as history, as if it is already done. History is usually written in Chronological order. Unless one can PROVE by the very scriptures that they are NOT in order, then the order God showed them, and John wrote them MUST STAND.

Are you saying that Jesus will be yet born again, physically sometime in our future? Rev 12:1-5 was God showing John what the dragon HAD DONE, about 2 to 4 BC when Jesus was born.

2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Sorry, but is is a HISTORY LESSON, where God showed John how Satan tried to Kill Jesus as a baby.
I am not saying there are not other hidden and deeper meanings, but this is a most obvious meaning.

Coop

No I am not assuming, I studied first to find if they were in order or were not. The way we can KNOW they are not in order is because of the types that God has given us all through the word of God.If we study the order that all Gods historical events happen and the patterns that they always happen in, we see the correct oder of the prophesy to occur.

Am I saying that Jesus will be born again? YES but not physically as a singular little baby in a manger. We have the birth of the manchild prophesied to us in several places besides rev 12. Jesus also told us in john 16, Is. 66 etc.. about this.


As far as this not being an OT prophesy, it prophesies of the exact same events as several OT prophesies and is in the same order as them often.This is seen alot in Isaiah and zech.

 

[Vic C.]

a bit off topic ;-)

Why in the world does it matter if there's a time gap between the fulfillment of the 69 weeks (which have already been fulfilled even according to Historicists), and the last "one week" given in Dan.9:27?

Who made no time gap a determining factor in interpreting the completion of the Daniel 70 weeks prophecy? Someone show me where God made that 'no time gap allowed' rule in His written Word?

It matters because you can misinterpret all sorts of scripture.
I can prove that Christ was crucified on Wednesday not Friday by using time gaps.
I can prove scientists are correct and God did not create the universe within seven days using time gaps.

The rule is when you interpret the scriptures you should stick to what it says. Unless God says "time gaps" you should read the text as it is written. Using time gaps I can prove the great tribulation period is not seven years but fourteen years, no twenty eight years.... etc.

I can agree w/ most of what you have said, aa300, though I do believe Jesus did die late one Wed. afternoon and was in the belly of the earth for threes days and nights, without any gaps. :D Just as He stated.

Just to clarify, I have never said there was a "no gap rule". I just believe there isn't a gap in the Dan. 9 prophecy. Come to think of it, it was a messenger of God, Gabriel, who revealed all this to Daniel.

Anyway, isn't this qualified to be a gap in prophecy?

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

There are gaps in a few prophecies; Dan. 9 just isn't one of them. Messiah came as predicted, sacrifices were ended and the temple was destroyed, never to be rebuilt.

 

[archangel_300]

Re: a bit off topic ;-)

I can agree w/ most of what you have said, aa300, though I do believe Jesus did die late one Wed. afternoon and was in the belly of the earth for threes days and nights, without any gaps. :D Just as He stated.

We had a large debate in the Apologetics section on this. There is actually pretty solid scriptural proof Christ was crucified on Friday. I believe the 3 days 3 nights refer to the entire atonement for sin which started Thursday night... but different discussion.

Just to clarify, I have never said there was a "no gap rule". I just believe there isn't a gap in the Dan. 9 prophecy. Come to think of it, it was a messenger of God, Gabriel, who revealed all this to Daniel.

Anyway, isn't this qualified to be a gap in prophecy?

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

No this doesn't qualify as a gap in prophecy because it is open ended. There is no specific time frame mentioned here that this has to occur in. But when I start seeing specific time frames mentioned with a specific squence of events and then I start using gaps to prove my point, that's when you run the high risk of interpreting the word in error.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

No they are not in order.The seals trumpets and vials overlap one another.

GodspromisesRyes explained it about as good as anyone could.

If you are going to make a bold statement against logic, then it is up to you to PROVE it.
But, since John DID write things chronologically, you will find that extremely difficult.

People only find a need to rearrange John's chronology because of preconceived glasses and false doctrine. It makes perfect sense in the Order God put it.

Coop

Like I said,Godspromises explained it as good as anyone could have.You just couldnt understand it.
I didnt expect you would understand it.

 

[lecoop]

No they are not in order.The seals trumpets and vials overlap one another.

GodspromisesRyes explained it about as good as anyone could.

If you are going to make a bold statement against logic, then it is up to you to PROVE it.
But, since John DID write things chronologically, you will find that extremely difficult.

People only find a need to rearrange John's chronology because of preconceived glasses and false doctrine. It makes perfect sense in the Order God put it.

Coop

Like I said,Godspromises explained it as good as anyone could have.You just couldnt understand it.
I didnt expect you would understand it.

Just as I thought: make a bold statement; pass it off as TRUTH, with no argument whatsoever. This is almost laughable. And then accuse me of not understanding.

If you find such a need to rearrange, then you must have some evidence to back up your rearranging. But, of course you have no evidence; just theories.

Coop

 

[David505]

...we should not " assume". anything. Just because seals are numbered, that means seals are in order, just because trumpets are numbered doesnt mean they have to follow the seals in order, it means they must follow themselves in order.

Thanks GodspromisesReyes,

That’s a good point.

Another option may be that some of the symbols are concurrent.

For example, the first four trumpets (Rev. 8: 7-12) may describe effects related to a single event that happen all at once.

In my humble opinion (and, please, let’s not get off topic), the first four trumpets depict an intercontinental nuclear exchange; although the main point I’d like to submit is the idea of concurrence.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

People here are giving examples of gaps in prophecy but havnt given any examples of gaps in time.
How are you going to make a gap in time?Are you going to stop God's clock ?
Are you going to say Gabriel cant count?
Its one thing to say part of a paragraph was forfilled at one point in time and the other part is forfilled in another point in time.But you cant stop time.If the scxripture says 70 weeks then it would have to be in 70 weeks.If it means years then it would take place in 70 years.But you cant say time statred at one point then stoped for thousands of years then picked back up where it left off.Time doesnt work that way.

 

[lecoop]

...we should not " assume". anything. Just because seals are numbered, that means seals are in order, just because trumpets are numbered doesnt mean they have to follow the seals in order, it means they must follow themselves in order.

Thanks GodspromisesReyes,

That’s a good point.

Another option may be that some of the symbols are concurrent.

For example, the first four trumpets (Rev. 8: 7-12) may describe effects related to a single event that happen all at once.

In my humble opinion (and, please, let’s not get off topic), the first four trumpets depict an intercontinental nuclear exchange; although the main point I’d like to submit is the idea of concurrence.

I agree with you about the nukes.

Coop

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

Ok so here is example of the correct ORDER of events, that we see because God has done them before so that we can know.

i will skip to the second largest type: Moses.

Moses fled into the wilderness with the Israelites chased out by pharoh who is a type of the serpent.

Their they were fed in the wilderness and protected from their enemies. They were fed spiritual food by God through Moses who taught them the TRUTH- and they were fed manna from heaven representing Jesus.

After this they left the wilderness and went into the promised land being led by TWO people joshua and caleb. Here they actually had wars and overcame but often many of them died.

- So too Rev 12 shows a birth of the man child- and the woman fleeing into the wilderness from the face of the serpent where the manchild will feed her there for 1,260 days.

After which, we see in REV 11 the event that by type is to follow- we see the two witnesses going out and preaching and being delivered of their enemies until their testimonies are finished.

In the largest example: We see Jesus begin His ministry fleeing to the wilderness and after he is done there he comes back to gather His people and He teaches them in the wilderness. Jesus feeds them there both literal and spiritual food, and there is no persecution yet and even when they try to lay hold on him they cant.

Just as in rev 12 the manchild will be caught up and then the woman will go into the wilderness where the manchild will feed her there etc...

Then Jesus raised up disciples and said to them " ye shall be my witnesses...unto the ends of the earth" and He gave them a great commision where they were to go into all the nations TWO BY TWO
Luk 10:1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
Mar 6:7 And he called [unto him] the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;

We know from acts that these went out two by two to preach the gospel and soon after persectution began and when their individual testimonies were finished they were martyred.

These are the two largest examples of MANY that show the order is the overcommers feed the rest of the body in the wilderness protected from the enemy first and then when they are ready they go into the world the nations the land two by two as two witnesses. These show us that rev 11 happens in timing after rev 12.


Here is another example of that order. Just like moses and Jesus led a woman(believers) into the wilderness so too NOAH led his family into the ARK. THEN the animals came in unto noah intot he ark TWO BY TWO. and they were in there for 7 days before it rained.

Gen 7:7 ¶ And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
Gen 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
Gen 7:10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

So again we see the holy man of God leading others first and then two by two. we also see there the 7 days of tribulation(years) which are followed by the wrath of God.

These are just the beignning of examples we could go through that show the order always remains the same.

Ecc 1:9 The thing that hath been, it [is that] which shall be; and that which is done [is] that which shall be done: and [there is] no new [thing] under the sun.

 

[lecoop]

Ok so here is example of the correct ORDER of events, that we see because God has done them before so that we can know.

i will skip to the second largest type: Moses.

Moses fled into the wilderness with the Israelites chased out by pharoh who is a type of the serpent.

Their they were fed in the wilderness and protected from their enemies. They were fed spiritual food by God through Moses who taught them the TRUTH- and they were fed manna from heaven representing Jesus.

After this they left the wilderness and went into the promised land being led by TWO people joshua and caleb. Here they actually had wars and overcame but often many of them died.

- So too Rev 12 shows a birth of the man child- and the woman fleeing into the wilderness from the face of the serpent where the manchild will feed her there for 1,260 days.

After which, we see in REV 11 the event that by type is to follow- we see the two witnesses going out and preaching and being delivered of their enemies until their testimonies are finished.

In the largest example: We see Jesus begin His ministry fleeing to the wilderness and after he is done there he comes back to gather His people and He teaches them in the wilderness. Jesus feeds them there both literal and spiritual food, and there is no persecution yet and even when they try to lay hold on him they cant.

Just as in rev 12 the manchild will be caught up and then the woman will go into the wilderness where the manchild will feed her there etc...

Then Jesus raised up disciples and said to them " ye shall be my witnesses...unto the ends of the earth" and He gave them a great commision where they were to go into all the nations TWO BY TWO
Luk 10:1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
Mar 6:7 And he called [unto him] the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;

We know from acts that these went out two by two to preach the gospel and soon after persectution began and when their individual testimonies were finished they were martyred.

These are the two largest examples of MANY that show the order is the overcommers feed the rest of the body in the wilderness protected from the enemy first and then when they are ready they go into the world the nations the land two by two as two witnesses. These show us that rev 11 happens in timing after rev 12.


Here is another example of that order. Just like moses and Jesus led a woman(believers) into the wilderness so too NOAH led his family into the ARK. THEN the animals came in unto noah intot he ark TWO BY TWO. and they were in there for 7 days before it rained.

Gen 7:7 ¶ And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
Gen 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
Gen 7:10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

So again we see the holy man of God leading others first and then two by two. we also see there the 7 days of tribulation(years) which are followed by the wrath of God.

These are just the beignning of examples we could go through that show the order always remains the same.

Ecc 1:9 The thing that hath been, it [is that] which shall be; and that which is done [is] that which shall be done: and [there is] no new [thing] under the sun.

Except that John shows us the two witnesses show up FIRST, about 3 1/2 days before the fleeing. You can find every type in the bible, but that will not change John's God given chronology. However, since the two witnesses DO testify for 1260 days, they will be testifying AT THE SAME TIME the remant is being protected from the Beast.

If you feel the need to rearrange - that is your choice. But just know that ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronolgy is immediately suspect, and WILL be proven wrong.

You will have to do better than types. It just could be that God did something new that did not follow an Old Testament type exactly. Therefore, if you are to prove the order of Revelation wrong, you must prove it by New Testament scriptures.

On the other hand, what is WRONG with John's order? What scripture would be against God measuring the temple, perhaps a week before the abomination? What scripture would be against the two witnesses showing up 3 1/2 days before the abomination? What scripture would be against the woman fleeing the moment she sees the abomination, and being protected for 1260 days, or time, times and half of time? What scripture would be against the 42 months of the beast beginning very soon after the abomination?
What scripture would be against the trumpets being in the first half of the week, and the vials in the second half? What scripture would be against the 7th seal marking the official opening of the 70th week and the Day of the Lord? What scripture would be against the 7th trumpet marking the exact midpoint? What scripture would be against the 7th vial marking the end of the 70th week. This is John's chronology.

Coop

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

coop if you choose to believe one book out of the whole scripture is in order, when the rest is not- and even though it goes against every example God has given us of events that are the same in type then have at it, peace to you from our Lord.

 

[lecoop]

coop if you choose to believe one book out of the whole scripture is in order, when the rest is not- and even though it goes against every example God has given us of events that are the same in type then have at it, peace to you from our Lord.

If it is out of order, it should be EASY to prove that from Revelation itself. But, of course, if that were the case (out of order) you would ALREADY have proved it from Revelation itself. For the readers, since he has NOT proved John's order incorrect, from Revelation itself, we all know it is just a theory, from human reasoning. In truth, John's chronology is perfect, with NO NEED to rearrange.

Coop

 

[Anothen]

Re: Will There Be A 7 Year Tribulation? YES

The 70th week of Daniel is divided into half’s. Jacob's trouble is the last half, the great tribulation. The term "7 year tribulation" is a tag to describe the last week of years. This week has not occurred yet. The only logical conclusion concerning this last week is that the Church is removed and Satan is able to orchestrate a false peace with Israel and after 3 and 1/2 years breaks it and all "Hell" breaks loose on Earth. Israel is a stumbling stone a rock of offence to all nations. BO is taking our nation to its lowest point in its history by siding with all forces anti Israel. We are in the last days and the rapture is near. No one knows when the appearing will take place, the rapture and because this is unknown the Second Coming is unknown. We know that the second coming is at the end of the 70th week but we don't know when the Rapture is and the rapture is imminent.

 

[lecoop]

Re: Will There Be A 7 Year Tribulation? YES

The 70th week of Daniel is divided into half’s. Jacob's trouble is the last half, the great tribulation. The term "7 year tribulation" is a tag to describe the last week of years. This week has not occurred yet. The only logical conclusion concerning this last week is that the Church is removed and Satan is able to orchestrate a false peace with Israel and after 3 and 1/2 years breaks it and all "Hell" breaks loose on Earth. Israel is a stumbling stone a rock of offence to all nations. BO is taking our nation to its lowest point in its history by siding with all forces anti Israel. We are in the last days and the rapture is near. No one knows when the appearing will take place, the rapture and because this is unknown the Second Coming is unknown. We know that the second coming is at the end of the 70th week but we don't know when the Rapture is and the rapture is imminent.

I pretty much agree, except for one thing: how long did Jacob have to work for his TRUE love?

If you remember, he agreed to 7 years (ring a bell?) and worked those years, but was given the WRONG WIFE. So he agreed to work ANOTHER 7 years (that should be confirmation) for the one he loved.

My point is, it must be the entire week is called "jacob's trouble." It may not LOOK like trouble at first - but when you covenant with the devil, it is TROUBLE with a capital T.

Coop

 

[Sinthesis]

Just wanted to let everyone know that the 'Great Tribulation' is not one of the prophetic '70 Weeks'.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled bickering. ;)

 

[lecoop]

Just wanted to let everyone know that the 'Great Tribulation' is not one of the prophetic '70 Weeks'.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled bickering. ;)

GT "is not one of the prophetic 70 weeks?" What on earth do you mean?
Perhaps a small explanation would have helped. Then we could have "bickered" with it! ;)

What many people don't understand is that Jesus NEVER put this "title:" "great tribulation" on either half the 70th week. What He did say was "those days" of "great trubulation." Those days do NOT last the entire last half of the week, because Jesus said they are shortened.

Therefore, days of GT will begins shortly after the abomination that divides the week into two halves. It will be an unknown time before the 2nd beast shows up and initiates the mark. Therefore, those days will get worse and worse, as the mark is created and enforced. I believe those days will be at their peak when the first vial is poured out. Then, with each vial, the Beast will find it more and more difficult to continue his murdering rampage. God will have effectively "shortened" those days.

Coop

 

[David505]

What many people don't understand is that Jesus NEVER put this "title:" "great tribulation" on either half the 70th week. What He did say was "those days" of "great tribulation."... Those days do NOT last the entire last half of the week, because Jesus said they are shortened...
Therefore, days of GT will begins shortly after the abomination that divides the week into two halves...
Coop

Thanks lecoop,

Excellent.

If we all agreed on this conceptual framework (which, I think, is pretty straightforward), our "bickering" would be much more systematic.

 

[David505]

It's the false doctrines of Preterism that tries to say the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans completely fulfilled the events our Lord gave in Matt.24, and the connection He gave to the Book of Daniel about the placing of the abomination that maketh desolate.

It's Preterism that denies that Christ reigns on earth for a thousand years AFTER His coming, even though Rev.20 simply shows He does.

It's Preterism that wants the deceived to think we could already be in Christ's Milennium, if they choose to believe it does in fact exist.

It's Preterism that pushes the lie that Christ's second coming is not a bodily coming, but only a spiritual coming, and that it has ALREADY happened back in 70 A.D.

Thanks veteran,

Good show.

FYI: Some of the advocates call it Partial Preterism, perhaps, because the doctrine is partially defensible.

 

[archangel_300]

I'm interested in something here...
For those who believe in a 7 year great tribulation period and that the final week of 70 weeks is the great tribulation period and "jacob's trouble". What authors\books have you been reading? Does this teaching come from your church?