Works save? Rubbish

[Heidi]

The notion that works save is hogwash. How many Sundays do we have to go to church? What if we miss 1, 2, or 3? Who decides? How many people do we have to help? 20, 100? 1,000? The apostle said that some will enter heaven "only as one escaping through the flames." 1 Co. 3: "he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."

It is therefore obvious that works do not save because one barely escaping the flames obviously did not do as many works as those who gave up their lives for Christ. There are obviously degrees of heaven or sitting at the right hand of the father would not be coveted, nor would Paul make any distinction between those barely escaping the flames and others who bear much fruit.

Only receiving the Holy Spirit saves us as Jesus tells us in John 17:3, "Now this is eternal life: that they may know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." He makes it crystal clear. Works come from the Holy Spirit which nudges us to give back what Jesus gave us. Jesus also talks about degrees of heaven in Luke 7:47, "Therefore I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven-for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven for little, loves little."

God gives each person no mear than he/she can bear. Some will produce much fruit, others little. But as paul said, they will still be saved, but just barely escaping through the flames.

 

[farley]

You seem to be holding yourself out as an authority on "works".

Please, what does your Bible tell you about "works" regarding your salvation?

In Christ,

farley

 

[Heidi]

You seem to be holding yourself out as an authority on "works".

Please, what does your Bible tell you about "works" regarding your salvation?

In Christ,

farley

Sorry, but the bible is the authority, not you or me. Eph. 2:8-9, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift from God, not by works so that no one can boast."

That says it all. It's too bad that many don't believe it.

 

[D46]

I can answer that...if I may. Works can be good or they can be evil. Witness the following scriptures.

Acts 7:41 (KJV) And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.

Acts 9:36 (KJV) Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did.

When Abraham took Isaac up on the mountain to sacrafice him unto God, he knew God would see him through even though he knew what he was about to do would destroy his only son. His faith was manifested by his works.

James 2:15-17 (KJV) If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.


Martin Luther once said that he detested the book of James and wish it had never been written. He didn't have an understanding of James but, he was so caught up and incensed over other matters and doctrines in his church, this seemed as if it were a doctrine in itself to him of gaining favor and salvation through good works...which it wasn't.

James 2:26
There is no contradiction between the meaning of the apostles James and Paul, with regard to justification. The case of Abraham exemplifies the doctrine of both. Paul treats of faith as justifying us before God: James treats of the fruit, or effects of faith. How can one claim to be a Christian if he "shuts up his bowles of compassion" when a brother or sister is in need? the is not works to gain salvation but rather, is what we do just because God is our father and we have compassion to feed that brother or sister and clothe them.

Hebrews 9:14 (KJV) How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

1John 3:8 (KJV) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Which means you want gain entrance into the throne of Grace by walking up a flight of stairs on your knees to kiss some statue or view a shrine of Mary. You can walk on broken glasss and bleed all day, but; it won't gain you a thing but a hospital bill.

Titus 3:5 (KJV) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Galatians 3:8 (KJV) And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Romans 5:1 (KJV) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

No amount of visiting the nursing homes on Sunday afternoon or carrying goodies to a sick neighbor, or going on a pilgrimage will gain you one second before the Master. These are good things to do...and, should be commended. However, done in a wrong spirit (and only God knows) or because a church says you have to do good works as part of their doctrine won't gain you a thing.
There is no salvation apart from the shed blood of Jesus Christ and faith in him alone. Good works will naturally be produced if your heart is right and you believe in the sacrafice Jesus made (and it was a ONE time thing, not be be repeated thousands of times a day worldwide) for us all with his death on the cross. By the way, he's not on that cross anymore as it is merely a symbol of death and a cursed thing in the eyes of God.

Galatians 3:13-14 (KJV) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.[/b]

 

[Orthodoxy]

The notion that works save is hogwash.

Who said that?

How many Sundays do we have to go to church?

I think if you entered the Holy Orthodox Church then dropped dead God would honor that.

[quote:db35d]What if we miss 1, 2, or 3?

What if you attended that many?

Who decides?

The Church is the final authority. The Church requests your presents and wants you to "fellowship with the brethren" if you are not already. Who said feasting and celebrating the life of Jesus Christ is a work?

How many people do we have to help?

Jesus said "if you help one of these my brethren you have helped me."

20, 100? 1,000?

That would be "nice".

The apostle said that some will enter heaven "only as one escaping through the flames." 1 Co. 3: "he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."

Do you really want to enter the loving fire of God covered with chaff?

It is therefore obvious that works do not save because one barely escaping the flames obviously did not do as many works as those who gave up their lives for Christ. There are obviously degrees of heaven or sitting at the right hand of the father would not be coveted, nor would Paul make any distinction between those barely escaping the flames and others who bear much fruit.

Why is one that gets paid regardless of what others get paid be complaining about the rewards of others? If one produces no fruit by God's choice but is "attached to the vine" then will he escape the fire when pruned? It would be prudent it appears to me to be prepared to stand in the fire of God.

Only receiving the Holy Spirit saves us as Jesus tells us in John 17:3, "Now this is eternal life: that they may know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." He makes it crystal clear. Works come from the Holy Spirit which nudges us to give back what Jesus gave us. Jesus also talks about degrees of heaven in Luke 7:47, "Therefore I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven-for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven for little, loves little."

God gives each person no mear than he/she can bear. Some will produce much fruit, others little. But as paul said, they will still be saved, but just barely escaping through the flames.

[/quote:db35d]

Which leads to "judge not lest ye be judged with the same judgement". Jesus Christ

One could also say if one never judges any other person he will not be judged.

Orthodoxy

 

[farley]

D46,

Excellent!!!

Another passage also references a result of one's 'good' works...

James 5:19-20 ESV
(19) My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back,
(20) let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

In Christ,

farley

 

[SputnikBoy]

The notion that works save is hogwash.

Who on this board has ever said that works saves? You, Heidi, are the only one who keeps the works=salvation thing going. Is it a hobby of yours or something?

How many Sundays do we have to go to church? What if we miss 1, 2, or 3? Who decides?

Well, I don't want to get into this issue yet again, but God never asked us to make a holy day out of Sunday to begin with. The RCC did that. I don't think God will take offence if you don't make Sunday your Sabbath, Heidi.

How many people do we have to help? 20, 100? 1,000?

The amount of people shouldn't be the issue. The issue should be that we do so whenever the opportunity arises.

The apostle said that some will enter heaven "only as one escaping through the flames." 1 Co. 3: "he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."

Um ...so?

It is therefore obvious that works do not save because one barely escaping the flames obviously did not do as many works as those who gave up their lives for Christ. There are obviously degrees of heaven or sitting at the right hand of the father would not be coveted, nor would Paul make any distinction between those barely escaping the flames and others who bear much fruit.

What are you getting at, Heidi? Do YOU even know?

Only receiving the Holy Spirit saves us as Jesus tells us in John 17:3, "Now this is eternal life: that they may know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." He makes it crystal clear. Works come from the Holy Spirit which nudges us to give back what Jesus gave us. Jesus also talks about degrees of heaven in Luke 7:47, "Therefore I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven-for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven for little, loves little."

But you acknowledge yourself, Heidi, that the Holy Spirit is the catalyst for one's good works. So what is your argument?

God gives each person no mear than he/she can bear. Some will produce much fruit, others little. But as paul said, they will still be saved, but just barely escaping through the flames.

But you don't have a problem with good works it seems ...? I'm confused with your reasoning. And, what about all of those scriptures, Heidi, that make reference to the notion that those who love God will keep His commandments? What do we do with them?

 

[Merry Menagerie]

You're brave Heidi and I'm with you 100%!!!

Works don't save - for if they could, we wouldn't need a saviour...because we'd be all working our way to heaven!

 

[SputnikBoy]

You're brave Heidi and I'm with you 100%!!!

Works don't save - for if they could, we wouldn't need a saviour...because we'd be all working our way to heaven!

What's with you guys who can't differentiate between obedience and works? If you love me, keep my commandments. Seems pretty clear.

 

[von]

Where does everyone keep coming up with if you don't believe OSAS then you believe you are saved by works. Who on here believes that works save you? The only people I know that believe that are the Amish. Are there any Amish on here? Don't think so!

 

[SputnikBoy]

Where does everyone keep coming up with if you don't believe OSAS then you believe you are saved by works. Who on here believes that works save you? The only people I know that believe that are the Amish. Are there any Amish on here? Don't think so!

This is a 'Heidi thing', von.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

You're brave Heidi and I'm with you 100%!!!

Works don't save - for if they could, we wouldn't need a saviour...because we'd be all working our way to heaven!

What's with you guys who can't differentiate between obedience and works? If you love me, keep my commandments. Seems pretty clear.

Ok Sputnik - whatever you say ;)

 

[SputnikBoy]

[quote="Merry Menagerie":aeb4a]You're brave Heidi and I'm with you 100%!!!

Works don't save - for if they could, we wouldn't need a saviour...because we'd be all working our way to heaven!

What's with you guys who can't differentiate between obedience and works? If you love me, keep my commandments. Seems pretty clear.

Ok Sputnik - whatever you say ;)

No cause to be smug, Menag. It wasn't I who said that. It was Jesus Himself. John 14:15. Furthermore, we're also told ... 'the man who says, "I know Him," but does not do what He commands is a liar and the truth is not in him.' 1 John 2:4 Now, assuming that both you and I know (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) that those and other similar texts don't REALLY mean what they say, how would you explain then to a Christian novice what they DO actually mean? :smt017 [/quote:aeb4a]

 

[Heidi]

The notion that works save is hogwash.

Who said that?

How many Sundays do we have to go to church?

I think if you entered the Holy Orthodox Church then dropped dead God would honor that.

[quote:cdbcc]What if we miss 1, 2, or 3?

What if you attended that many?

[quote:cdbcc]Who decides?

The Church is the final authority. The Church requests your presents and wants you to "fellowship with the brethren" if you are not already. Who said feasting and celebrating the life of Jesus Christ is a work?

How many people do we have to help?

Jesus said "if you help one of these my brethren you have helped me."

20, 100? 1,000?

That would be "nice".

The apostle said that some will enter heaven "only as one escaping through the flames." 1 Co. 3: "he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."

Do you really want to enter the loving fire of God covered with chaff?

It is therefore obvious that works do not save because one barely escaping the flames obviously did not do as many works as those who gave up their lives for Christ. There are obviously degrees of heaven or sitting at the right hand of the father would not be coveted, nor would Paul make any distinction between those barely escaping the flames and others who bear much fruit.

Why is one that gets paid regardless of what others get paid be complaining about the rewards of others? If one produces no fruit by God's choice but is "attached to the vine" then will he escape the fire when pruned? It would be prudent it appears to me to be prepared to stand in the fire of God.

Only receiving the Holy Spirit saves us as Jesus tells us in John 17:3, "Now this is eternal life: that they may know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." He makes it crystal clear. Works come from the Holy Spirit which nudges us to give back what Jesus gave us. Jesus also talks about degrees of heaven in Luke 7:47, "Therefore I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven-for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven for little, loves little."

God gives each person no mear than he/she can bear. Some will produce much fruit, others little. But as paul said, they will still be saved, but just barely escaping through the flames.

Which leads to "judge not lest ye be judged with the same judgement". Jesus Christ

One could also say if one never judges any other person he will not be judged.

Orthodoxy[/quote:cdbcc][/quote:cdbcc]

So what is the magic number of works that save us, Orhtodox? :o Who decides? You? Where is the magic number given to us in the bible? If a person received the Holy Spirit, then dies 2 days later, is he saved? Is Jesus's power not enough? What's the criteria?

Who do you think motivates us to do anything? The tooth fairy or our wonderful nature? Who do you think is in charge of our lives? Us? The devil? Or God? If God is in charge of our lives why would he keep us from good works? :o

 

[Collier]

Heidi:I don't want to get this off topic, but allow me to ask the following question: is baptism a work we do?

 

[Heidi]

Heidi:I don't want to get this off topic, but allow me to ask the following question: is baptism a work we do?

Please answer my questions first and then I'll answer yours.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

[quote="Merry Menagerie":e20f0]You're brave Heidi and I'm with you 100%!!!

Works don't save - for if they could, we wouldn't need a saviour...because we'd be all working our way to heaven!

What's with you guys who can't differentiate between obedience and works? If you love me, keep my commandments. Seems pretty clear.

Ok Sputnik - whatever you say ;)

No cause to be smug, Menag. It wasn't I who said that. It was Jesus Himself. John 14:15. Furthermore, we're also told ... 'the man who says, "I know Him," but does not do what He commands is a liar and the truth is not in him.' 1 John 2:4 Now, assuming that both you and I know (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) that those and other similar texts don't REALLY mean what they say, how would you explain then to a Christian novice what they DO actually mean? :smt017

[/quote:e20f0]

I know what the bible says sputnik, but I also now WHAT ELSE the bible says and what the holy Spirit is for and what it means to be a 'new creation'.

 

[Collier]

Heidi:You have not asked me any questions!!!!!! Therefore, I respectfully request that you answer mine and if you have any for me then ask and I will answer. Take care.

 

[Orthodoxy]

Heidi,

So what is the magic number of works that save us, Orhtodox?

Zero, A Christian is saved by His life through grace. What number of work do you condemn me for? Is there a number of works I can do for God in His name that will keep me out of heaven? It appears you are telling me if I do work for God He will not save me.

Who decides?

You and cj, I think. :smt102

You?

Not me, I do not want the job. You can be the judge but I will leave it up to the Church. The Church defines the criteria and requirements of those being "saved". Act 2:47

Where is the magic number given to us in the bible?

What did Jesus say? I gave you one scripture but it appears you deny that voice of God.

If a person received the Holy Spirit, then dies 2 days later, is he saved?

Only if he does no work.

Is Jesus's power not enough?

Yes it is unless he does a good work, then he is out.

What's the criteria?

No work allowed.

Who do you think motivates us to do anything?

The love of God motivates me.

The tooth fairy or our wonderful nature?

I dont know the tooth fairy, well I do, I am he. When did I ever admit to a "wonderful nature"? I am a bitter angry man. I am certain you are much more spiritual that I, a sinner.

Who do you think is in charge of our lives?

According to the bible your bishop in the Church.

Us?

Us to me is the body of the Holy Orthodox Church. I submit and obey "the Church" the corperate body of like minded believers. Who is in charge of your life? Probably you.

Here let the bible speak to you:

Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Your bishop is in charge according to the bible. My Bishop's name is His Grace the right reverance Tihkon, Diocese of the West.

The devil?

Or God?

Let me answer these words with the words of the saints, the founders and holders of the faith.

Saint Ignatius to the Trallians 1st Century Christian Martyr Student of St. John

Written to Deacons of the Church, “And do ye reverence them as Christ Jesus, of whose place they are the keepers, even as the bishop is the representative of the Father of all things, and the presbyters are the sanhedrim of God, and assembly of the apostles of Christ. Apart from these there is no elect Church, no congregation of holy ones, no assembly of saints.â€Â

Saint Ignatius to the Trallians 1st Century Christian Martyr Student of St. John

Written to the Whole Church, “He that is within the altar is pure, but he that is without is not pure; that is, he who does anything apart from the bishop, and presbytery, and deacons, such a man is not pure in his conscience.â€Â

Here we see plainly in the early Church that the “Body†can do nothing apart from the appointed authority given by Jesus in the Church.

Ignatius to the Magnesians 1st Century Christian Martyr Student of St. John

Written to the Whole Church, “It is fitting, then, not only to be called Christians, but to be so in reality. For it is not the being called so, but the being really so, that renders a man blessed. To those who indeed talk of the bishop, but do all things without him, will He who is the true and first Bishop, and the only High Priest by nature, declare, "Why call ye Me Lord, and do not the things which I say? " For such persons seem to me not possessed of a good conscience, but to be simply dissemblers and hypocrites.â€Â


Ignatius to the Trallians 1st Century Christian Martyr Student of St. John

And do ye also reverence your bishop as Christ Himself, according as the blessed apostles have enjoined you. He that is within the altar is pure, wherefore also he is obedient to the bishop and presbyters: but he that is without is one that does anything apart from the bishop, the presbyters, and the deacons. Such a person is defiled in his conscience, and is worse than an infidel. For what is the bishop but one who beyond all others possesses all power and authority, so far as it is possible for a man to possess it, who according to his ability has been made an imitator of the Christ Of God? And what is the presbytery but a sacred assembly, the counsellors and assessors of the bishop? And what are the deacons but imitators of the angelic powers, fulfilling a pure and blameless ministry unto him, as the holy Stephen did to the blessed James, Timothy and Linus to Paul, Anencletus and Clement to Peter? He, therefore, that will not yield obedience to such, must needs be one utterly without God, an impious man who despises Christ, and depreciates His appointments.

One utterly without God, an impious man who despises Christ, and depreciates His appointments would be one that is lead by a demon.

If God is in charge of our lives why would he keep us from good works?

Works save now? I thought I was not allowed to work joyously for God?

Again, what work for God are you saying will hinder my salvation the Kingdom of God?

Orthodoxy

 

[von]

I would like to ask what does the 25th chapter of Matthew mean to you folk who think you have to do nothing for the Lord?
I'm beginning to think that OSAS people really have no true committment to Christ. I'm reminded of people who won't work for a living and want a free ride. There are not going to be a bunch of hand outs to get into Heaven.
Are you trying to convince people that they believe works get you to Heaven? I have not heard one person say that. I can tell you this though, works don't get you to heaven but the lack thereof may keep you out, according to this scripture.