Wright Justification and Imputation?

[RandyK]

This is another thorny issue like discussion of the Trinity. I can back away if it becomes too controversial. I posted the following on another forum today. There may be some here interested in the subject? Part I is about Justification, Part II will be about Imputation.

I was having a discussion with my brother over the last several days on the subject of Justification and on the New View on Paul and on Justification being put forward by NT Wright. It's causing a storm among theologians including calls of "heresy."

The traditional Reformed approach sees Justification as being your typtical application of Christ's atonement as a way of replacing our own inept efforts at Salvation. By contrast NT Wright downplays Paul's statements on Justification by Faith Alone by declaring that in his time the Jews had no negativity towards Self-Made Works.

I'm paraphrasing here, and since Wright's position is considered obscure and nebulus it is difficult to characterize and be accurate. Bear that in mind. So, the following is part of the explanation of my view of Justification and "Works" to my brother. I am pro-Reformed positions, but not as anti-Works as many of the Reformers were....

My own view is not negative towards "doing works." We do works as part of the covenant terms. A covenant is an agreement between at least 2 parties, requiring certain reciprocal things.

Under the Law of Moses, Israel, in order to be part of the agreement, had to do about 613 things. God would then make them part of His Covenant, and then bless or curse them depending on how faithful or unfaithful they were in their works.

Under the New Covenant we are required not to do the 613 things of the Law of Moses, but rather, do the things Christ requires of us to be part of his covenant. We must believe in him, that he is the Son of God, and turn our lives over to operate in and like his life. In a practical sense we do things that are obviously moral under the Law without the trappings of Temple, Priest, and Sacrifice.

So Works are not a bad thing. They make us part of a covenant, whether it be of Moses or of Jesus. The only covenant in effect now is Jesus, and so what we must *do* to be part of this covenant is obey his commandments and live in him.

This is one of two parts of Jewish hope, as I understand it. This is the Jewish believer's hope for personal fidelity to Christ as an individual. What is different here, as opposed to the Law, is that under the Law Israel was blessed for compliance by experiencing national blessings and deliverance from enemies. But it was not Eternal Life.

By contrast, compliance with Christ's covenant brought not only the blessing of God's favor, but also the promise of Eternal Life. Eternal Life came only by Christ's Work, and not by our own acts of obedience to his Covenant. We obtain the benefit of Christ's work by obeying his commandments, thus demonstrating our faith in him.

So, one part of the Jewish hope came for the Christian individuals who sought compliance with Christ's covenant. The other part of Jewish Hope has to do with the hope of the nation to be delivered from their oppressors. Since Israel had only been externally in compliance with the Law of Moses, but actually, depraved under that Covenant, they expected salvation but should've expected curses.

The hope of Israel continues to this day to return to God's blessings out of compliance with deeds that God requires. I'm not sure Protestants reject all works completely, as even Luther promoted the 10 Commandments as something we should do.

But Luther placed very little onus on human initiative, thinking that somehow in being passive with respect to works somehow Christ will operate when we trust in him to instill his own life into us. We do good but trust him to make our works truly good. I hope I have this right?

Faith involves an affirmation of Christ's covenant that comes through faith. And that faith involves the necessity of a transition from our own independent lives to the spiritual life of living in Christ.

It requires faith as well as obedience to get there. We have to believe Christ's new life even exists, and that Christ will give that life to us. But we also have to demonstrate our faith by acting in compliance with Christ's moral commands.

 

[for_his_glory]

We are justified by faith in God and His Son Christ Jesus as justification refers to God declaring a person righteous in His sight. Justification can not be earned by good deeds as it is a gift of God which God imputes to believers. Faith is the only action through which justification is received.


Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

1Cor 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[donadams]

We are justified by faith in God and His Son Christ Jesus as justification refers to God declaring a person righteous in His sight. Justification can not be earned by good deeds as it is a gift of God which God imputes to believers. Faith is the only action through which justification is received.


Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

1Cor 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

faith and baptism mk 16:16

 

[donadams]

what about perseverance?

how is one maintained in a state of grace till death?

thks

 

[RandyK]

faith and baptism mk 16:16

We can consider Water Baptism as a form of doing works under the New Covenant that demonstrate our faith. That puts us in compliance with the terms of the New Covenant. We show our faith by our obedience to Christ. And Christ provides us with Justification by his own works.

I don't personally see Water Baptism as a necessary work to demonstrate our faith. But it is certainly capable of demonstrating our faith through legitimate works.

Again, Justification came only by Christ's works, and not anything we did to obtain it. The only thing we can do to obtain Justification is demonstrate our faith in what Christ did by showing by our faith legitimate expressions of that faith.

True faith must show that we've repented of living independent lives, and have determined to show we are now living in Christ's spiritual life. We are meeting the terms of Christ's contract with us without earning Eternal Life on our own.

It's like saying, "If you come to the farm I'll give you a dozen eggs free of charge." You have to show your faith by coming to the farm, and this qualifies you to have the eggs free of charge.

You can't earn Salvation. But you can certainly meet the terms Christ requires in order for you to receive it. You must come to him and show that you've repented of your own ways, turning your life over to him.

 

[donadams]

We can consider Water Baptism as a form of doing works under the New Covenant that demonstrate our faith. That puts us in compliance with the terms of the New Covenant. We show our faith by our obedience to Christ. And Christ provides us with Justification by his own works.

I don't personally see Water Baptism as a necessary work to demonstrate our faith. But it is certainly capable of demonstrating our faith through legitimate works.

Again, Justification came only by Christ's works, and not anything we did to obtain it. The only thing we can do to obtain Justification is demonstrate our faith in what Christ did by showing by our faith legitimate expressions of that faith.

True faith must show that we've repented of living independent lives, and have determined to show we are now living in Christ's spiritual life. We are meeting the terms of Christ's contract with us without earning Eternal Life on our own.

It's like saying, "If you come to the farm I'll give you a dozen eggs free of charge." You have to show your faith by coming to the farm, and this qualifies you to have the eggs free of charge.

You can't earn Salvation. But you can certainly meet the terms Christ requires in order for you to receive it. You must come to him and show that you've repented of your own ways, turning your life over to him.

paul don't consider it a work

titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

Note 1) Saved by both washing (baptismal regeneration) and the renewing of the Spirit! (saved means justified not full eternal salvation, but part of the process.

Note 2) this verse shows that baptism is NOT A WORK, "not of works righteousness" but God's work of a new creation in Christ!
(ez36:25-27)

Note 3) our bodies washed
(outward water) heb 10:22, and souls renewed by the spirit
(inward grace) acts 22:16 heb 2:11

'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30).

Jn 3;5 cannot enter
2 pet 1:11 entrance administered
Jn 3:22 went to the river to baptize
Jn 4:1 baptism
mk 16:16 baptism
matt 28:19 baptism


The Sacraments are NOT about man’s work. They are the work of Christ and the Holy Spirit. They are how Christ dispenses grace to us and how we obtain union with God.

The seven sacraments are the signs and instruments by which the Holy Spirit spreads the grace of Christ the head throughout the Church which is his Body.

Seated at the right hand of the Father" and pouring out the Holy Spirit on his Body which is the Church, Christ now acts through the sacraments he instituted to communicate his grace.

They are actions of the Holy Spirit at work in his Body, the Church.

They are efficacious because in them Christ himself is at work: it is he who baptizes, he who acts in his sacraments in order to communicate the grace that each sacrament signifies.

 

[RandyK]

paul don't consider it a work

titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

Note 1) Saved by both washing (baptismal regeneration) and the renewing of the Spirit! (saved means justified not full eternal salvation, but part of the process.

Note 2) this verse shows that baptism is NOT A WORK, "not of works righteousness" but God's work of a new creation in Christ!
(ez36:25-27)

Note 3) our bodies washed
(outward water) heb 10:22, and souls renewed by the spirit
(inward grace) acts 22:16 heb 2:11

'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30).

Jn 3;5 cannot enter
2 pet 1:11 entrance administered
Jn 3:22 went to the river to baptize
Jn 4:1 baptism
mk 16:16 baptism
matt 28:19 baptism


The Sacraments are NOT about man’s work. They are the work of Christ and the Holy Spirit. They are how Christ dispenses grace to us and how we obtain union with God.

The seven sacraments are the signs and instruments by which the Holy Spirit spreads the grace of Christ the head throughout the Church which is his Body.

Seated at the right hand of the Father" and pouring out the Holy Spirit on his Body which is the Church, Christ now acts through the sacraments he instituted to communicate his grace.

They are actions of the Holy Spirit at work in his Body, the Church.

They are efficacious because in them Christ himself is at work: it is he who baptizes, he who acts in his sacraments in order to communicate the grace that each sacrament signifies.

The problem is, as I see it, what we mean by the words we use. Words are flexible and can mean different things, depending on how the user of the those words intend them to be understood.

In other words, this is full of semantical issues. And we could argue this all the way until the sun goes down with you meaning one thing and I meaning another thing using the same words.

The way I'm using "works" is a common way of using it to indicate something we do to accomplish something that requires some effort. Water Baptism requires us to take the effort to go down to the river, get in, allow ourselves to get dunked, and then come back out proclaiming that the act indicates our commitment to live in Christ. That is work by one definition.

You take issue with that perhaps because Paul denies that is a work that justifies us. That is another common biblical use of the term "work," which is to perform some task in order to justify us unto Eternal Life. Onlly Christ could do that work, and no effort we make could accomplish that. That is how Paul also used the term "work."

Your use and my use of the term sound like they conflict, but they don't have to. Jesus declared that even choosing to believe in him was a "work"--it took effort to believe, which requires a commitment to follow him, obey him, and abide in him. In this sense we do some works, but Christ is the one we abide in, indicating that only he could justify us.

Beyond this I'm disinterested in the typical argumentation. It just tosses everything I've said here under the bus and goes on to make the same kinds of arguments.

 

[for_his_glory]

faith and baptism mk 16:16

Yes, faith and Baptism as there is a big difference between John's actual water baptism and that of the Baptism of Christ for receiving the Holy Spirit.

 

[donadams]

Yes, faith and Baptism as there is a big difference between John's actual water baptism and that of the Baptism of Christ for receiving the Holy Spirit.

who administers this "baptism" of yours?

 

[for_his_glory]

who administers this "baptism" of yours?

This is the Baptism of Christ for receiving the Holy Spirit that is different from John's baptism.


Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire, (fire means empowerment)

Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Seven works of the Holy Spirit in sanctification
1. Transforms us - Romans 12:1-2; 2Corinthians 3:18
2. Convicts us of sin - John 16:8-11
3. Guides us into all truths - John 14:26
4. Empowers us to proclaim Christ - Acts 1-8; Ephesians 1:13
5. Gives us Spiritual gifts - 1Corinthians 12
6. Empowers us to worship - Ephesians 3:14-19
7. Leads us - Galatians 5:25

We put on Jesus by the renewal of our mind, body and soul through Jesus life, death and resurrection by which we can reconcile ourselves back to Gods grace and mercy through His Salvation of Spiritual renewal and Spiritual rebirth of spirit. We now have the mind of Christ as joint heirs with Jesus as we walk in the path of Jesus and not our own path anymore. John 3:3-21

Sin separates us from God because God is a spirit and can only recognize his own children by what spirit is living in their hearts. We have to renew, rebirth - born again, Gods Spirit within us in order to be called a child of God and see the kingdom of heaven. We now put off the old man (flesh) and put on the new man (Spirit), Colossians 3:1-17. We are renewed by the word of God and through the Holy Spirit teaching us of all things, John 14:26.

Acts 2:38,39 When we repent of our sins and ask Jesus into our hearts we are also receiving the promise of God that his Holy Spirit will come and dwell in our hearts and teach us of all things we need to learn, John 14:26. The baptism that Peter was talking about in Acts 2:38 was a Spiritual rebirth through the word of God. Some people think it is being dunked or sprinkled with water the way John the Baptist did and there is nothing wrong with that for it is an outward appearance to man that you have repented and received Jesus and the Holy Spirit into your life, Matthew 3:11, but Jesus himself never baptized with water, John 4:2, for the baptism of Jesus was for receiving the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) that helps us to learn all truths and to know the will of the Father, 1 Thessalonians 4:1-12.

After repentance and the Spiritual rebirth, John 3:5-7, we are then baptized in the Holy Spirit and fire through that of Christ baptism according to Acts 2:38, 39, Matthew 3:11.

 

[donadams]

This is the Baptism of Christ for receiving the Holy Spirit that is different from John's baptism.


Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire, (fire means empowerment)

Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Seven works of the Holy Spirit in sanctification
1. Transforms us - Romans 12:1-2; 2Corinthians 3:18
2. Convicts us of sin - John 16:8-11
3. Guides us into all truths - John 14:26
4. Empowers us to proclaim Christ - Acts 1-8; Ephesians 1:13
5. Gives us Spiritual gifts - 1Corinthians 12
6. Empowers us to worship - Ephesians 3:14-19
7. Leads us - Galatians 5:25

We put on Jesus by the renewal of our mind, body and soul through Jesus life, death and resurrection by which we can reconcile ourselves back to Gods grace and mercy through His Salvation of Spiritual renewal and Spiritual rebirth of spirit. We now have the mind of Christ as joint heirs with Jesus as we walk in the path of Jesus and not our own path anymore. John 3:3-21

Sin separates us from God because God is a spirit and can only recognize his own children by what spirit is living in their hearts. We have to renew, rebirth - born again, Gods Spirit within us in order to be called a child of God and see the kingdom of heaven. We now put off the old man (flesh) and put on the new man (Spirit), Colossians 3:1-17. We are renewed by the word of God and through the Holy Spirit teaching us of all things, John 14:26.

Acts 2:38,39 When we repent of our sins and ask Jesus into our hearts we are also receiving the promise of God that his Holy Spirit will come and dwell in our hearts and teach us of all things we need to learn, John 14:26. The baptism that Peter was talking about in Acts 2:38 was a Spiritual rebirth through the word of God. Some people think it is being dunked or sprinkled with water the way John the Baptist did and there is nothing wrong with that for it is an outward appearance to man that you have repented and received Jesus and the Holy Spirit into your life, Matthew 3:11, but Jesus himself never baptized with water, John 4:2, for the baptism of Jesus was for receiving the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) that helps us to learn all truths and to know the will of the Father, 1 Thessalonians 4:1-12.

After repentance and the Spiritual rebirth, John 3:5-7, we are then baptized in the Holy Spirit and fire through that of Christ baptism according to Acts 2:38, 39, Matthew 3:11.

please explore how it is that the apostles in the church administer the new birth?

matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jn 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

Jn 4:2 Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,

2 Corinthians 8:19
And not that only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of your ready mind:

2 pet 1;11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

thks

 

[for_his_glory]

please explore how it is that the apostles in the church administer the new birth?

matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jn 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

Jn 4:2 Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,

2 Corinthians 8:19
And not that only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of your ready mind:

2 pet 1;11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

thks

The new birth did not come until Jesus ascended up to sit at the right hand of the Father as then He sent the Holy Spirit down to indwell all who believe and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. What you are not seeing is that John's baptism in actual water was only an outward appearance to others that you repented of your sins only preparing the way of the Lord (Messiah) for He had not come yet. John's ministry of baptizing others in water began when he was around 30 and only lasted about six months until Jesus came to be baptized by John, even though Jesus had no sin.

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire, (fire means empowerment)

Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

John 3:5 never mentions the word baptize, but says only by being born of water and spirit, which means water as living water (word of God) that no one can enter into the kingdom of God unless they are Spiritually renewed (born again) by the hearing of the word, which is Christ Jesus and by the Holy Spirit that came on them in the OT and indwells us in the NT. Many do read into the passage a preconceived idea or theology, but baptism is never mentioned in this verse. Word is living water as described in John 4:10; 7:38; 1John 5:6; Jeremiah 2:13; Isaiah 55:1-3 to name a few.

If salvation came by actual immersion in water Jesus clearly could have simply stated, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is baptized by being immersed in water and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Further, if Jesus had made such a statement, He would have contradicted numerous other Bible passages that make it clear that salvation is by faith (John 3:16; John 3:36; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5).

We are only justified by God's grace through faith, not actual water.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.