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Cessationism- have tongues and prophecy ceased, or are they still active?

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MarkT said:
Knowledge doesn't have a gender. Neither does prophecy. But that is what Paul is talking about.
Click to expand...
gnósis: a knowing, knowledge
Original Word: γνῶσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: gnósis
Phonetic Spelling: (gno'-sis)
Short Definition: knowledge, doctrine, wisdom
Definition: knowledge, doctrine, wisdom.

prophéteia: prophecy
Original Word: προφητεία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: prophéteia
Phonetic Spelling: (prof-ay-ti'-ah)
Short Definition: prophecy
Definition: prophecy, prophesying; the gift of communicating and enforcing revealed truth.

1 Cor 13:8~~New American Standard Bible
Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.


 
MarkT said:
Knowledge doesn't have a gender. Neither does prophecy. But that is what Paul is talking about.
Click to expand...
I would agree with your observation. While nouns in grammar do tend to have a gender. Which does not contradict the fact that knowledge, gnosis, does not have a gender.
Ancient Greek nouns
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_nouns
Updated: 2017-08-15T06:26Z
In Ancient Greek, all nouns are classified according to grammatical gender (masculine, feminine, or neuter) and are used in a number (singular, dual, or plural). According to their function in a sentence, their form changes to one of the five cases (nominative, vocative, accusative, genitive, or dative). The set of forms that a noun will take for each case and number is determined by the declension that it follows.
 
reba said:
That was not the question the questions was


ADDED: i see you use the New American Standard Bible do you believe it is complete ?
Click to expand...
I will try to be as clear as possible...................!No!. I don't consider the NASB TRANSLATION to be complete and perfect. Only the original and inspired Word is complete and perfect.

It sure seems to me that my first answer to this was clear?
 
gr8grace3 said:
I will try to be as clear as possible...................!No!. I don't consider the NASB TRANSLATION to be complete and perfect. Only the original and inspired Word is complete and perfect.

It sure seems to me that my first answer to this was clear?
Click to expand...
So when you quote NASB it is not complete correct?
 
Sister Christian said:
I would agree with your observation. While nouns in grammar do tend to have a gender. Which does not contradict the fact that knowledge, gnosis, does not have a gender.
Ancient Greek nouns
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_nouns
Updated: 2017-08-15T06:26Z
In Ancient Greek, all nouns are classified according to grammatical gender (masculine, feminine, or neuter) and are used in a number (singular, dual, or plural). According to their function in a sentence, their form changes to one of the five cases (nominative, vocative, accusative, genitive, or dative). The set of forms that a noun will take for each case and number is determined by the declension that it follows.
Click to expand...
You do know that this does NOT help your case right?


In case you missed it......"the perfect" is an adjective. Not a noun. Since "the perfect" is an adjective and no subject was mentioned before "the Perfect".........The adjective(the perfect) becomes the subject.......essentially a noun.

Since "the perfect", as an adjective, has no determiner before it is mentioned, the adjective "changes form/inflects" into a noun. And the neuter gender of "The perfect" is an inanimate object(the written word). If it was masculine or feminine it would be an animate object (the return of the Lord).

1 Cor 13:10~~New American Standard Bible
but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
 
gr8grace3 said:
You do know that this does NOT help your case right?


In case you missed it......"the perfect" is an adjective. Not a noun. Since "the perfect" is an adjective and no subject was mentioned before "the Perfect".........The adjective(the perfect) becomes the subject.......essentially a noun.

Since "the perfect", as an adjective, has no determiner before it is mentioned, the adjective "changes form/inflects" into a noun. And the neuter gender of "The perfect" is an inanimate object(the written word). If it was masculine or feminine it would be an animate object (the return of the Lord)........And to be very clear.....If the perfect was the return of the Lord, 'the perfect' would be masculine.

1 Cor 13:10~~New American Standard Bible
but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
Click to expand...
 
gr8grace3 said:
None........You think/believe that we will have the fullness of deity when His kingdom comes(the perfect)?


All that were originally penned in those languages.


That is THE point Jim. Translations/transliterations are imperfect..............the original languages are NOT. And folks are dealing with the imperfect translation rather than dealing with the original INSPIRED word of τέλειον.

"The perfect" It is a translation from the original(inspired word.) Some folks want to try to force 'the perfect' to mean what ever fits their fancy with the TRANSLATION(imperfect) of the original inspired word(perfect).

The neuter gender alone for "the perfect"/τέλειον, tells us that Paul has a THING in mind.........the completed canon.

8Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away
9For we know in part and we prophesy in part; (because they did not have all the pieces put together yet)
10but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.( the completed canon, the temporary gifts will cease,they only had parts)
11When I was a child, I used to speak(the gift of tongues) like a child, think(the gift of knowledge) like a child, reason(the gift of wisdom/prophecy) like a child; when I became(the perfect comes/finished canon to form all doctrines needed to fulfill Gods plan for our lives) a man, I did away( the temporary gifts ceased) with childish things.
Click to expand...
 
we think different on this i do not expect you to see my point..
I believe that which is perfect is Christ .. you believe it to be the original Scriptures .. while quoting scriptures you believe are not perfect as if they are.. We will stay talking in circles so i will bow out.. You answered just as i expected you would...
Thanks for the conversation and the politeness :)
 
FreeGrace said:
gr8grace3 said: ↑
"The perfect" is Gods finished word to us."

How about the neuter gender. Which renders the idea of "the perfect" referring to Christ null and void.


We all hope you are aware that "the perfect" is neuter gender. Not masculine gender.
Click to expand...

You really are a blessing. I just got sucked down the rabbit trail, so the nuts and the bolts of it all could get swept under the rug.

Nobody will deal with this.

2 Tim 4:3~~New American Standard Bible
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
 
reba said:
we think different on this i do not expect you to see my point..
I believe that which is perfect is Christ .. you believe it to be the original Scriptures .. while quoting scriptures you believe are not perfect as if they are.. We will stay talking in circles so i will bow out.. You answered just as i expected you would...
Thanks for the conversation and the politeness :)
Click to expand...
Reba.........for every English word we see in any given translation, we have the original inspired word to look at and study. I don't, nor should anyone rely on "the perfect" and what we think that means in English to form our doctrines. We need,need,need to go back to the original inspired word and see how that word lines up with how we see " the perfect" from our English understanding.

We are called to be perfect like the Father. Matt 5:48.

And John says that if we say we have no sin the truth is not in us.1 John 1:8

The English language sees a contradiction in these verses. The original word does not.
 
gr8grace3 said:
In around 96 AD the Canon was complete/
Click to expand...
NOBODY in the NT was talking about "the canon."
PAUL was not talking about what was scripture and what wasn't in 1st Corinthians.
The subject of the close of the canon is NOWHERE to be found ANYWHERE in the New Testament.
Your argument has no basis in scripture.
There is absolutely no connection between the "last thing any apostle wrote" and that sentence in Paul's letter to the Corinthians.
 
MarkT said:
Re. tongues, Apparently when the twelve were gathered at the day of Pentecost, they spoke in tongues, and there were Jews from every nation who heard them, and each one heard in his own native language. So it was the Holy Spirit speaking through the apostles. And each man heard in his native language, which supports the proposition that the Bible is inspired by the Spirit so we can read it in our own language.
Click to expand...
That is not the only manner of speaking in tongues.
Paul also said: "He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself" (1Co 14:4)
That has nothing to do with other people hearing the words in their own language.

Paul also said: Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. (Rom 8:26)
and
1Co 14:14-15 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.

iakov the fool
 
And where people keep repeating that The Apocalypse was written in 95-96 AD...
It is highly contested.
66-68AD is much more likely.
The internal evidence (from the book itself) can go to this date just as easily.
IOW as Jerusalem was besieged by the Roman Army and the Temple was going to be destroyed.
 
gr8grace3 said:
gnósis: a knowing, knowledge
Original Word: γνῶσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: gnósis
Phonetic Spelling: (gno'-sis)
Short Definition: knowledge, doctrine, wisdom
Definition: knowledge, doctrine, wisdom.

prophéteia: prophecy
Original Word: προφητεία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: prophéteia
Phonetic Spelling: (prof-ay-ti'-ah)
Short Definition: prophecy
Definition: prophecy, prophesying; the gift of communicating and enforcing revealed truth.

1 Cor 13:8~~New American Standard Bible
Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
Click to expand...

Knowledge does not have a gender unless you are an ancient Greek. Apparently the ancient Greeks worshiped virtues like knowledge and they used personal forms (made statues) to represent those virtues. Other than that, I can't see any reason why your source gives knowledge a gender.

Certainly Paul did not associate knowledge with Athena the Greek goddess of knowledge and wisdom.

Anyways, again, the Bible is written in English. There is no reason to confuse ancient Greek thought and mythology with the English Bible.
 
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