Saying "no" to "the gifts of the Spirit" is a far cry from the 3 mentioned in 1 Cor 13:8. There are many more gifts of the Spirit that are absolutely still needed for the body of Christ to function properly. Rom 12:3-8 lists them.
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Cessationism- have tongues and prophecy ceased, or are they still active?
- Thread starter godsquadgeek
- Start date
That's not the issue. When the canon was completed, we HAVE everything we need to know all that God wants us to know until we enter eternity. Obviously, there is much more to learn, but while on earth, the canon provides everything we need for life (2 Pet 1:3). Peter wasn't referring to living in eternity, but to the "here and now"; earth.
The 3 communication gifts were no longer necessary when the canon was completed. Again, you've not dealt with the issue of the neuter gender. It cannot refer to Jesus Christ, or Paul was only semi-literate. But he was highly educated (per Porcius Festus in Acts 26:24). So he couldn't have been referring to Jesus Christ or His return in 1 Cor 13:10.
No one said it was referring to happening to the Lord. The issue has been that "the perfect" refers to the Lord's coming. And it did happen to us when the canon was competed.
No. For now, on earth, the "here and now", we have everything we need for life, per 2 Pet 1:3. The last part of that verse includes "godliness", which we also have in the "here and now", which is a direct reference to the indwelling Holy Spirit.
God's written Word, with the indwelling Holy Spirit IS everything we need for life and godliness, in the 'here and now'.
How would anyone know what Paul did or did not know? That's just a stretch. He was one of the writers of the canon.
And, btw, it's not just "a canon". It is THE canon, the canon of Scripture. And Paul was highly intelligent. He knew exactly what he was talking about. And because he used the neuter gender, he clearly and obviously could not have been referring to the Lord Jesus Christ's coming again in 1 Cor 13:10. Not possible.
Sometimes it can be hard to post a personal testimony .. THANKS
The gender of a single word means nothing when it comes to translating. We're talking grammar here, how it works in a sentence, not evidence. Your argument is a non Sequitur. It's not based on evidence or Scripture or anything Jesus said or anything the Apostles wrote.
The fact of gender, when considering a word in isolation, is of little importance to the student of the Greek New Testament. But in analyzing a sentence as a whole, gender may play a key role, especially when considered along with the adjectives, pronouns, and relative clauses that may be present. Taking note of the gender may alter altogether what a sentence may seem to be saying in English.
For example: "And receive...the sword of the spirit which is the word of God"( Eph 6:17). The word "sword" in Greek is feminine gender and the word "spirit" is neuter gender. So it is important in this sentence to find out what is the antecedent of the relative pronoun "which". (i.e. What is the "which" referring back to?) The word "which" in this sentence is neuter, therefore it is referring back to the word "spirit" and not "sword." Thus this sentence means: "And receive...the sword of the spirit which (spirit) is the word of God." www.ntgreek.org
It does not follow that if perfect is neuter gender that Paul does not have the second coming in mind when he says, 'When the perfect comes.' It absolutely does not follow that Paul is referring to the canon of Scripture. Paul had no knowledge of what would be included in the Bible. Never even mentioned the Bible.
We already know he is coming, so doesn't it make sense to say we will understand fully when he returns. That's what Paul said, "Now I know in part, then I shall understand fully" 1 Cor. 13:12
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If 'the perfect' is at the second coming. It neglects the contrast that Paul set up and the context.
8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.13But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
When the perfect(the complete scriptures for all doctrine/faith) comes and the partial (Temporary gifts of special knowledge and wisdom)is done away......... NOW faith,hope and love abide.
New American Standard Bible
for we walk by faith, not by sight
Faith and hope are done away at the coming of the Lord or our death........but love abides forever,Love never ends.
Heb 11:1~~New American Standard Bible
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Rom 8:24~~New American Standard Bible
For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?
Sister Christian
Member
No, he did not. The canon arrived long after the Apostles were with God.
I like your post. This is something that may be helpful to further this discussion. I love this site. So much to study.
Bible.Org What does “when the perfect comes” mean in 1 Corinthians 13:9-10?
Perhaps the following quotes from a couple of commentaries will help answer your question.
First from The Bible Knowledge Commentary:
13:9-10. As Paul explained it, the gift of knowledge (v. 8), essential as it was, was not exhaustive. The ability to prophesy, however crucial for the church’s life, was of limited scope. The gifts were temporary blessings in an imperfect age. One day they would give way to perfection, toward which all the gifts pointed. What Paul meant when he referred to the coming of perfection is the subject of considerable debate. One suggestion is that perfection described the completion of the New Testament. But verse 12 makes that interpretation unlikely. A few have suggested that this state of perfection will not be reached until the new heavens and new earth are established. Another point of view understands perfection to describe the state of the church when God’s program for it is consummated at the coming of Christ. There is much to commend this view, including the natural accord it enjoys with the illustration of growth and maturity which Paul used in the following verses.
13:11. Paul elsewhere described the purpose of gifts by an illustration employing the imagery of growth and maturity. According to Ephesians 4:11-16, the gifts were to be used to bring the church from a state of infancy to adult hood. The word translated “mature” in that passage (Eph. 4:13) is the word translated “perfection” (teleion) in 1 Corinthians 13:10. In the Ephesians passage, maturity is defined as “attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.” Such a state will obviously not exist until Christ’s second coming. It would appear that the same perspective was developed in this passage to the Corinthians. Paul applied the illustration to himself (cf. vv. 1-3). The threefold talking, thinking, and reasoning were probably meant to balance the thrice-mentioned gifts (v. 8). With the coming of adulthood, such gifts become passe Œ. Paul’s use of the word became (gegona, a perf. tense verb, probably proleptic; cf. Rom. 13:8; 1 Cor. 14:23) was of course to be understood in the context of the illustration. It does not indicate that he personally or the church collectively had yet arrived at that point (cf. Phil. 3:12). It would not, on the other hand, necessarily rule out a gradual obsolescence of certain gifts as the church progressed toward maturity.
13:12. A city like Corinth, famous for its bronze mirrors, would have particularly appreciated Paul’s final illustration. The perfection and imperfection mentioned in verse 10 were deftly likened to the contrasting images obtained by the indirect reflection of one’s face viewed in a bronze mirror and the same face when viewed directly. Such, Paul said, was the contrast between the imperfect time in which he then wrote and the perfect time which awaited him and the church when the partial reflection of the present would give way to the splendor of perfect vision. Then Paul would see God (cf. 15:28; 1 John 3:2) as God now saw Paul. Then partial knowledge (cf. 1 Cor. 8:1-3) would be displaced by the perfect knowledge of God.
13:13. Paul completed his three-paneled portrait of love (vv. 1-3, 4-7, 8-13) with a final triad: faith, hope, and love. Much discussion has focused on whether faith and hope were portrayed by Paul as being (with love) eternal. The solution is probably found in verse 7. Faith is an expression of love (the word “trusts,” pisteuei, v. 7, is the verb form of the noun “faith,” pistis), as is hope (cf. Gal. 5:5-6). Faith and hope, as manifestations of love, will endure eternally. So too everyone who follows the way of love (1 Cor. 14:1) finds “the most excellent way” (12:31b), because every individual characterized by love carries that mark eternally. The spiritual gifts will one day cease to exist, but love will endure forever.
(3) Priority of prophecy to tongues (14:1-25). Chapter 13 is one of the most sublime digressions in any letter in any language. But it was nonetheless a deviation from the central theme of gifts and their use by the church which Paul began in chapter 12 and then concluded in chapter 14. Paul had intimated in chapter 12 that the Corinthians were perverting the purpose of gifts from a unifying influence on the church to one fostering fragmentation and discord (esp. 12:21-25). A contributing factor to their factious spirit was the Corinthian pursuit of individual freedom and personal enhancement at the expense of other members of the body whose needs may have been trampled or ignored along the way. Manifestations of this self-centeredness affected each of the problem issues taken up since chapter 8.
The focal problem in the matter of the use and abuse of gifts seemed to be the Corinthian fascination with tongues, a gift which apparently lent itself most readily to perversion from something intended “for the common good” (12:7) to something employed for personal enhancement (14:4). Paul’s corrective was not to stifle the use of gifts (14:39; cf. 1 Thes. 5:19-20) but to urge that their use be regulated by love. The gifts of the Spirit should be controlled by the fruit of the Spirit, chief among which was love (Gal. 5:22). This would lead to exercising the gifts so they would benefit the church body as a whole (14:5) and also honor God (14:25, 33, 40). By way of illustration and correction, Paul compared and contrasted the Corinthians’ preoccupation with tongues with their apparent disinterest in prophecy.
In his study Bible, Charles Ryrie has the following to say about verse 11:
There are stages of growth within the present imperfect time before Christ’s return. After the church began, there was a period of immaturity, during which spectacular gifts were needed for growth and authentication (Heb. 2:3-4). With the completion of the NT and the growing maturity of the church, the need for such gifts disappeared.
We should note that Paul makes a distinction between the disappearance of the gifts of prophecy and knowledge and that of tongues. This is done using different Greek words and voices. With prophecy and knowledge, he used a word in the passive voice which meant “to be rendered inoperative.” Note also verse 9. But with tongues he used the middle voice and a word that meant “to cease.” The middle voice suggest that this gift would gradually die and disappear on its own. Probably because its primary purpose as a sign to the Jews (see chapter 14:20f) would cease after the fall of Jerusalem. This of course is debated.
Related Topics: Bibliology (The Written Word)
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Bible Hub scripture and commentary ◄ 1 Corinthians 13:10 ►
Sister Christian
Member
There was no canon in the early days of the church.
You would have to show proof of your remark. That the scripture is referring to what did not exist at the time the scripture was written. I.E. the canon, which is a list of books recognized as authoritative scripture.
For that to happen you should produce evidence of an apostle being present or having foresight of the culmination of the full canon in 393A.D. under the Council of Hippo.
brujaq
Member
I agree but why did you pick on those 3 ? You groan in the Spirit in deep prayer with wordless groans, right ? Romans 8:23 Romans 8:26 it is the same Spirit ..
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Sister Christian
Member
KJV (Public Domain)
1 Corinthians
Chapter 14
1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
1 Corinthians
Chapter 14
1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
Which is what translating is about. Know the genders. Paul would never use the neuter gender in reference to Jesus Christ.
The gender clearly indicates that Jesus Christ isn't the subject.
In "isolation"??? Why would anyone claim the word is in isolation? It isn't. It's in a sentence, which is in a paragraph.
OK.
What doesn't follow is your conclusion.
No. Of course Paul would have known that when he wrote, the canon was not complete. Why would he think that he was the last writer?
When the canon was completed, then we have ALL that God wants us to know until eternity.
iow, there is no more revelation to be revealed.
The canon was written over 1600 years. How can one say the canon "arrived long after..."??
Sister Christian
Member
Do you believe God can communicate in different ways to his son's and daughters in Christ?
Maybe you're not understanding what is meant by "canon". The complete canon is the complete writing of God's Word, or Scripture.
Yes, the early church had all of the OT. That much of the canon. But more was being written during the time of the early church.
That is shown from the verse in discussion. 1 Cor 13:10
Not true.
Those are the gifts in debate, from 1 Cor 13:8-10.
God has given us His FULL revelation for this life. But, yes, of course He does.
It doesn't negate it for me. The difference is then and now; "now I know in part, then I shall fully understand." Is Paul saying he will fully understand his letter when his letter is included in the Bible? The question is when will Paul fully understand?
Sister Christian
Member
Rather easily and in context of my prior question to your assertion the Biblical canon was what was being referred to in your post #217.
I have made bold and in blue that which I referred to in that context and as such is the object of query considering the canonization process of the new testament canon did not happen in the time of Paul so that his writings would, as you claim, refer to the closing of the canon, or that which did not exist in Paul's time.
Sister Christian
Member
Interestingly enough, I was thinking the same of you due to your remarks here.
Of this I am aware. However, that was not what was being stated in your remarks. You posited the statement that , "perfect", in the passage prophesying , when the perfect comes, was referring to the finished canon. God's word being finished and thus perfect.
I don't believe so.
This commentary excerpt on 1 Corinthians 13, and for purposes of express reference, the matter of the, made perfect, text of verse 10.(I have made bold the text in blue that pertains to my rebuttal. )
Source: Mounce scripture in full 1 Corinthians 13 w/ full commentary only partially excerpted below.
"Why will the gifts cease? It is because they are imperfect provisions for an imperfect world, rendered unnecessary when perfection comes (vv. 9–10). But to what does “perfection” refer? The other main biblical meaning of the word (Gk. teleios) is “maturity” (cf. the metaphor in v. 11), but neither perfection nor consistent maturity has yet come to the church of Jesus Christ. Although later interpreters have at times felt otherwise, nothing in Paul supports any consciousness of his writing near the end of an apostolic age or the close of a biblical canon. And the metaphors in verse 12 fit poorly with such interpretations. After the Bible was completed, Christians did not see God “face to face” (only “face to book”!) or know him to the degree that he knew them. When we recall that 1:7 pointed out the ongoing role of the gifts until the return of Christ, there can be only one possible interpretation of “perfection”—it is the life in the world to come after Jesus reappears on earth."
Please be more specific.
But Paul would in reference to his coming.
Gender is only for translation. After translation comes understanding. You are isolating the word 'perfect' making the gender of a single word in the sentence determine Paul was not referring to the coming of the Lord.
What if Paul wanted to say perfect, knowing the perfect will come when the Lord returns. What word would satisfy you?
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