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Justicewolf
Guest
You are posting in the thread, "the lake of fire punishment, ie. torture or destruction. " That's what the scripture pertains to.
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The lake of fire - Punishment ie torture or destruction
- Thread starter PeterJens
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- hell judgement lake of fire sin
I have no idea what you're trying to say with that post. Quoting a bunch stuff is, as I already said, often pointless, as in this case.
billybalke
Member
Out of the mouths of (1) the dragon. (2) the mouth of the beast. (3) the mouth of the false prophet. The 1st two are not human but absolutely no indication that the false prophet was not human.
And what about the "whosoever" in Rev.20:15. Seems plain to me the "whosoever" are humans.
J
Justicewolf
Guest
I don't believe you are reading this thread. I'm not quoting a bunch of stuff as people can see. I'm referring to the Bible, 2nd Thessalonians verse posted above. From the Mounce version with the corresponding Greek, which the new testament was primarily written in in the beginning, so as to see the full meaning of the English translation.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 is absolutely without question relevant to the OP.
billybalke
Member
Correct. One passage reads "able" the other writer reads "power" to.
I'm reading the thread just fine.
J
Justicewolf
Guest
I would agree.
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. II Timothy 1:9 and Revelation 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the inhabitants of the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will be amazed when they see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.
chessman
Member
Yes there is.
I never said Matt 10:28 says God will destroy both body and soul in Hell.
I never said Matt 10:28 did.
Are you aware of any translation that actually translated this verse as you quoted it above?
Actually the story continues on to Luke’s account of this discussion where he phrases the fear of Jesus is because He has the authority to cast people into Hell as compared to Matthew’s account where he phrases the authority as destruction of both body and soul in Hell.
Clear evidence they understood casting into Hell as destruction of both body and soul.
chessman
Member
And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false-prophet.
Revelation 16:13 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 16:13&version=DLNTHow many unclean spirits did John see,
2 or 3?
Negatory.
You have appealed to it as evidence that God will destroy both body and soul in Hell:
Will the excercise of His authority being kept for the day of judgment result in the destruction of ungodly men and thus destroy both their body and soul in Hell at their second death? I say yes because of the following evidence:
28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:28&version=NASB
Found here: http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...ture-or-destruction.71606/page-7#post-1389995
I have just shown otherwise.
No, but that is just how the English language works, how it reads. I already gave the ESV but I'll give it again:
Luk 12:5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him! (ESV)
"Show," "warn," "tell"--in this context they all mean the same thing. A plain reading and knowledge of the English language tells us this.
Evidence of nothing of the sort. The whole point of what Jesus is saying is that God is much more powerful and to be feared than men. There is nothing in either of those verses, used singularly or together, that proves or is evidence for destruction of the soul or body in hell.
chessman
Member
Positively.
Which is NOT the same thing as saying that Matt 10:28 says it.
No you didn’t.
I said, that was my answer to the question I asked, not that that was what Matt 10:28 said.
In proper English grammar, when you use quotation marks, you are supposed to be quoting a source.
It’s not the whole point. There are other points being made. To include the point that this authority is a warning about the lost being cast into Hell.
I said:
"Your view fails to acknowledge that the torment lasts for ever and ever."
Is a totally destroyed soul in torment? Of course not. There's nothing left to torment what no longer exists.
"Your view fails to acknowledge that the torment lasts for ever and ever."
My view was informed by Rev 20:10-15. If the beast and false prophet (humans) will be tormented forever and ever, why wouldn't all the other humans (v.15) also be tormented the same time? You've not explained that.
Of course the beast, false prophet and all who are cast into the lake of fire are lost.
Who are the "'they" in "they will be tormented forever and ever"? 2 humans and the devil. We also know that all fallen angels will end up in the lake of fire as well, from Matt 25:46.
They'll spend eternity (forever and ever) in the same place as all lost humans (Rev 20:15).
Are you suggesting that the beast and false prophet aren't humans??
Sure. What else can it be referring to?
A totally destroyed soul isn't doing anything. It no longer exists, remember?
Is a totally destroyed soul in torment? Of course not. There's nothing left to torment what no longer exists.
Please re-read the verses. The 3 unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouths of the devil (dragon), and out of the mouths of the beast and false prophet.
What the verse doesn't say is that the 3 unclean spirits ARE the dragon, beast and false prophet. You've mis-read the verse.
chessman
Member
You are assuming that The Beast and The False Prophet are humans when the Evidence I provided says they are demons. I ultimately yield to the Scriptures, not church traditions. Other than your assumption, what evidence have you presented at all that remotely indicates that either The Dragon, The Beast or The False Prophet from John’s vision are meant to be understood as humans?
I’m not suggesting it, I’m showing you the evidence. Of course they aren’t humans, They are demons, as the Text I provided says.
And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false-prophet. For they are spirits of demons doing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world to gather them together for the battle of the great day of God Almighty.
Revelation 16:13-14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 16:13-14&version=DLNTThese demons do signs!
Nothing, other than demons.
I know, including not resting. That’s my point.
they are spirits of demons
“they” referes to The Dragon, The Beast and The False Prophet. These three.
There’s no way one or two are meant to be understood as humans. All three are unclean spirits.
J
Justicewolf
Guest
Correct. And those passages, as well as that which says, can destroy the body and soul in Hell, pertain to foretelling. That which will occur should those hearing the word not receive the word and be saved from that eternal destruction.
Understand that for the scripture in Matthew 10:28 not to be true, as some argue it isn't saying what is written, all those other scriptures that pertain to destruction in Hell, eternal suffering, would have to also be untrue. Hell is the opposite of Heaven.
Hell was created for Satan and his angels at the end of days. That they be cast there for eternity. Then it was opened to receive unrepentant souls.
Matthew 10 tells us not to fear those that can kill our body and not our soul. Fellow humans. Think of those martyred for their Christian faith. Their flesh was destroyed but their eternally saved soul lives eternally. Matthew says instead to fear that which can destroy both the body and soul in Hell.
Jesus was giving instruction to his Disciples when they were to go forward and deliver his great commission and spread the good news of salvation. How can a people come to be saved if they do not know the eternal penalty should they die in their sins?
"Can" destroy the body and soul in Hell. God has the ability to do that. He's God. "Can", in that passage is expressing what is possible should the flesh be killed and the soul damned because the person was not saved.
Negatory. When you condemned the Mounce version of the scripture that clarified what you do not understand in Matthew 10:28.
I believe you've mis-read the verse. There are 3 spirits that come out of the mouth of the beast and FP.
That's my position. Where have I ever quoted "church traditions" or any of the so-called "divines"?
First, I properly read the verse about where the 3 spirits come out from. Plus, we know that the beast will be the one world ruler. This will be a human being.
Humans also do signs.
The spirits of demons come out of the mouth of the 3.
What comes out of the mouths of the 3 sure are demons.
chessman
Member
It is you that has misread the verses:
And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false-prophet.
Revelation 16:13 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 16:13&version=DLNTThree mouths, each with an unclean spirit coming out. Why??? Because they are three demons:
For they are spirits of demons [plural] doing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world to gather them together for the battle of the great day of God Almighty.
Revelation 16:14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 16:14&version=DLNTBased on what teaching then do you claim The Beast and The False Prophet in John’s vision are humans? You just can’t reason to one spirit being (The Dragon) and two humans from these verses or any other. No way.
For they are spirits of demons doing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world to gather them together for the battle of the great day of God Almighty.
Revelation 16:14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 16:14&version=DLNTWe know that The Beast will do signs to become the one world leader because he’s a demon (angel of the Devil).
Please show were the frogs do signs in John’s visions.
It is The Beast and The False Prophet that do signs in John’s vision and gather the kings for battle. And the Text says it is “demons doing signs” and deceiving humans dwelling on the Earth and speaking like a dragon.
And I saw another beast coming-up out of the land. And he had two horns like a lamb. And he was speaking like a dragon. And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and the ones dwelling in it so that they will worship the first beast whose wound of death was cured. And he does great signs, so that he even makes fire to come-down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of the people. And he deceives the ones dwelling upon the earth because-of the signs which it was given him to do in the presence of the beast— telling the ones dwelling upon the earth to make an image to the beast who has the wound of the sword and lived.
Revelation 13:11-14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 13:11-14&version=DLNTFurthermore, it is The Devil, The Beast and The False Prophet that are cast into the Lake of Fire (to remain forever) PRIOR to the Judgment. If they were meant to be understood as humans, they miss out on the Judgment of ALL humans.
There are many, many Biblical reasons to understand these as demons not humans.
You’ve presented nothing to support them being humans.
What comes out of the THREE mouths are three unclean spirts OF DEMONS.
Please show from the Scripture where it depicts something like frogs doing any signs. It is The Beasts and False Prophet that do signs. I’ve shown (with Scripture) that theses three (The Dragon, The Beast and The False Prophet) are the Devil and his angels doing signs, deceptions and eventually get thrown into the Lake of Fire (prior to the Judgment).
You’ve shown previously to be perfectly capable of supporting your views via Scripture. On this point, however, you’ve presented zilch to support your view that The Beast or The False Prophet in John’s vision are humans.
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The world ruler commonly called the "anti-christ" is the beast. What serious Bible scholar has claimed that this world ruler during the Tribulation is a demon, and not a human being?
There you go. It's not I who is not reading the thread. Nowhere did I condemn Mounce.
chessman
Member
John the Apostle.
For they are the spirits of demons performing signs that go out to the kings of the whole inhabited world, to gather them for the battle of the great day of God the All-Powerful.
Revelation 16:14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 16:14&version=LEBThe demons perform signs and gather the tribes of people in John’s vision:
In John’s Vision, a Beast rises up out of the Sea, performs signs and rules over all humans.
And I saw coming up out of the sea a beast that had ten horns and seven heads, and on its horns ten royal headbands, and on its heads a blasphemous name. And a mouth was given to him speaking great things and blasphemies, and authority to act was given to him for forty-two months. And he opened his mouth for blasphemies toward God, to blaspheme his name and his dwelling, those who live in heaven. And it was given to him to make war with the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given to him over every tribe and people and language and nation.
Revelation 13:1,5-7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 13:1,5-7&version=LEBand every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God, and this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
1 John 4:3 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 John 4:3&version=LEB
1 John 4:3 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 John 4:3&version=LEB
The Beast that rises from the Sea is the ‘one world ruler’ within John’s vision. And again is one of the three demons performing signs throughout. It is John (not me) who says they are demons (not humans) performing signs in Rev 16:14 and the spirts of antichrist (anti-Messiah) in 1 John 4:3.
Which is why they get banished to Hell by Christ forever PRIOR to the Judgment of all humans.
I yield to the Scriptures, not tradition or traditional Bible scholars.