The lake of fire - Punishment ie torture or destruction

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Scripture disagrees. Rev 21:8 - But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

The second death is clearly a place; also called the lake of fire."

I separated this out because it deserves it’s own discussion.
Scripture doesn’t say that the 2nd death is a “place”. You have, without any evidence or reasoning for this view.

The phrase "they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur" is clearly a PLACE. No argument about that.

Then John says "this is the second death". What does "this" refer to? What he had just said: the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Maybe you're suggesting that the "fiery lake of burning sulphur" is a different place or thing than the "lake of fire". Is that so?

Is the first “death” a “place” on your view? Or is Hades/Sheol the place where the dead go into?

The first death is physical separation of soul from body. The second death is permanent (eternal) separation of soul from God. Which occurs IN the lake of fire, which is a PLACE.

Here’s my reasons for why “the second death” is not a place but rather a thing (a noun describing the result of an action) and I’ll await any contrary evidence you present. Who knows, you could be right and I could be wrong. Or vice-versa.:

1. They are consigned “in” to the place called here The Lake of Fire and brimstone (which seems obvious enough a vision of Hell/Gehenna not to mention S&G) with the result or the interpretation of that consignment being their death, the 2nd (body and soul this time). Their second death IS the consequence of their consignment there, “in” the place visioned by John as The Lake of Fire. As the 1st death consigns the lost to Hades, the 2nd death consigns the lost to the Lake of Fire. (Which is more fearful, less bearable

(I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh.) For just as you presented your members as slaves to immorality and lawlessness, leading to lawlessness, ... For the end of those things is death. For the compensation due sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

Romans 6:19,21,23 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 6:19,21,23&version=LEB

Death is a compensation (a thing) not a place. All throughout the Bible. Nowhere is “death” a place.

Maybe we're just arguing semantics. Eternal separation from God occurs in the lake of fire. I see that as synonymous.

“Which is” in Rev 21:8 relates “death” to burning fire and sulfur, not the lake (the place) via matching genders/grammar.

Except it's a FIERY LAKE. How is that different from the lake of fire?

 

[chessman]

If the soul of an unbeliever is destroyed (ceases to exist), then how are the statements "smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever" and "there will be no rest day or night" relevant?

I don't believe chessman will have any answers for these questions.

Sure, I do. I’ve read this, studiously, for years. Learning, all along the way. With every expectation to learn even more.

They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

An obvious and plain teaching of torment, right?
An obvious and plain teaching of torment with burning sulfur, right? (This is why I object to the description of annihilation as just simply ceasing to exist. It leaves out Biblical teaching to the contrary)
An obvious and plain teaching of torment with burning sulfur IN THE PRESENCE OF the Holy angels and The Lamb, right?

Does your answer to the lost’s consignment in The Lake of Fire include the Holy angels and The Lamb of God present in the Lake of Fire? My answer is this passage speaks of their torment with burning brimstone PRIOR to their consignment to the Lake of Fire. As those in S&G experienced.

And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever.

Okay??? If my view was the lost ‘simply cease to exist’ without first experiencing torment with burning brimstone , then I’d have a bad view. Do you think this verse teaches the lost are tormented forever in Hell or is it teaching the lost are tormented with burning sulfur IN THE PRESENCE of the Holy angels the Lamb (returned to reap the Earth)?

There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

Proof positive that there will be no rest for the lost. It’s not my view that the totally destroyed lost “rest”. How can a destroyed soul “rest”?

 

[Free]

How can a destroyed soul “rest”?

Any proof that souls will be destroyed?

 

[chessman]

The phrase "they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur" is clearly a PLACE. No argument about that.

Correct. The fiery lake of burning sulfur is a PLACE. Consignment their IS their punishment. The punishment is Death! The Death, the second. The one only God has authority to administer, but men do not.

Then John says "this is the second death". What does "this" refer to? What he had just said: the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

You left out the consignment part of what he just said.

Maybe you're suggesting that the "fiery lake of burning sulphur" is a different place or thing than the "lake of fire". Is that so?

No. Same place, IMO.

The first death is physical separation of soul from body. The second death is permanent (eternal) separation of soul from God. Which occurs IN the lake of fire, which is a PLACE.

Is “separation from God” a place in your sentence. And what verse are you referring to anyway?

Maybe we're just arguing semantics.

Maybe. But it beats arguing politics

I respect your views on many subjects and Scriptures. And I held your view of the lost not actually/lierally being destroyed in Hell (body and soul) for decades. I’ve come to believe otherwise by studying more in-depth what these passages say (semantics). And I appreciate your counterpoints when you make them via Scripture. But with all due respect you haven’t provided any ‘answer’ to the points I made in 1-4 of that post. And it’s okay if you never do. Happy Thanksgiving!

Death is a thing (not a place), via points 1-2.

The grammar points to “the second death” being the result of them burning with fire and brimestone, not the Lake itself (the place). Point 3.

Point 4 is a link to a mouthful, I know.

 

[Justicewolf]

Any proof that souls will be destroyed?

Just the Bible.
Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Matthew 10:28).

 

[Free]

Just the Bible.
Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Matthew 10:28).

Being able to do something is not the same as doing it.

 

[Justicewolf]

Being able to do something is not the same as doing it.

That observation concerns the human dimension. The Bible speaks all truth and says exactly what it means to communicate from God in Matthew 10:28. This then answers your prior question in post #123, "Any proof that souls will be destroyed?"
The proof is in Matthew 10:28.
Do you not believe God when he says this? Is your observation here , being able to do something is not the same as doing it, hoping to communicate that God's observations in Matthew 10:28 are of no import?

 

[Free]

That observation concerns the human dimension. The Bible speaks all truth and says exactly what it means to communicate from God in Matthew 10:28. This then answers your prior question in post #123, "Any proof that souls will be destroyed?"
The proof is in Matthew 10:28.
Do you not believe God when he says this? Is your observation here , being able to do something is not the same as doing it, hoping to communicate that God's observations in Matthew 10:28 are of no import?

Of course I believe God, that is rather the point.

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (ESV)

When I read that God "can destroy both soul and body in hell," I correctly understand that it does not say God "will destroy both soul and body in hell." Be careful in making Scripture say something it does not.

 

[Justicewolf]

Of course I believe God, that is rather the point.

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (ESV)

When I read that God "can destroy both soul and body in hell," I correctly understand that it does not say God "will destroy both soul and body in hell." Be careful in making Scripture say something it does not.

No need to admonish me. It is not correct to think Hell is not a place of destruction. Because the Bible does not say that.
I'll cease this effort now.
Have a blessed and peace filled Thanksgiving.

 

[Free]

No need to admonish me. It is not to correct to think Hell is not a place of destruction. Because the Bible does not say that.

I haven't said otherwise. The point is just what it is that does actually get destroyed (in addition to what is meant by "destroyed").

Have a blessed and peace filled Thanksgiving.

That is so last month....But I hope you have a wonderful Thanksgiving.

 

[Justicewolf]

I haven't said otherwise. The point is just what it is that does actually get destroyed (in addition to what is meant by "destroyed").

The Bible is clear on that too.

That is so last month....But I hope you have a wonderful Thanksgiving.

No, Thanksgiving is this month. Halloween was last month.

And thanks.

 

[billybalke]

The Bible is clear on that too.


No, Thanksgiving is this month. Halloween was last month.

And thanks.

Hell is as long lasting as heaven and whatever hell is its worse than a lake of fire or furnace, etc.

 

[Free]

No, Thanksgiving is this month.

Not everywhere.

 

[Justicewolf]

Not everywhere.

 

[chessman]

Any proof that souls will be destroyed?

Evidence, yes. Proof, however, is subject to the eye of the beholder.

Being able to do something is not the same as doing it.

Is their any Biblical evidence that God has the authority and ability to cast the lost into Hell? I say yes because of the following evidence:

5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!​

Luke 12:5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 12:5&version=NASB

Proof enough for me.

Will he exercise this authority upon the lost after their judgment? I say yes, because of the following evidence:

But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.​

2 Peter 3:7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Peter 3:7&version=NASB

Proof enough for me.

Will the excercise of His authority being kept for the day of judgment result in the destruction of ungodly men and thus destroy both their body and soul in Hell at their second death? I say yes because of the following evidence:

28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

Matthew 10:28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:28&version=NASB

But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”​

Revelation 21:8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 21:8&version=NASB

Proof enough for me.

 

[Justicewolf]

Evidence, yes. Proof, however, is subject to the eye of the beholder.



Is their any Biblical evidence that God has the authority and ability to cast the lost into Hell? I say yes because of the following evidence:

5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!​

Luke 12:5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 12:5&version=NASB

Proof enough for me.

Will he exercise this authority upon the lost after their judgment? I say yes, because of the following evidence:

But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.​

2 Peter 3:7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Peter 3:7&version=NASB

Proof enough for me.

Will the excercise of His authority being kept for the day of judgment result in the destruction of ungodly men and thus destroy both their body and soul in Hell at their second death? I say yes because of the following evidence:

28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

Matthew 10:28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:28&version=NASB

But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”​

Revelation 21:8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 21:8&version=NASB

Proof enough for me.

Me too.
Have a blessed and peaceful Thanksgiving brother.

 

[Free]

Evidence, yes. Proof, however, is subject to the eye of the beholder.

You know what I am asking. Let's not play semantic games.

Is their any Biblical evidence that God has the authority and ability to cast the lost into Hell?

This is not at all what I asked.

I say yes because of the following evidence:

5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!​

Luke 12:5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 12:5&version=NASB

Proof enough for me.

Will he exercise this authority upon the lost after their judgment? I say yes, because of the following evidence:

But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.​

2 Peter 3:7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Peter 3:7&version=NASB

Proof enough for me.

Will the excercise of His authority being kept for the day of judgment result in the destruction of ungodly men and thus destroy both their body and soul in Hell at their second death? I say yes because of the following evidence:

28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

Matthew 10:28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:28&version=NASB

But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”​

Revelation 21:8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 21:8&version=NASB

Proof enough for me.

Nothing you have given provides evidence of what I have asked.

 

[Justicewolf]

Hell is as long lasting as heaven and whatever hell is its worse than a lake of fire or furnace, etc.

Hell is the lake of fire.

 

[billybalke]

Hell is the lake of fire.

Hell is described as a garbage dump, a lake of fire, a furnace, a bottomless pit and a place of outer darkness. Which is it? Or are these just some of the worse things the mind of man can imagine. Whatever it is, hell is everlasting and worse than these descriptions.

 

[Justicewolf]

Hell is described as a garbage dump, a lake of fire, a furnace, a bottomless pit and a place of outer darkness. Which is it? Or are these just some of the worse things the mind of man can imagine. Whatever it is, hell is everlasting and worse than these descriptions.

Does it destroy the body and the soul ? Please post those scriptures that say that. Please. Seriously.