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Completely false.

Adam was not created in sin.

That is Gnostic teaching and is heresy.

Paul very specifically shows us the conditions of the first man, Adam, in 1 Cor. 15:42-46.

Whether anyone believes it or not and prefers the christian freewill fairy tale won't change what Paul wrote about these facts, here:

1 Corinthians 15:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

The above is quite clear about how both Adam and all subsequent natural mankind are MADE.
 
Do you believe Adam was driven out while Eve remained in the garden?
JLB

No. They were both clearly driven out.

Genesis 5:2
Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam
, in the day when they were created.

All natural men and women, subsequently, can be seen with the same Eyes of God, as Adam, a natural man, subject to the conditions of their "first natural MAKING" by God as Paul directs to see in 1 Cor. 15:42-46.

And if this IS the case, the cases of 1 Cor. 15:42-46, it is quite pointless to term a planting in weakness (2 Cor. 12:7-9), a planting in/with dishonor (Romans 9:18-24, 2 Tim. 2:20-21) and a planting in corruption, Romans 8:10, Romans 8:21, Gal. 5:17, Phil. 3:21 as anything even remotely close to "sinless Adam with a freewill" in the Garden of Eden because none of this is true, nor can it be true.

Dishonor, corruption, weakness and a body that is DOOMED to death resembles nothing of freewill sinlessness whatsoever. How anyone can even come up with that would be only an imagination of the evil mind, thinking they can be PERFECT like GOD.

The Perfection of God can ONLY come from ONE DIRECTION, and this from God Alone. It is not a making that was ever in man's hands to begin with. But the world is full of such imaginations, even among the unbelievers.
 
what does this line of yours have to do with who God told not to eat the 'apple'? a direct answer to your, from out of the blue, question is no...
Adam was the head of the house he failed Eve... He should have been her covering . Adam was a human Jesus is our head our covering..and Praise the Lord He is not just human...

hello reba, dirtfarmer here

I would like to ask a question for pondering.

When did Adam become "head of the house"? When God created him or after the fall? We find that when Adam did the naming there was nothing found that could be a companion to Adam. In Genesis 2:18 " And the LORD God said, it is not good that man should be alone, I will make him an help meet for him." In order to understand the words "help meet" need to be understood.

Eve was not created to be like Adam. She was designed to be completely opposite from him or possessing the other half the qualities, responsibilities, and attributes that Adam was in want of.
Adam was male and his sexual organs were external, although he had an X and Y chromosome.
Eve was female and her sexual organs were internal. She had 2 X chromosomes
But, they fit together perfectly to "be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." Genesis 1:29

In Genesis 3:16 we find the sentence that God pronounced on the woman for eating of the forbidden fruit: " unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." The child bearing was nothing new, but child birth was made more painful and the threat of death to her and her child during birth was added.

The part that was changed was, " he shall rule over thee". I see this as being the change from, "help meet" and the husband becoming the head of the household.

Even with the man being head of the house hold, it doesn't mean that the wife is a servant to he husband, but in matters of the family, he has the ultimate decision. God has a role for man as husband and a role for woman as wife. When we abide by God's plan there will be harmony within the family.

Men as husbands need to remember that Eve was not taken from the sole of Adams foot, but from his side. So the wife is not a servant but a companion.
Women as wives need to remember that Eve was not taken from the crown of the head of man to be a ruler over him, but from his side to help.
 
hello reba, dirtfarmer here
OK, but would you mind posting your views?
I forget that not everyone has read every post :)
Adam was created as head of his house. Eve was his help meet .... Husbands are to love thier wife as Christ loves His church.

Reba. This man is claiming Adam was created with sin in his flesh.
I was only speaking of the headship of adam... JLB if farmer and i have different views where do you see where i agree with him?
 
JLB if farmer and i have different views where do you see where i agree with him?


I was referring to smaller, and the content and meaning of his post.

Do you believe God created Adam with sinful flesh, like we have?



JLB
 
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.


Adam was made a living soul. This certainly doesn't mean he was made with sin in his natural body.

Adam was not "sown" as the rest of mankind, but was made from the dust of the ground, which at that time there was no sin introduced into mankind.

The seed that Adam "sowed" to reproduce Cain was corrupt, as all mankind was now corrupt.


JLB
 
Adam was made a living soul. This certainly doesn't mean he was made with sin in his natural body.

Adam was not "sown" as the rest of mankind, but was made from the dust of the ground, which at that time there was no sin introduced into mankind.

The seed that Adam "sowed" to reproduce Cain was corrupt, as all mankind was now corrupt.


JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

If Adam was created with a sinful nature, would that not mean that God created sin. We both know that God didn't do that and I don't find where "the dust of the ground" had sin dwelling in it. We both agree on this.

As to Adam's offspring in Genesis 5, it is stated that they were in the image and likeness of Adam. If scripture is true and it is, then Adam's children were born with a nature to sin.
 
If Adam was created with a sinful nature, would that not mean that God created sin. We both know that God didn't do that and I don't find where "the dust of the ground" had sin dwelling in it. We both agree on this.

:agreed

s to Adam's offspring in Genesis 5, it is stated that they were in the image and likeness of Adam. If scripture is true and it is, then Adam's children were born with a nature to sin.

Yes, Adam's offspring were "sown" with a corrupt sin nature.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:42-45


The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.

This "sown" is a reference to the "seed" [sperma] of man.

The bloodline of mankind was corrupt from Adam on down, as each person was now conceived with a sin nature.


Adam of course was not "sown" or begotten, but was created from the dust of the ground, as we agree.



JLB
 
That transpired already. The devil and his messengers are and have been for quite some time, on earth, IN people's minds, blinding. Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2, scores of N.T. scriptures showing their "occupation" in the flesh of man, 1 Peter 5:8, etc etc ALL show that what is referred to above in bold is not some "future" event.


Satan has had that seat in the flesh temple of man from Day 1 of Adam, the natural man, and every person since.

Look where Satan sits, right now:

2 Corinthians 4:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Look where Satan sat prior to our salvation:

Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Here is what happened, past tense, the instant we believed, called upon Jesus to save us:


Colossians 1:13
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:


What darkness is this referring to?

Acts 26:
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

The prince of the power of the air is Satan. Where is that air? It is "internal." Not external atmosphere. The notion that it is "external atmosphere" is how some (unseeing) believers think we're going to drift off into the external atmosphere in some kind of a rapture event. This is NOT the case.

The air that we are caught up in is this:

Colossians 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

1 Peter 1:5
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

The Spirit of Christ is already SEATED in the hearts of believers. We just don't "see it." We "perceive" by faith, His occupancy.

What happens at thee end? This, Paul addresses to the Thessalonians:

2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Who is this capital W Wicked?

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,





If it happened already, then in Rev.12:14 states for a time, and times and half a time, which is three and a half years...
Could you explain this?
 
1 Corinthians 15:24
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall haveput down all rule and all authority and power.

Matthew 24:13King James Version (KJV)
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

How do you all hope to escape(raptured)before the end?
Good question :wink
 
If it happened already, then in Rev.12:14 states for a time, and times and half a time, which is three and a half years...
Could you explain this?
To understand Rev. it's important to understand that it is not all "future" events. It includes matters that have already transpired, as noted with Satan being on/in earth, being in people, blinding people's minds to the Gospel, etc etc.

There are many other examples of matters that have already transpired or are and have been in effect for quite some time or are references to past events.

So, no, not all and only future whatsoever.

Here is a piece of understanding 'time."

The devils also have "time."

Matthew 8:29
And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

We also know that the devil has what? Yes, a short TIME. Rev. 12:12

Their, the devil and his messengers "time" on/in the earth has been from day 1 of Adam. That "time" continues on to this day. The wicked/evil generation (singular tense application) we can read of in many places of scripture. It refers to "them" and "their time."

Does scripture speak of and to these entities? Of course. Scripture is not only about 'man.'

So, they have their TIME. This is the first understanding of TIME, singular. It is STILL to this day, the devils "TIME."

Now let's look at man. Man has many generations, plural. These are the "times" of man. Second fill in. "TIMES."

Now, if we are paying attentions, we might note that that these parties occupy the same space, that is in the flesh. It is the "spirit of disobedience, the god of this world, the prince of the power of the air" that is in the flesh, stealing Gods Words, blinding minds to the Gospel, Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, Romans 11:32, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2 etc.

We can read in Matthew 25's account of sheep and goats that sheep and goats will be what? Yes, separated. People read that account and they only see MANKIND. But the devil and his messengers are CLEARLY also referenced in that account and are IN mankind. There, in Matt. 25, is the DIVIDING of these parties. OR the what?

Yes, the DIVIDING or the HALVING of TIME or the half of "time." The separating of "TIME/TIMES."

Time, times, half of time. Quite simple if we get all the parties on the table for view.

What happens when the "angel of Revelation puts one foot in the sea and other other on earth and makes his declaration?

Rev. 10:
5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

Where does 'the great dragon' abide in scriptural terms? Why, in the "sea."

Isaiah 27:1
In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

Where does the Whore of Babylon sit? IN PEOPLE, which are referred to as "waters."

Revelation 17:1

And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

Revelation 17:15
And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

What is Babel/Babylon? "Confusion by MIXING."

Where else is the great dragon shown to be "in?"

Ezekiel 29:3
Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.

This great dragon has been for quite some time, deceiving the "whole" world. (another side study in itself, the whole world term)

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

The above happened in the Garden of Eden. The devil, the tempter, the serpent was IN Garden, doing his things.

What is Mystery Babylon?

Rev. 18:
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. See Mark 4:4 for "birds of the air" who PREY on seed. See Mark 4:15 to see WHO this "hateful bird" is. Who is the PRINCE of the power of the air?

All of these things are actually QUITE easy to see.

But you see, God Himself has put the "spirit of slumber" upon people, so they CAN'T see. It's done on purpose, to MAKE believers HONEST. If they are not "honest" they will not and can not see any of it. They will simply read the scripures through BLINDED eyes that only see MAN. They get only HALF the accounts and disregard the rest because they can't understand.

So, here is a path of "honesty" for anyone GOD CALLS to see:

Such have to see that their own sin, the sin dwelling in their own flesh, is of the DEVIL. If they can't admit this, they remain UNDER the power of the BLINDER.

When they are honest, which only God in Christ can provide in any case, on this matter, only THEN will they see as they should see, and the scriptures will OPEN to them.

But, not my call. It's quite a firm blockade that's run by the adversary and his minions, but it DOES serve for the purposes of imposing HONESTY (or not, in most cases.)

I'm not saying anyone who doesn't see ISN'T saved. They just won't see very well. And this is actually done by God, when He Sows His Perfect Word, the RESISTORS come to steal it. They will pay the price of eternal damnation for it.

Half the reason I post here and at other christian boards it to REMIND them of these things, that SOME believers DO see, and THEIR TIME is in fact short and getting shorter by the DAY.

AND, this is done precisely to PROVOKE and EMPOWER them for the "end of TIME."

Romans 7:13, 1 Cor. 15:56.
 
To understand Rev. it's important to understand that it is not all "future" events. It includes matters that have already transpired, as noted with Satan being on/in earth, being in people, blinding people's minds to the Gospel, etc etc.

There are many other examples of matters that have already transpired or are and have been in effect for quite some time or are references to past events.

So, no, not all and only future whatsoever.

Here is a piece of understanding 'time."

The devils also have "time."

Matthew 8:29
And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

We also know that the devil has what? Yes, a short TIME. Rev. 12:12

Their, the devil and his messengers "time" on/in the earth has been from day 1 of Adam. That "time" continues on to this day. The wicked/evil generation (singular tense application) we can read of in many places of scripture. It refers to "them" and "their time."

Does scripture speak of and to these entities? Of course. Scripture is not only about 'man.'

So, they have their TIME. This is the first understanding of TIME, singular. It is STILL to this day, the devils "TIME."

Now let's look at man. Man has many generations, plural. These are the "times" of man. Second fill in. "TIMES."

Now, if we are paying attentions, we might note that that these parties occupy the same space, that is in the flesh. It is the "spirit of disobedience, the god of this world, the prince of the power of the air" that is in the flesh, stealing Gods Words, blinding minds to the Gospel, Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, Romans 11:32, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2 etc.

We can read in Matthew 25's account of sheep and goats that sheep and goats will be what? Yes, separated. People read that account and they only see MANKIND. But the devil and his messengers are CLEARLY also referenced in that account and are IN mankind. There, in Matt. 25, is the DIVIDING of these parties. OR the what?

Yes, the DIVIDING or the HALVING of TIME or the half of "time." The separating of "TIME/TIMES."

Time, times, half of time. Quite simple if we get all the parties on the table for view.

What happens when the "angel of Revelation puts one foot in the sea and other other on earth and makes his declaration?

Rev. 10:
5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

Where does 'the great dragon' abide in scriptural terms? Why, in the "sea."

Isaiah 27:1
In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

Where does the Whore of Babylon sit? IN PEOPLE, which are referred to as "waters."

Revelation 17:1

And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

Revelation 17:15
And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

What is Babel/Babylon? "Confusion by MIXING."

Where else is the great dragon shown to be "in?"

Ezekiel 29:3
Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.

This great dragon has been for quite some time, deceiving the "whole" world. (another side study in itself, the whole world term)

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

The above happened in the Garden of Eden. The devil, the tempter, the serpent was IN Garden, doing his things.

What is Mystery Babylon?

Rev. 18:
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. See Mark 4:4 for "birds of the air" who PREY on seed. See Mark 4:15 to see WHO this "hateful bird" is. Who is the PRINCE of the power of the air?

All of these things are actually QUITE easy to see.

But you see, God Himself has put the "spirit of slumber" upon people, so they CAN'T see. It's done on purpose, to MAKE believers HONEST. If they are not "honest" they will not and can not see any of it. They will simply read the scripures through BLINDED eyes that only see MAN. They get only HALF the accounts and disregard the rest because they can't understand.

So, here is a path of "honesty" for anyone GOD CALLS to see:

Such have to see that their own sin, the sin dwelling in their own flesh, is of the DEVIL. If they can't admit this, they remain UNDER the power of the BLINDER.

When they are honest, which only God in Christ can provide in any case, on this matter, only THEN will they see as they should see, and the scriptures will OPEN to them.

But, not my call. It's quite a firm blockade that's run by the adversary and his minions, but it DOES serve for the purposes of imposing HONESTY (or not, in most cases.)

I'm not saying anyone who doesn't see ISN'T saved. They just won't see very well. And this is actually done by God, when He Sows His Perfect Word, the RESISTORS come to steal it. They will pay the price of eternal damnation for it.

Half the reason I post here and at other christian boards it to REMIND them of these things, that SOME believers DO see, and THEIR TIME is in fact short and getting shorter by the DAY.

AND, this is done precisely to PROVOKE and EMPOWER them for the "end of TIME."

Romans 7:13, 1 Cor. 15:56.
Of course Satan's spirit is here as also the Holy Spirit.
But here he is kicked out, defacto, himself.
For the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before God day and night.
As in Matt.24:22, Mark 13:20, Luke 21:26
As you read Rev.12: it does have some past, because it covers eons of time.
Rev.12:1
Head of 12 stars is Mother Israel
Rev.12:2
And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered..
The birth of the flesh age..Isa.66:7
Rev12:3,4
In heaven, Satan drew the third part of the stars of heaven, (angels)
Satan's rebellion.
Wanted to devour the Christ seed, from Mother Israel
Rev12:5
She brought forth a man child, from Eve to all the way up to virgin Mary.
He was to rule all nations with a rod of iron..
Rev.19:15
And out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nation's, and He shall rule them with a rod of iron..and He treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God...
Back to Rev.12:5
And the Child was caught up unto God, and to His throne..
Christ crucified, and sitting on the righthand of God..
Then you have an expansion of time...
Then Satan and his angels booted out of heaven. Rev.12:12

Daniel 7:21
Daniel 7:25
And he shall speak great words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and think to change times and laws, and they shall be given into his hand until time and times and the dividing of time. 3 1/2

Babylon, I agree, means confusion...
The Harlot is the deceived church, they worship the wrong one and receive his Mark.
No longer a virgin bride, spiritually.
Rev.18:7
Saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow....
Satan is her husband...
My thoughts...
Also Matt.8:29 is referring to the endtimes, they will be tormented...
 
Matthew 24:23 "Then if any man shall say unto you, 'Lo, here is Christ,' or 'there,' believe it not."

Matthew 24:26 "Wherefore if they shall say unto you, 'Behold, He is in the desert;' go not forth: 'Behold, He is in the secret chambers;' believe it not."

If someone has to tell you Christ has came,He has'nt.
 
I haven't read all of this thread, but wanted to reply on a point which interests me.

The "removal of that which restrains" includes, at least to my mind, the question "removed how?"

We have assumed it is by a hidden arrival of Jesus, but I think perhaps it will be the voice of Christianity which is removed/no longer allowed (tolerated). Especially as we see this tendency shaping up in the world for some time now.

I know many believe the elect the angels gather "immediately after the tribulation" is Israel, but Paul calls believers elect also.

And it's when He arrives that He divides the sheep and goats. "He comes in fire and with angels" - 2 Thess 1:7,8.

If it should happen we are not raptured out of that day of trouble, will some lose faith? Will some be snared in events of the day? Would we miss signs we should have been watching for? Or they, should it be in the days of our kids or grand kids..

God bless! :)
 
I haven't read all of this thread, but wanted to reply on a point which interests me.

The "removal of that which restrains" includes, at least to my mind, the question "removed how?"

We have assumed it is by a hidden arrival of Jesus, but I think perhaps it will be the voice of Christianity which is removed/no longer allowed (tolerated). Especially as we see this tendency shaping up in the world for some time now.

I know many believe the elect the angels gather "immediately after the tribulation" is Israel, but Paul calls believers elect also.

And it's when He arrives that He divides the sheep and goats. "He comes in fire and with angels" - 2 Thess 1:7,8.

If it should happen we are not raptured out of that day of trouble, will some lose faith? Will some be snared in events of the day? Would we miss signs we should have been watching for? Or they, should it be in the days of our kids or grand kids..

God bless! :)

The only restraint from stopping iniquity and the Son of perdition operating at full throttle is the restraint on earth now. The light of the World, the anointed, the body of Christ. Where iniquity abounds, Grace does abound more, until the body of the anointed is removed and the son of perdition revealed. We won't be here when those angels sound their sound, the vials released on earth. Not sure that it would be called mid tribulation, but most definitely before God trashes the earth. Some call that pre-wrath.

The whole thing in that chapter starts off.........

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
(2Th 2:1)
 
I haven't read all of this thread, but wanted to reply on a point which interests me.

The "removal of that which restrains" includes, at least to my mind, the question "removed how?"

We have assumed it is by a hidden arrival of Jesus, but I think perhaps it will be the voice of Christianity which is removed/no longer allowed (tolerated). Especially as we see this tendency shaping up in the world for some time now.

I know many believe the elect the angels gather "immediately after the tribulation" is Israel, but Paul calls believers elect also.

And it's when He arrives that He divides the sheep and goats. "He comes in fire and with angels" - 2 Thess 1:7,8.

If it should happen we are not raptured out of that day of trouble, will some lose faith? Will some be snared in events of the day? Would we miss signs we should have been watching for? Or they, should it be in the days of our kids or grand kids..

God bless! :)

"The "removal of that which restrains"

That would be the removal of the Caesars under the "then" Roman empire..
 
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