Are we born condemned with Adams sin...or innocent at birth?

[stovebolts]

King James Bible
Surely the churning of milk bringeth forth butter, and the wringing of the nose bringeth forth blood: so the forcing of wrath bringeth forth strife.

 

[dirtfarmer]

And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
Genesis 5:3 KJV

So where does it say Adam had a sin
nature and passed it on to Seth?

Did Adam really understand?

Of course he did, just as Eve understood it, but allowed the the thought of the serpent to be concieved in her.

Did god really say?

She looked at the evidence and the outward appearance of the fruit, that it was beautiful, and good for food.

hello John Christian, dirtfarmer here

So, are you saying that Adam was the same after his rebellion as he was before? If so, why the need for God to make covering of animal skins after "the fall"?

 

[MarkT]

And childeye Chopper Free chessman

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

If we look at the text in Genesis, it is very clear that Eve was decieved, but there isn't much on Adam.

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat

How does Paul come to the account that Adam was not deceived? It is through oral tradition and the Jews have much to say on this and Paul affirms through the Holy Spirit a correct view on the matter. In Short, Paul makes it clear that Adam was not deceived while Eve was decieved.

We can talk much about what it is to be deceived, and we can if we need to. But if Paul is correct, and I believe he is, then there is only one option left. Adam willfully ate at Eve' s prompting knowing God had commanded against it.

Wilfully would suggest Adam planned the whole thing. We know Adam did not plan it. Eve was beguiled. She ate, and she gave some to Adam, and he ate. Then their eyes were opened, and they saw they were naked, so they made aprons for themselves for a covering

They didn't know good and evil until after they ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. So at this point they became like God, knowing good and evil, and they became fearful and they covered themselves.

Elsewhere, Paul writes that Death came through Adam for his disobedience. It does not come through Eve who was received. This is why life comes through Jesus who was obedient even to the cross.

In Jewish thought, ones Jewishness or lack of comes through the mother. As an example, if a Jewish man marries a Gentile woman, the child is not considered Jewish and must convert.
If the woman is Jewish and the man is Gentile, the child is considered Jewish.

In short, they believe that the identity of a soul comes from the Father, but the essence comes from the mother.

Since Paul is Jewish, and scripture says that Eve is the mother of all, then all cary the essence of Eve. And what we know of Eve is that she was decieved.

Perhaps this is what Paul is referring to when he speaks of the sin nature. Perhaps this is what David is eluding to in his psalm.

Paul writes in one of his epistles about how he killed Christians, but now he was an advocate for Christ. What we know about Paul, was he was very zealous for God. He was deceived into thinking He was doing Gods will by killing Christians.
Shortly after Paul tells of his old self, he tells of those who willfully disobey God.

If any of you have spent time in Torah, you will find that it teaches discernment above absolutes and it starts with Adam and Eve.
Eve who was deceived and Adam who willfully disobeyed God by doing the will Eve.

So instead of parting with Jewish thought, you go to their traditions to find your answers.

 

[banded butterfly]

Yep, his spiritual mother, who turned to her own lovers and away from God.

His spiritual mother? Please post the scripture that refers to that.

 

[banded butterfly]

So instead of parting with Jewish thought, you go to their traditions to find your answers.

Forgive my interjecting here.
Parting with Jewish thought? What do you mean?

 

[MarkT]

Forgive my interjecting here.
Parting with Jewish thought? What do you mean?

I mean Christ is our light. Do we start with Christ and then fall away into darkness?

 

[stovebolts]

Wilfully would suggest Adam planned the whole thing. We know Adam did not plan it. Eve was beguiled. She ate, and she gave some to Adam, and he ate. Then their eyes were opened, and they saw they were naked, so they made aprons for themselves for a covering

They didn't know good and evil until after they ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. So at this point they became like God, knowing good and evil, and they became fearful and they covered themselves.



So instead of parting with Jewish thought, you go to their traditions to find your answers.

Hi mark,
That's the bad thing about jumping in on a conversation. We had talked about this very thing earlier, and it was decided that willfully probably wasn't my best choice of words. Instead, I landed on wilfull.

What is the difference you ask? I believe it reduces the ambiguity that your raising.

From the passages already posted, it's pretty clear Adam' sin was a willful disobedience. He was not deceived.

People justify their sin in many ways. We all have made excuses to do things we know we should not do. As discussed earlier, perhaps Adam sinned reluctantly. He still made a conscious choice, regardless how he reasoned it, and that's not to say that his reasoning didn't have merit.

As far as Jewish writing vs, they seem to have the wisdom and depth to satisfy me.

Now that you have read my take on the sinful nature, what are your thoughts?

 

[stovebolts]

I mean Christ is our light. Do we start with Christ and then fall away into darkness?

I understand your words were not directed at me, but I am stirred to reply.

Jesus was a Jew, the apostles were Jews and the church began with Jews. Don't discount what they have to say.... We were grafted into the faith...

 

[stovebolts]

These Jews?

Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
John 8:41‭-‬48 KJV

Wow, your old school aren't you? I'll bet you have a copy of SwordSearcher to help you find your topics don't you? Or do you have them all memorized?

But to my point earlier, your always looking for the fight aren't you.

 

[banded butterfly]

I don't really need to, were you "born" of God, begotten by him?

Front to back the scriptures all speak of an adulterous woman, mystery Babylon, the mother of harlots. Hosea 2, it's all over the Bible. The church would rather chase after her lovers than obey God. The church being the spiritual woman.

I don't believe in interpolation and then arguing that. Please address the case of King David and his physical birth to which he himself was referring in the Psalms pasage.

 

[banded butterfly]

I mean Christ is our light. Do we start with Christ and then fall away into darkness?

Emmanuel, Jesus Christ, was a Jew. Judaism was Christ's religious faith and upbringing and he was fulfilling the old testament prophecies concerning Messiah.
Christianity is not the religion of Jesus. Rather, it is the religion about Jesus.

 

[MarkT]

Hi mark,
That's the bad thing about jumping in on a conversation. We had talked about this very thing earlier, and it was decided that willfully probably wasn't my best choice of words. Instead, I landed on wilfull.

What is the difference you ask? I believe it reduces the ambiguity that your raising.

From the passages already posted, it's pretty clear Adam' sin was a willful disobedience. He was not deceived.

People justify their sin in many ways. We all have made excuses to do things we know we should not do. As discussed earlier, perhaps Adam sinned reluctantly. He still made a conscious choice, regardless how he reasoned it, and that's not to say that his reasoning didn't have merit.

As far as Jewish writing vs, they seem to have the wisdom and depth to satisfy me.

Now that you have read my take on the sinful nature, what are your thoughts?

I don't see any difference between wilful and wilfully. Wilful means deliberate or planned, and we know Adam didn't plan it. The Bible says he listened to her voice. So what's he supposed to do? He doesn't know good and evil, and God gave her to him.

When Paul says Adam was not deceived, he is referring to the facts. The Serpent deceived Eve, not Adam.

I don't know what you mean by sinful nature. Our nature is flesh and blood and desire. Paul calls it sinful flesh. But children have to be taught the commandments before sin can find an opportunity.

Romans 7:7
What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet, if it had not been for the law, I should not have known sin. I should not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”
Romans 7:8
But sin, finding opportunity in the commandment, wrought in me all kinds of covetousness. Apart from the law sin lies dead.
Romans 7:11
For sin, finding opportunity in the commandment, deceived me and by it killed me.

 

[MarkT]

I understand your words were not directed at me, but I am stirred to reply.

Jesus was a Jew, the apostles were Jews and the church began with Jews. Don't discount what they have to say.... We were grafted into the faith...

It's not a good idea to bring Jewish leaven (their teaching) into it. Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees.
Matthew 16:11
How is it that you fail to perceive that I did not speak about bread? Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sad′ducees.”
Matthew 16:12
Then they understood that he did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sad′ducees.

A little leaven leavens the whole lump. 1 Cor. 5:6

 

[dirtfarmer]

Not at all, but that was a good attempt to try and turn it without answering my question.

hello John Christian, dirtfarmer here

No attempt to try to turn anything.
What was Adam's condition after he fell? Was he still in the state of innocence or did he have a sin nature?

 

[dirtfarmer]

But still no answer to my questions

hello John Christian, dirtfarmer here

Adam was created dying physically. The reason I make this statement is because 1 Corinthians 15:50 states that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom the kingdom of God, neither does corruption inherit incorruption. Also in Genesis 3:22 it is stated: " And now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life , and eat, and live for ever."

When Adam ate of the fruit, he died immediately, but it wasn't physical death, but separation from God, which is spiritual death. If Jesus Christ had not been "the lamb slain before the foundation of the world", Elohim would have not have been able to clothe them with animal skins as a type of the slain savior, because God cannot look upon sin without judging it.

Adam lost his innocence the moment he ate of the forbidden fruit and became a sinner with a nature to sin. So, when he and Eve had children in his likeness and image , it was with a sin nature.
Genesis 3:24, " So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."

 

[MarkT]

Emmanuel, Jesus Christ, was a Jew. Judaism was Christ's religious faith and upbringing and he was fulfilling the old testament prophecies concerning Messiah.
Christianity is not the religion of Jesus. Rather, it is the religion about Jesus.

Really? When did Jesus say he was a Jew?

 

[jasonc]

Really? When did Jesus say he was a Jew?

I.am the son of David ,He didn't deny being the King of the jews.

 

[stovebolts]

It's not a good idea to bring Jewish leaven (their teaching) into it. Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees.
Matthew 16:11
How is it that you fail to perceive that I did not speak about bread? Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sad′ducees.”
Matthew 16:12
Then they understood that he did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sad′ducees.

A little leaven leavens the whole lump. 1 Cor. 5:6

I'm sorry, but not all Jews were of the sect of either religious party Jesus mentioned. Why do you hate the Jews so deeply that you would paint an entire nation with the same brush.

Have you heard of Hellel? Or what of Shammai? Do you know anything about either of them? Jesus did, and he was asked numerous times about them. I never recall Jesus bad mouthi g either.

 

[stovebolts]

Whatcha out jasonc , MarkT has it out for you and your relatives.

 

[markathome]

Romans 2:28-29
For he is NOT a Jew,
which is one outwardly;
neither is that circumcision,
which is outward in the flesh:
But he is a Jew,
which is one inwardly;
and circumcision is that of the heart,
in the Spirit,
and NOT in the Letter;
whose praise is not of men,
but of God.

All Christians are Jews by circumcision of the heart thru the Holy Spirit!