Are we born condemned with Adams sin...or innocent at birth?

[banded butterfly]

My position is we are born in sin.
Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

That verse is the song of King David. He's speaking personally, not universally. David's father lived in a time when multiple wives were permitted. What David is describing is that of his conception in adultery.
This explains the verses pertaining to the prophet Samuel. When he asked Jesse to bring forth all his sons to meet him in 1st Samuel 16.

Other than that, per God's decree, I would say no, we are not born as sinners but as innocents. Just as Adam and Eve were created in the beginning. But when they gained knowledge of the world, that was when they were able to sin and have it counted against them.
Otherwise, if souls were put by God into humans who were property of Satan first, as born sinners, what would that say of God? Being the soul is from him who is all knowing?

(Deuteronomy 24:16)--"Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."

(Ezekiel 18:20)--"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."

 

[stovebolts]

That verse is the song of King David. He's speaking personally, not universally. David's father lived in a time when multiple wives were permitted. What David is describing is that of his conception in adultery.
This explains the verses pertaining to the prophet Samuel. When he asked Jesse to bring forth all his sons to meet him in 1st Samuel 16.

Very interesting take. Do you have any Jewish sources on this? The Rashi commentary on chabad falls just short of saying that.

 

[stovebolts]

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Matthew 7:1‭-‬5 KJV

Right, they post half of a thought to make it say what they want it to say.

Judge not that he be not judged, for what judgment ye shall be judged.

Do we let everyone run around with splinters in there eyes? While we refuse to have the beam pulled out of our own?
If it takes more than one to get a splinter out of a person's eye, how many does it take to get the beam out of anothers?

Seek judgment, judge righteous judgment, relieve the poor and oppressed, we ignore all of these verses to take half a thought to make it say what we want it to say.

I don't mind if you judge me, if you can show me where I'm wrong, I would appreciate it. I would much rather be judged by you today, so I can repent, instead of standing before God one day wishing I had known. I seek judgment, I look for it, not for you, for me. If I have a beam or a splinter in my eye, would you not help me get it out? Would you leave me condemned, if I am?

Of course, if I weren't looking to be made right and think I already am, I would post just those first two verses, leaving out the rest of that thought.

I believe I have hinted at your splinter, but if it is my council on the matter you seek, then also know that my judgment is incomplete and may be lacking.

But as it stands, your opening words in regard to Adam sounded as if you yourself were judge and had authority to find fault with his deeds as one above making the same mistake he did.

I personally have not enjoyed a world in a state of harmony as complete as to that of Adam. I have never walked daily with the Lord in harmony and lack of duress. I am sure you are in agreement.

If in the shoes of Adam, we may have done the same.

 

[banded butterfly]

Very interesting take. Do you have any Jewish sources on this? The Rashi commentary on chabad falls just short of saying that.

To my knowledge it is related in the Jewish Mishnah, which is part of the Talmud.
There is this article, with footnotes. (linked)
Perhaps we can both search and see if we can find a more detailed account.
Interesting part of David's telling of his conception. It is first person. Speaking for and about himself, not universally.

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me (Psalm 51:5)

How would he be shapened in iniquity if his was a righteous conception?

 

[banded butterfly]

I do walk with the Lord.

And can any person gainsay that? God knows his own.

 

[banded butterfly]

Where do you get that David was born, personally into sin through adultery?

Where was Jesse every reprimanded for adultery

Please post the Bible scripture wherein King David's mother is named.
You know, as it is with Moses and the scriptures that tell us his mother was Jochebed, per the verse in Exodus 6:20. And Samuel, who's mother was Hannah, as related in 1 Samuel 1:1-20

 

[stovebolts]

I do walk with the Lord.

As do all Christians, for we have the Holy Spirit to guide us. Yet still we falter and fall short.
Adam was in perfect harmony with the Lord , his beloved Eve and all of creation. Neither you nor I have ever experienced that. We have experienced the effects of sin from our birth, either directly or indirectly.

Adam, on the other hand lived in a world of harmony and without the known effect of sin. Furthermore, his relationship with Eve was in harmony.

When Eve was deceived by the serpent, it was Adams first crisis, and one of epic consequence. He was loosing his love, his bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh. He had just lost his oneness that took his secludedness from not having a mate that he had experienced prior to God forming Eve.

 

[banded butterfly]

Ahem, I'd like to take a moment to say, I know that the subject of Apologetics can become contentious at times among the people of Christ.
In the spirit of community as we are commanded to love one another because God is love, I'd like to interject an opportunity to take a break from the passions that may be leading us to bark at one another, and instead, stop posting, stop typing, and breathe deeply instead.
God's breath gave the living soul to the first of our kind, our brother Adam. God's breath gave life, his power, gave life, to all that exists because our Father is the source of all that is.
And we as His sons and daughters, as sisters and brothers to one another, are a living testament of His eternal truth and word as we go about in this world and live the example of Christ and his teachings effecting our lives.
Is any topic under discussion in any forum worth becoming contentious with one another? Love one another.
Ephesians 4:32 Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

Group Hugs

 

[stovebolts]

To my knowledge it is related in the Jewish Mishnah, which is part of the Talmud.
There is this article, with footnotes. (linked)
Perhaps we can both search and see if we can find a more detailed account.
Interesting part of David's telling of his conception. It is first person. Speaking for and about himself, not universally.

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me (Psalm 51:5)

How would he be shapened in iniquity if his was a righteous conception?

An excellent read.
Thank you much.

 

[banded butterfly]

Can't, just as it can't be shown where Jesse cheated on his wife and had David through another woman.

The Psalm reads, in sin did my mother conceive me.

 

[banded butterfly]

An excellent read.
Thank you much.

You are most welcome.

 

[stovebolts]

You are most welcome.

You are the first person I have met that appreciated chabad, and could supply a reference. I always thought it neat that Ruth was a Moabite and the Messiah links directly to a convert, and a Moabite at that.

 

[jasonc]

You are the first person I have met that appreciated chabad, and could supply a reference. I always thought it neat that Ruth was a Moabite and the Messiah links directly to a convert, and a Moabite at that.

We were sending links to each other about chabad before this,lol.

I still read articles from them occasionally.

 

[stovebolts]

Yep, his spiritual mother, who turned to her own lovers and away from God.

I don't understand

 

[stovebolts]

We were sending links to each other about chabad before this,lol.

I still read articles from them occasionally.

Sorry, I meant in this thread... And since I've returned to the forum. I did think of you and our phone calls and sharing links.

 

[jasonc]

Sorry, I meant in this thread... And since I've returned to the forum. I did think of you and our phone calls and sharing links.

Ok,that's fair.I haven't foraged into chasadic jewry in a while. My nature to debate can get the better of me.

 

[stovebolts]

Ok,that's fair.I haven't foraged into chasadic jewry in a while. My nature to debate can get the better of me.

Ha, I understand. I always try to temper myself. Sometimes more so than others lol.

I do enjoy subscribed emails from Tzi.

I think our differences started over their idea of Gehenna, which I am inclined to with reservation.

 

[jasonc]

Ha, I understand. I always try to temper myself. Sometimes more so than others lol.

I do enjoy subscribed emails from Tzi.

I think our differences started over their idea of Gehenna, which I am inclined to with reservation.

And sheol.gan eden and the serpent and ha satan are different in judaism.

 

[stovebolts]

And sheol.gan eden and the serpent and ha satan are different in judaism.

Yes, and the Jov commentary I have is the best around

 

[stovebolts]

"As do all Christians, for we have the Holy Spirit to guide us. Yet still we falter and fall short." -----

Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
Luke 13:26‭-‬27 KJV

Apparently

You know, it saddens me on your false humility. You ask not for council for the sake of betterment, but rather as a leverage of contention.
You are in my prayers dear brother, and may God richly bless you with your time here.