Are we born condemned with Adams sin...or innocent at birth?

[stovebolts]

It's not a good idea to bring Jewish leaven (their teaching) into it. Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees.
Matthew 16:11
How is it that you fail to perceive that I did not speak about bread? Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sad′ducees.”
Matthew 16:12
Then they understood that he did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sad′ducees.

A little leaven leavens the whole lump. 1 Cor. 5:6

http://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article_cdo/aid/280331/jewish/Nitzevet-Mother-of-David.htm

Since you have made the charge, it is now your burden to prove anything within the above article was written by the Pharisees or Saducees.

I hope you realize how silly your argument is.

 

[stovebolts]

It is not my burden to prove. The accuser holds that responsibility.

 

[markathome]

Well the site chabad.org Can-a-Jew-believe-in-Jesus is not much different sounding then islamic sites.

I think the point MarkT was making is that by bringing in the Jewish Commentaries on matters of history or faith, Jesus warns us about this in the parable of the leaven of the Pharisees?
The Jewish oral teachings then proceed to ADD/Remove to the Scriptures resulting in some to believe them over the Scripture themselves?
If the person is looking for a answer then the Jewish oral teachings become the drug they are seeking but it's not inspired by the Holy Spirit & doesn't lead one nowhere but down a rabbit hole to Hell.
They deny Jesus was the Messiah (Anti-Christ) & have changed the Hebrew OT to further this claim over the past 2000 years.

 

[stovebolts]

John Christian
You need to learn how to edit your posts to separate your words from mine.

 

[stovebolts]

Well the site chabad.org Can-a-Jew-believe-in-Jesus is not much different sounding then islamic sites.

I think the point MarkT was making is that by bringing in the Jewish Commentaries on matters of history or faith, Jesus warns us about this in the parable of the leaven of the Pharisees?
The Jewish oral teachings then proceed to ADD/Remove to the Scriptures resulting in some to believe them over the Scripture themselves?
If the person is looking for a answer then the Jewish oral teachings become the drug they are seeking but it's not inspired by the Holy Spirit & doesn't lead one nowhere but down a rabbit hole to Hell.
They deny Jesus was the Messiah (Anti-Christ) & have changed the Hebrew OT to further this claim over the past 2000 years.

We can let Mark speak for himself.

When we post scriptures to back our point, then said scriptures need to be within said context. It's ridiculous to post what Jesus said to a specific group of people in a specific period of time and apply it to every individual across all time.

Generalities will always get you into trouble and invite strife.

As far as the Holy Spirit, we all have the Holy Spirit to guide us.... if we only are willing to listen.

Edit to add:
As far as oral teachings, are you not propagating an oral teaching? What makes your oral teaching any more significant than others besides the fact that your oral teachings support your own bias?

As for the link on David's mother. They are stories passed down to which are discussed. Even the inspired writers pulled in oral teachings into their writings. Take Moses for example. What they say in the NT cannot all be found in the Old Testiment, but they can be found in other Jewish writings.

 

[stovebolts]

Are you saying there is a whole other sect of Jews Jesus never once mentioned or pointed to?

It's not your burden to prove?? Lol
That's not a silly argument?

It's not my burden to prove that the material in the link provided are from the religious secs MarkT quoted Jesus as talking about.

 

[stovebolts]

It is common knowledge, that all of those books were around with "the Jews" Jesus was talking to and about.

But now, apparently there is some super secret sect, that Jesus never once mentioned that had it right, some super secret sect that apparently only you know about, and that Jesus approved of, and someone else needs to prove Jesus wasn't talking to this super secret sect of Jews that no one else knows about.

A super secret sect, that even David didn't know about

The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord .
Psalms 14:2‭-‬4 KJV

A super secret sect, that is never mentioned once, except by you, and now you want someone else to prove Jesus wasn't talking to them.

And you think your argument isn't silly

Wow, you really have some imagination don't you?
It's only silly to you because you are ignorant of history and the Hebrew culture. It is no wonder you have so many skewed perspectives. Paul writes about ones like you. Ones who distort the scriptures to their own destruction.

This will be my last reply to you. I have no urge nor desire to battle.

 

[Edward]

So which Jews had it right, of course, no answer, because they ALL went away backwards as David says

Geez dude. You speak in a most provocative manner and have a certain air about you that's...condescending to others. You should lighten up, considering that you're a child of God and all us folks here are your Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

 

[banded butterfly]

Really? When did Jesus say he was a Jew?

 

[banded butterfly]

Can't, because it was not about his physical birth.

Then you have no case, just supposition.
It is about his physical birth. You're interpolating scripture and that is indefensible against actual scripture.

 

[banded butterfly]

Some years ago when looking for a Christian community discussion forum I happened on a board now closed as it turns out.
There was a gentleman there who's profile described him as Christian. And yet, in every thread wherein he participated he consistently assumed the contrary position to that of the scriptural topic being discussed.Without exception. Turns out, as was posted when a moderator did some digging, this member was an atheist. They were a member of at that time, Thinking Atheists forum. And they were committed to exampling what was known as Poe's Law. Posing in this case as a Christian, with very little knowledge of actual scripture, just to draw conflict among Christians into a thread on the many turns out Christian forums he was member of.
He was banned right away. Because the site was a Christians only forum. But it is the Net and anonymity , just like in off line life, precludes even members of a physical church from knowing if someone professing themselves to be in Christ truly are. As was the case with this gentleman the proof is in the pudding and sooner or later it arises that people notice the fruits do not bear out the claim.

I just thought I'd share that as the Holy Spirit put it on my heart to recall a person long forgotten until now. Perhaps it is meant to assist others in some way .

Jesus Was a Jew

Posted on Feb 17, 2011

The biblical testimony is plain, Jesus was certainly a Jew.

 

[dirtfarmer]

I don't really need to, were you "born" of God, begotten by him?

Front to back the scriptures all speak of an adulterous woman, mystery Babylon, the mother of harlots. Hosea 2, it's all over the Bible. The church would rather chase after her lovers than obey God. The church being the spiritual woman.

hello John Christian, dirtfarmer here

As has been stated that the burden of proof is with the one who makes the post. So, what proof do you have that Hosea 2 is about the church and not about Israel.

 

[WIP]

It would seem this thread has taken a side road and has moved off topic. Let's get back on topic which is, "Are we born condemned with Adam's sin or innocent at birth?"

 

[jasonc]

Lord,to ignore that bible was written by Hebrews from their culture and perspective is ignorant.

 

[banded butterfly]

Lord,to ignore that bible was written by Hebrews from their culture and perspective is ignorant.

Or antisemitism. Which coincides with ignorance of course. Let us hope that is not the case here.

 

[banded butterfly]

Let us proceed to return to the topic. The scriptures tell us we shall not inherit the sins of the Adam. The father of humanity.

"Everyone who practices sin practices lawlessness. Sin is lawlessness." (1 John 3:4)

Ezekiel 18:19-32 (KJV)
19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.

20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?

26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

 

[banded butterfly]

It would seem this thread has taken a side road and has moved off topic. Let's get back on topic which is, "Are we born condemned with Adam's sin or innocent at birth?"

Let's get back on the positive road.

 

[MarkT]

I.am the son of David ,He didn't deny being the King of the jews.

Jesus asked this question, What do you think of the Christ? Whose son is he?” The Pharisees said, "the son of David"

41 Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question, 42 saying, “What do you think of the Christ? Whose son is he?” They said to him, “The son of David.” 43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, inspired by the Spirit, calls him Lord, saying,

44 ‘The Lord said to my Lord,
Sit at my right hand,
till I put thy enemies under thy feet’?

45 If David thus calls him Lord, how is he his son?” 46 And no one was able to answer him a word, nor from that day did any one dare to ask him any more questions. Mt. 22: 41-45

So here Jesus is saying the Christ is not David's son because David himself calls him Lord.

Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God, and God was his Father. To say he was a Jew is to bring him down to our level. But it is written in the prophets, "And they shall be taught by God." To say he was a Jew is to subject him to their authority. But in fact the Father gave him all authority in heaven and on earth.
Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

'The King of the Jews' is what the Jews charged him with saying. John 19:20-22 But Jesus said, "My kingship is not of this world"

"Pilate entered the praetorium again and called Jesus, and said to him, “Are you the King of the Jews?” 34 Jesus answered, “Do you say this of your own accord, or did others say it to you about me?” 35 Pilate answered, “Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have handed you over to me; what have you done?” 36 Jesus answered, “My kingship is not of this world; if my kingship were of this world, my servants would fight, that I might not be handed over to the Jews; but my kingship is not from the world.” 37 Pilate said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this I was born, and for this I have come into the world, to bear witness to the truth. Every one who is of the truth hears my voice.” 38 Pilate said to him, “What is truth?” John 18:33-38

Jesus was the Son of God; conceived by the Spirit of God, and not of this world.

 

[jasonc]

Jesus asked this question, What do you think of the Christ? Whose son is he?” The Pharisees said, "the son of David"

41 Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question, 42 saying, “What do you think of the Christ? Whose son is he?” They said to him, “The son of David.” 43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, inspired by the Spirit, calls him Lord, saying,

44 ‘The Lord said to my Lord,
Sit at my right hand,
till I put thy enemies under thy feet’?

45 If David thus calls him Lord, how is he his son?” 46 And no one was able to answer him a word, nor from that day did any one dare to ask him any more questions.

So here Jesus is saying the Christ is not David's son because David himself calls him Lord.

Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God, and God was his Father. To say he was a Jew is to bring him down to our level. But it is written in the prophets, "And they shall be taught by God." To say he was a Jew is to subject him to their authority.

'The King of the Jews' is what the Jews charged him with saying. John 19:20-22 But Jesus said, "My kingship is not of this world"

"Pilate entered the praetorium again and called Jesus, and said to him, “Are you the King of the Jews?” 34 Jesus answered, “Do you say this of your own accord, or did others say it to you about me?” 35 Pilate answered, “Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have handed you over to me; what have you done?” 36 Jesus answered, “My kingship is not of this world; if my kingship were of this world, my servants would fight, that I might not be handed over to the Jews; but my kingship is not from the world.” 37 Pilate said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this I was born, and for this I have come into the world, to bear witness to the truth. Every one who is of the truth hears my voice.” 38 Pilate said to him, “What is truth?” John 18:33-38

Jesus was the Son of God; conceived by the Spirit of God, not of this world.

so you don't believe in that Jesus had a physical body, not a lawful right to be a ruler over Isreal. might want to read what the prophets say about him. I'm not even a millenist and I see fault in your case right here. who said that I lowered him? he took on Our nature. what exactly did he speak? English? seriously he came to the Jews and was there messiah. not yours, but theirs first and by extension he becomes yours. Our God is Jewish one. His name is a Hebrew one not a gentile given one.

 

[banded butterfly]

The onus is on MarkT to prove with scripture the absolute they claim about Emmanuel. That Emmanuel was not a Jew.

Proceed MarkT. Or retract the inference and accept the scriptures as written. Both old and new testaments.