Arminianism and Calvinism

[Avigdor]

[

First of all, we have to understand that Romans 9 to 11 is speaking about Israel.
There's no doubting this. It's not me saying this, but very learned theologians.
I don't only listen to what my church tells me, I also learn on my own.

Let's do a little study here. For you and for those who may be reading along.

The New International Standard Version (NIV) which is no friend of Arminianism (or loss of salvation) states:

Major Theme
"Although justification by faith has been suggested by some as the theme, it would seem that a broader theme states the message of the book more adequately. Paul's emphasis on "righteousness from God" (1:17) includes justification by faith, but it also embraces such related themes as, guilt, sanctification and security."


Content
"Paul then shows that Israel too, though presently in a sate of unbelief, has a place in God's sovereign redemptive plan. Now she consists of only a remnant, allowing for the conversion of the Gentiles, but the time will come when all Israel will be saved. (11:26)".

Special Characteristics
"Widespread use of O.T. quotations. Although Paul regularly quotes from the O.T. in his letters, in Romans the argument is sometimes carried along by such quotations..see especially chs. 9-11."

Outline
VI God's Righteousness Vindicated:The Justice of His Way with Israel (chs. 9-11)
A. The Justice of God's Rejection of Israel (9:1-29)
B. The Cause of That Rejection (9:30-10:21)
C. The Rejection Is Neither Complete Nor Final (ch 11)
1. There is even now a remnant (11:1-10)
2. The rejection is only temporary (11:11-24)
3. God's ultimate purpose is mercy (11:25-36)

source: NIV Study Bible, Zondervan

You may use any bible you wish. If you read the introduction to the book of Romans you'll find that the above holds true.

To answer your verses posted:
Romans 9:16
Is speaking about Esau and Jacob.
God knew that Jacob would be the blessed one.
He knew that Esau did not deserve the blessing because he would forfeit his inheritance for a bowl of "soup". God decided, based on foreknowledge, that the blessing would belong to Jacob.

God shows mercy based on whom He knows is deserving because that person will choose Christ. His mercy is based on our choice for Christ.

Romans 9:20
This verse does not refer to a man but to "humankind".
That would be ALL of us. It's saying that God has the right to form salvation economy as He wishes, not as man wishes.
See Job 38:4-18 which is similar in thought.

Romans chapters 9 to 11 is speaking about Israel.

So. Just curious. If as you say, God shows mercy on those who are worthy, because they are deserving, does that mean you feel worthy? And if the worthiness is because God foresees that you will choose Christ, how exactly then is that mercy? Wouldn't it be your due? What you are owed?

 

[Avigdor]

You're right Cygnus.
When we're born we're all lost.
My point, which you have difficulty with, is that if God is a loving and just God, He will either let all these lost souls just be condemned.

IF, He chooses some over others to be saved, He is no longer a just God.
How could He possibly be if He chooses some to go to hell?
That is completely unjust.
Romans 2:11
Acts 10:34

In Romans it is the same Paul speaking that you claim says God chooses whom will be saved.
In Acts it is Peter speaking. He spent 3 1/2 years with Jesus and know more about what Jesus taught than R.C. Sproul, or anyone else.

With all due respect, I really believe you need to study Romans 9 to 11 very carefully with an open mind.

Wondering
We all deserve hell. That is justice. That God chooses some to give to Christ, that is why it is called mercy. That is why it is grace by which you have been saved. If you believe that means you have been shown mercy, even if you think it is because you chose. Mercy and justice belong to God. Not our human point of view or judgement.

 

[GodsGrace]

Wondering
We all deserve hell. That is justice. That God chooses some to give to Christ, that is why it is called mercy. That is why it is grace by which you have been saved. If you believe that means you have been shown mercy, even if you think it is because you chose. Mercy and justice belong to God. Not our human point of view or judgement.

God explained Himself to us in human terms.
It's all we can understand.

So the word JUST and JUSTICE is used in the O.T. and the N.T.
What does Justice mean?

I'm not saying you don't know....
I'm asking you what it means to you so we could continue.

 

[GodsGrace]

[

So. Just curious. If as you say, God shows mercy on those who are worthy, because they are deserving, does that mean you feel worthy? And if the worthiness is because God foresees that you will choose Christ, how exactly then is that mercy? Wouldn't it be your due? What you are owed?

That post goes back over 2 years.
I doubt I said what you stated above because the statement is wrong.
Where did I say that some are WORHTY?
Could you highlight please?

So are you saying God is ONLY MERCIFUL because He chooses SOME for salvation,
BUT if He gives me the OPPORTUNITY to be saved by telling me HOW,,,
then He is NOT merciful?

Please read back what you just thought and tell me how calvinism makes any logical sense.

 

[Avigdor]

God explained Himself to us in human terms.
It's all we can understand.

So the word JUST and JUSTICE is used in the O.T. and the N.T.
What does Justice mean?

I'm not saying you don't know....
I'm asking you what it means to you so we could continue.

I would explain justice, as used concerning God, as what is absolute right, and fair.
Just as applied to God is the ultimate and final authority on moral standard. Because He is perfect in all His attributes He is the one who knows what is just.
The Bible tells us believers are Justified in Christ. In theology it means that His life, death and resurection declares us made righteous in the sight of God. Justice has been met in regards to our sinful standing before God. Jesus has paid the price that God's perfect justice demands.