Arminianism and Calvinism

[OzSpen]

Well when one feels as if God owes fallen humanity mercy, I guess it does sound strange doesn’t it? But Paul anticipated this strange understanding you have.. Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth. Thou will say then unto me, Why doth He yet find fault? Who hath resisted His will? Romans 9:18-19. The Westminster confession put it beautifully. No believer will disagree with what was said in what you quoted from it

MCoop,

My theology is not built on how 'one feels'. My 'strange understanding' (a goading comment) is backed by Scripture.

What I find amazing is how you have cherry-picked 2 verses from Rom 9 (vv 18-19). I agree with these verses that God has mercy on whomever he wills and hardens whomever he wills. However, the context is Moses and Pharaoh.

If we go to Rom 9:30-33 (NIV) - still in the same chapter and explaining how vv 18-19 can be applied to salvation:

What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame” (emphasis added).​

So, for Gentiles, righteousness comes by faith for anyone who believes in Jesus. There is no thought of you're in and you're out here - by the sovereign will of God.

There are simple steps to the solution to why some accept and others reject salvation. These steps are not comprehensive and you probably will take exception to some. I don’t expect Calvinists to endorse any action of free will in salvation:

1. Salvation is by grace through faith, without good works (Eph 2:8-9 NIV).
2. ‘Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ’ (Rom 10:17 NIV). There is no salvation through exposure to natural revelation (e.g. Rom 1:18ff), but a person must hear or read the Gospel message.
3. ‘You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life’ (John 5:39-40 ESV). Individual choice is involved. People refuse to come – for various reasons. Jesus’ words are profound, ‘Yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life’. They refuse to come. They have the free will to receive or reject. This is Jesus telling us part of his theology of salvation (soteriology).
4. ‘No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them (sic), and I will raise them (sic) up at the last day’ (John 6:44 NIV). The Father draws; he does not drag people into the kingdom through unconditional election or irresistible grace. The drawing is not forceful, to the point of giving no other alternative. Is this drawing made possible for ALL people and not the ELECT ONLY? Jesus answers that: 'And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself' (John 12:32 NIV).
   
5. We know from Titus 2:11 (ESV) that ‘the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people’. This grace of God appeared with the passion-resurrection of Jesus, making salvation available to all. Yes, ALL!
6. The fact is that people who hear the Gospel are drawn by the Father, but they have a choice to make – accept or reject the Gospel. The human will has been freed to enable human beings to make a decision for or against Christ. Human beings who are dead in sin are freed to believe by God himself.
7. There is a godly mystery (1 Cor 2:7 NIV) involved in how God, by his Spirit, takes the message of salvation, exposes human beings to it, they are drawn (not forced) by the Father, and they have the choice to reject or ‘believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved – you and your household’ (Acts 16:31 NIV).
8. In this process, Satan’s influence cannot be under-estimated in influencing people to reject salvation. We are reminded in 1 Peter 5:8 (NIV), ‘Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour’. Satan the deceiver and devourer of all things good, including the Gospel, should not be ignored (from my article,
   Salvation by grace but not by force: A person chooses to believe).

Leave out the free will choice – as Calvinists do – and it excludes a core element in the reception of the Gospel by people. Exclude free will and you eliminate what Jesus included: ‘You refuse to come to me that you may have life’ (John 5:40 ESV).

That is not a 'strange understanding' but a biblical understanding.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

And I am very familiar with pelagianism/Arminianism.

Please provide your evidence that Pelagianism = Arminianism.

 

[OzSpen]

And I am very familiar with pelagianism/Arminianism. There is nothing in scripture that justifies sinful man has the will or ability to come to Christ in truth. But yet Arminians love to use John 3:16 to espouse free will and self sovereignty. Who’s stopping whosoever from coming to Christ? Whosoever mourns over their sin and seeks deliverance from it, let them come! Whosoever hungers and thirst for righteousness, let them come! Whosoever seeks mercy, let them come unto Christ, for He alone gives rest to the weary guilty sinner. Eternal life is in Christ! Righteousness and forgiveness is in Christ Jesus! What “Calvinist” denies this? None. But let it be known, that those who do come to Christ in faith have been chosen to do so by Gods Sovereign grace. Acts 13:48. That’s a truth the Arminian can’t receive. You say God owes us nothing but yet will call God unjust for choosing to show mercy on some and not others. Just be honest

You seem to have forgotten the opening verses of 1 Peter 1:1-2 (NIV),

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.​

So God's election of these Christian Jews to salvation was based on 'the foreknowledge of God the Father'. It was not based on unconditional election and irresistible grace.

What is God's foreknowledge? In Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology, this biblical definition is provided:

Foreknowledge

In his omniscience God knows what the future holds both for individuals and for nations. He knows and sees everything in advance and his will is carried out in accord with his plans and purposes. In the Old Testament God's foreknowledge is usually represented by the verb yada [[;d"y], which is the normal verb for "know." In the New Testament the main verbs are proginosko [proginwvskw], "to know in advance, " and proorao, "to see what is ahead." Foreknowledge is closely connected to election and predestination and to God's sovereign rule of his universe.

As the all-knowing One, God knows everything about us, including "all the days ordained for me before one of them came to be" ( Psalm 139:16 ). He knows our thoughts and words even before they are expressed ( Psalm 139:4 ; Matt 26:34 ), and he can determine our life's work before we are born. Jeremiah was set apart in the womb to be a prophet, chosen to minister to the nations ( Jer 1:5 ). The idea of choice is also evident in the call of Abraham to be the founder of God's covenant nation. When Genesis 18:19 says "I have chosen him, " the verb is literally "I knew him." The same is true of Amos's description of Israel, "You only have I chosen of all the families of the earth" ( 3:2a ). Compare Paul's statement in Romans 11:2: "God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew." God's sovereign choice of Israel established a unique relationship with a particular people.

Through the ministry of the Old Testament prophets, God often revealed specific information about the future. Micaiah accurately predicted that Ahab would die in an upcoming battle ( 1 Kings 22:17 ). Elisha knew that the Syrian siege of Samaria would be lifted the next day ( 2 Kings 7:1 ), and Isaiah anticipated the coming of the Persian king Cyrus, who would rescue Israel from exile ( 41:2 ; 44:28 ; 45:1 ). Isaiah also spoke of the advent of the Servant of the Lord who would come to Zion to be the Redeemer of the world ( 42:1 ; 59:20 ; 61:1 ). And Isaiah's contemporary, Micah, prophesied that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem (5:2).

In accomplishing his purposes, God is able to work through the evil actions of those who have no desire to do his will. When Joseph's brothers sold him as a slave, God was in reality sending Joseph to devise a plan that would save the whole family from starvation ( Gen 45:5-7 ). The brothers intended to harm him, but God knew that many lives would be saved through Joseph's wise planning ( 50:20 ). By storing food in Egypt, Joseph partially fulfilled the promise to Abraham that "all peoples on earth will be blessed through you" ( Gen 12:3 ).

In the New Testament God's foreknowledge is clearly linked to the death of Christ and to the salvation of the elect. "Before the creation of the world" Christ was "chosen" or "foreknown" to be the Redeemer ( 1 Peter 1:20 ), a clear indication that God knew from the beginning that humankind would fall into sin. On the day of Pentecost the apostle Peter denounced the wicked men who put Christ to death, but he acknowledged that they had acted in accord with "God's set purpose and foreknowledge" ( Acts 2:23 ). Evil rulers conspired to kill the Son of God, but yet his death was something that God "had decided beforehand should happen" ( Acts 4:28 ).

The same juxtaposition of foreknowledge, election, and predestination also applies to individual salvation. We, too, were chosen "before the creation of the world, " in accord with the foreknowledge of God ( Eph 1:4 ; 1 Peter 1:2 ). And the apostle Paul tells us that "those God foreknow" were also predestined and called to be justified by faith ( Rom 8:29-30 ). In each case foreknowledge precedes election and is intricately linked with God's will and purpose. Yet we should not think of this as some kind of fatalism or determinism. God does not force anyone to become a believer but works in a person's heart so that the individual freely chooses to receive Christ as Savior. When Pharaoh refused to let the Israelites leave Egypt, it appeared that he had no choice, because God would harden his heart ( Exod 4:21 ). But not until the sixth plague does the text say that the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart ( Exod 9:12 ). During the first five plagues Pharaoh hardened his own heart, refusing to listen to Moses and Aaron; after that the Lord confirmed him in his hardened condition ( Exod 7:13-14 ; Exodus 8:15 Exodus 8:19 Exodus 8:32 ). In accord with his sovereign purposes, God brings some to salvation and others to perdition (source).​

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry, I don't see how my signature quote refers to Titus 3. I am familiar with the whole chapter. Especially the part about quarreling over the law.
Good works don't save us. Yes, I know this. However our regenerated spirit and self in Christ leads to our being gracious and doing good in this world. And that makes all the difference.
If we could work our way to Heaven Jesus' death would have been for no purpose as described in his Gospel teachings.

And let's not forget 1 Timothy 1:9 He who has given us life and has called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his will and the grace which has been given to us in Yeshua The Messiah before the time of the world,

I think it goes back to the warning about not judging on appearances but using righteous judgment. John 7.
I've met those who say they're Christian and they're a real hoot. I've met Christians that are the role model for the calling.
We're not able to say who is or is not in Christ. Not even due to the behaviors of such a one's. God knows. I've got a lot of years ahead of me. My time is now as a Christian. Following the call of the Holy Spirit that indwells me and as we know, leads us to all truth. But we can't be led until we relax our own sense of pride and ego that got us along in this world before we came to Christ.

Hi AH,

I was speaking to @Payrus-Dust...
In her signature line she quotes Titus but she is against works.
I don't understand this belief system, but we all are following our road to heaven.
As usual, I agree with all you've stated above.

[I noticed that this has happened before.
Check the Quote to see who the post is for]

 

[GodsGrace]

Just my 2 cents worth, if that, is that both Calvinism and Arminianism miss the mark on major doctrines.

Problems with Calvinism:
1. Christ died only for some, whatever one wishes to call them: frozen chosen, etc. 2 Cor 5:14,15, 19, Heb 2:9 and 1 John 2:2 plainly state that Christ's death was for everyone.
2. unconditional election is to salvation. If that were true, then faith is unnecessary for salvation. Salvation is DIRECTLY LINKED to faith in Jesus Christ. Eph 2:8,9, John 3:16, Acts 16:31. Election is to service, per Acts 9:15.

Problems with Arminianism:
1. one can lose salvation. However, from post #114, 11 verses were cited that teach that eternal life is possessed (present tense) by those who believe in Christ. Apart from any evidence of any kind of probationary time period before this gift is received, we know that it is received WHEN one believes. Then, Jesus plainly stated that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Slam dunk.

These are the major discrepancies.

Hi FreeGrace
Thanks for contributing to this thread.
I appreciate the above.

I do wonder what others believe are the problems with each belief system.
IMHO, the biggest problem I have with Calvinism is the fact that that system believes that GOD chooses whom will be saved. It boggles my mind as to how anyone cannot see from scripture that God calls us (everyone) but we must reply.

It's our free will choice that makes our love for God valuable to him.
Ephesians 1:6-14 At the end we will receive our inheritance, which is heaven.

Once again,
John 3:16

 

[GodsGrace]

I saw the other thread about this that someone here mentioned. I think you all are making very complicated what is a very simple truth.

Those who are redeemed in Christ are saved. Forever.
Those that are not redeemed, even if they're faking it or think they are, God knows the truth about. Because he knows who he's called to his grace and who are not truly receptive. Matthew 22.
John 15:16 “You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.” 2Timothy 1:9 “God, who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began.”

We were cleansed of all sin when we came before our Savior. 1John 1:7 And he will never abandon us. Even if we abandon him we are still his because God chose us, we didn't choose him. We answered his calling in whatever situation we found ourselves in at the time that made us open to hearing his plea. "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself." 2 Timothy 2:13
We will never hunger or thirst. John 6. And we shall never perish. John 10.

It really isn't that complicated until or unless we start believing the terms and conditions traditions want to strap onto the simple message of free grace and eternal life through Salvation in our Lord. Then it gets kind of wonky and people tend to get mad at each other because each one thinks they have something to defend about themselves, and what they hold dear.
When really the testament Jesus was born to give us is the dearest holding any Christian has.

So far I've agreed with you on all you've said.
But above you do say something which is incredibly misunderstood by those who believe in eternal security.

I also believe in eternal security for as long as you trust in Jesus for your salvation.
IOW, the same belief that saved you is going to keep you saved.
What if you stop believing and return to a life of sin? Are you still saved?

If faith saves us..
Ephesians 2:8
How could no longer having faith still keep us saved?

2 Timothy 2:13
"If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny HIMSELF".

What do you suppose it means that God remains faithful to Himself?
If God DOES remain faithful to Himself, He certainly must require faith for one to be saved.
He does NOT remain faithful to the unbeliever, He remains faithful to HIMSELF.
To what He did for us on the cross...to what He deems just...to HIMSELF and HIS requirements.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes I agree. But for those two I was referring to don’t believe this apart from their works

This thread is about Aminianism and Calvinism.
Neither Arminians nor Calvinists believe a person is saved by their works.
It would be nice if we stopped saying this.

 

[GodsGrace]

2 Timothy 1 too. Verse 9 here, Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began

Then there's the Book of Luke chapter 10, verse 22. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

Even Jesus knew what His Father was doing before we would.
Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world." That's in the Book of John chapter 17 and verse 24

Not to mention the Lamb's book. Those who's names aren't in it are to be thrown into the lake of fire. All of this though is preset by God's will. It isn't anything we have control over, or the ability to make happen. God desired it in the beginning and we who heed His calling respond because we know each other.

2 Timothy 1:9
New American Standard Bible
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

I'm sure the above is something with which both Arminians and Calvinists agree.
It says that God called us to a holy work, we had nothing to do with God's eternal plan.
From the beginning God planned to save us through Jesus, our Savior. HE defeated death through His work on the cross.
Genesis 3:15


Luke 10:22
22“All things have been handed over to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

[AND WHO ARE THOSE SOMEONE'S??]:

23Turning to the disciples, He said privately, “Blessed are the eyes which see the things you see, 24for I say to you, that many prophets and kings wished to see the things which you see, and did not see them, and to hear the things which you hear, and did not hear them.”

25And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?” 27And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 28And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.”

Right after Luke 10:22 someone asked Jesus how to inherit eternal life.
Did Jesus say not to worry because God Father has already chosen those saved?
NO.
Jesus tells the person HOW to be saved --- which means that ANYONE following Jesus' answer CAN be saved. ANYONE.

We cannot pick verses without also reading what comes before them and what comes after.
IOW, context.

As to the book of life, we can be blotted out of the Book of Life if we do not adhere to its conditions.
God foreknew who would believe and wrote those names in a Book of Life.
But, as we learn in Revelation 3:5, since we have free will, we must adhere to its conditions:
Revelation 3:5
1“To the angel of the church in Sardis write:
He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.
2‘Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God.
3‘So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.
4‘But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.
5‘He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
6‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments, and I WILL NOT ERASE his name from the book of life...

This means that a name CAN be erased.

 

[GodsGrace]

Can it be blotted out ?

Brujaq
In keeping with Calvinism, artful horizon horizon has replied NO to your above question, in fact we find that a name CAN be blotted out if the conditions God has set are not kept.
See Rev 3:5 and my reply no. 228.

 

[civilwarbuff]

i did GOD spoke to me said NOW or never .i chose now

My own experience sounds similar.......

 

[eddif]

I really would like a fairly long, slower, discussion on total depravity.

To me it may help some in the whole thread.

Others have their own points to make, and I would just bog down the process.

1. What is bible total depravity?
2. Did it ever exist?
3. What was God’s up front solution?
4. What did God do?
5. Was it a permanent solution?
6. What is today’s equivalent to total depravity?
7. Was there a permanent solution?
8. What makes it permanent?
9. Who cares?
10. More questions?

Wondering?
You want to start another thread with total depravity in parenthesis?
PEMDAS included?

I am pretty sure my thoughts would wreck this broad thread.

One meat in a vessel at one time? Cooking theology is an art. An art that rednecks seem not to have.

eddif

 

[GodsGrace]

I really would like a fairly long, slower, discussion on total depravity.

To me it may help some in the whole thread.

Others have their own points to make, and I would just bog down the process.

1. What is bible total depravity?
2. Did it ever exist?
3. What was God’s up front solution?
4. What did God do?
5. Was it a permanent solution?
6. What is today’s equivalent to total depravity?
7. Was there a permanent solution?
8. What makes it permanent?
9. Who cares?
10. More questions?

Wondering?
You want to start another thread with total depravity in parenthesis?
PEMDAS included?

I am pretty sure my thoughts would wreck this broad thread.

One meat in a vessel at one time? Cooking theology is an art. An art that rednecks seem not to have.

eddif

No. I was planning to do this here.
So far we've gotten to Election and Perseverance.
Total depravity in Calvinism is equal to the Sin Nature in Arminianism.

I hate putting persons into "camps", but, after all, we all do have opinions.
Go ahead and start.
What IS total depravity?
What IS the sin nature? (or I'll do that since it's what I've learned)

 

[Cygnus]

Cygnus,

In the light of your objection to the Arminian concept of free will, how does your explanation here line up with the teaching on free will in Joshua 24:15 (NIV)?

But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord' (emphasis added).​

Oz

Don't you choose everyday?

The question is freewill towards salvation.

My chief problem with the Arminian views on free will is this...

Your choice of accepting or rejecting Christ is based upon your individual path in life coupled with happenstance.
If you get dealt a good hand you might accept Christ. If you get dealt a bad hand you may tend to reject Christ.
In other words your choice to accept or reject Christ really isn't your own but the bias life gave you.

For example there are some people who hate certain groups of people. The reason for their hate might be that's what they were taught. Their bias may be that they will always hate that particular group of people. In a sense they will never choose that particular group of people as "friends". Their bias has stripped them of the possibility for friendship.

 

[Cygnus]

What did the Philippian jailer do when he asked this of Paul & Silas?

29 The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 He then brought them out and asked, ‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?’

31 They replied, ‘Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved – you and your household.’ 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. 33 At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptised (Acts 16:29-33 NIV).​

This rebellious Philippian jailed who was dead in his sins was able to ask Paul and Silas, 'Sirs, what must I do to be saved?'

Paul & Silas's simple message was, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved – you and your household'. They did NOT say, 'You will not be able to believe in the Lord Jesus until regeneration comes first. Then you'll be able to have faith'. Even though dead in trespasses and sin, the jailer and household could believe.

How is that possible? Titus 2:4 (ESV) explains: 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people'.

God's salvation is brought to all people, but only those who choose to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ are saved.

Oz

The jailer didn't know how to be saved...he had to ask.
God had given the jailer the ability..John 6:65.

You have a problem with your use of Titus 2:4 (ESV) explains: 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people'.
have all people been saved? You post as if bringing salvation for all people occurs....universalism.

 

[Cygnus]

Try 2 Peter 3:9 (NIV): 'The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance'.

Oz

Once again you have a problem with your understanding...Some people perish. Does your God not get what He wants?

This should read: I disagree with your understanding...

 

[PeterJens]

I really would like a fairly long, slower, discussion on total depravity.

To me it may help some in the whole thread.

Others have their own points to make, and I would just bog down the process.

1. What is bible total depravity?
2. Did it ever exist?
3. What was God’s up front solution?
4. What did God do?
5. Was it a permanent solution?
6. What is today’s equivalent to total depravity?
7. Was there a permanent solution?
8. What makes it permanent?
9. Who cares?
10. More questions?

Wondering?
You want to start another thread with total depravity in parenthesis?
PEMDAS included?

I am pretty sure my thoughts would wreck this broad thread.

One meat in a vessel at one time? Cooking theology is an art. An art that rednecks seem not to have.

eddif

I find the concept of "total depravity" an interesting one because it is very miss-understood.
Man is incapable of not destroying himself and all he touches.
God said knowing the knowledge of good and evil would lead to death.

Believers have extended this to mean sinners would be fine if God did not judge them.
I now think if God did not bring some justice and order into the world we would have destroyed it
a long time ago. So it is God who is keeping things going and man who continually works in the other
direction.

And for me the answer to this destructive tendency is communion with God. In this relationship is the
power of life and love.

Some go a bit further to say even in communion with God man is flawed and can never walk like Jesus.
I would say this is a step too far. God accepts people of many different backgrounds and was of expressing
themselves from Noah, Moses, Elijah, Samson, David, John the baptist. Rather than rejection God worked with
their weaknesses and failures, encouraged and lead them into great things for the Kingdom.

Paul and the apostles held out the view we are Holy and acceptable to God walking in the Holy Spirit.
We judge ourselves far harsher than God does, which is unusual as we see Him as the judge and we failed
sinners not managing to do anything. It is always us like Moses who says we are not capable of that to which God
has called us, because we get scared of failure.

 

[PeterJens]

Where did you get that "information"?
Citations please.

And, if "total inability to walk righteously was not a theological position" for 1600 years then it was not a theological position for the apostles who wrote the NT and taught the next generation of believers.

It wasn't a "theological position" until someone invented it.

Jim, I hope others have answered this point.
Paul calls us God Holy people, pure, blameless, washed clean.

This language would not work with a total inabililty doctrine. When this was first raised it made me wonder
why people accepted the idea of different levels of inherited sin. The idea did not seem to work for me or in
scripture. God recognised group ownership of sinful behaviour which supports some idea of the effects of sin

Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.
Exodus 34:7

Paul talks about children being made Holy by a believing parent
For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.
1 cor 7:14

Now if we hold it is impossible to be Holy then Paul must be wrong, as well as Peter

Be holy, because I am holy
1 Peter 1:16

Our view of holiness is probably wrong, ie a cleansed vessel is holy because it has been
cleansed not because it is without issues in design, look and beauty.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Your choice of accepting or rejecting Christ is based upon your individual path in life coupled with happenstance.
If you get dealt a good hand you might accept Christ. If you get dealt a bad hand you may tend to reject Christ.
In other words your choice to accept or reject Christ really isn't your own but the bias life gave you.

That is far too simplistic of an explanation. I think we all know people (least ways I do) who are at the end of their rope either emotionally, physically, financially, etc, and finally turn to God and receive what they needed in the first place: forgiveness, peace and hope.
Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.

 

[ezra]

Don't you choose everyday?

The question is freewill towards salvation.

My chief problem with the Arminian views on free will is this...

Your choice of accepting or rejecting Christ is based upon your individual path in life coupled with happenstance.
If you get dealt a good hand you might accept Christ. If you get dealt a bad hand you may tend to reject Christ.
In other words your choice to accept or reject Christ really isn't your own but the bias life gave you.

For example there are some people who hate certain groups of people. The reason for their hate might be that's what they were taught. Their bias may be that they will always hate that particular group of people. In a sense they will never choose that particular group of people as "friends". Their bias has stripped them of the possibility for friendship.

right there is your problem you do not understand free will.the plan of salvation is offered freely freely given the plan of salvation cost us nothing.. when you got save yes the spirit drew you.. you could have rejected there is the free will. Paul wrote quench not the spirit . when he stands at the door of our heart and knocks. it is up to us to open up our heart . yes God gives us a new heart and a heart to know him. i dont know nothing about this irresistible Grace.. nothing is forced up on us..Jesus said come unto me..

Your choice of accepting or rejecting Christ is based upon your individual path in life coupled with happenstance.
If you get dealt a good hand you might accept Christ. If you get dealt a bad hand you may tend to reject Christ.
In other words your choice to accept or reject Christ really isn't your own but the bias life gave you.

so where did you get this load of misinformation at some story book of fairy tales? do me a favor go to a church that you know teaches free will ..just go in and listen to the message. as per bad hands as you say ..do you have any idea the number bad hands .i been dealt? what your describing is the seeds sown different levels of hearing . but those on the good ground brought forth fruit

 

[FreeGrace]

Hi FreeGrace
Thanks for contributing to this thread.
I appreciate the above.

Thank you.

I do wonder what others believe are the problems with each belief system.
IMHO, the biggest problem I have with Calvinism is the fact that that system believes that GOD chooses whom will be saved. It boggles my mind as to how anyone cannot see from scripture that God calls us (everyone) but we must reply.

Calvinists are correct in that God does choose who will be saved. It's His plan for mankind, after all. However, Calvinists totally fail to understand that God's choice for who to save is believers.

In their system, God unilaterally (unconditionally) chooses who will be saved. And in that system, God has to regenerate the person so that they WILL believe. So to them, regeneration precedes faith, but they can't show a single verse that teaches that idea.

That's how they get around the many verses teaching we are saved by faith.

If God chooses whom to save without condtitions, then faith is irrelevant to salvation in reality. God simply "gives them the faith to believe" or some such idea.

Yet, Scripture is very clear that faith precedes salvation.

It's our free will choice that makes our love for God valuable to him.

Amen! And only that.

Ephesians 1:6-14 At the end we will receive our inheritance, which is heaven.

Once again,
John 3:16

I do see 2 kinds of inheritances in Scripture. One is simply because we are God's children. The other one is based on suffering with Christ, in order to share in His glory. Rom 8:17.

So one is based solely on grace. Nothing we earn or deserve. The other is based on enduring for Him (2 Tim 2:12) and suffering for Him. Which is where eternal rewards come in.