Arminianism and Calvinism

[Cygnus]

I saw the other thread about this that someone here mentioned. I think you all are making very complicated what is a very simple truth.

Those who are redeemed in Christ are saved. Forever.
Those that are not redeemed, even if they're faking it or think they are, God knows the truth about. Because he knows who he's called to his grace and who are not truly receptive. Matthew 22.
John 15:16 “You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.” 2Timothy 1:9 “God, who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began.”

We were cleansed of all sin when we came before our Savior. 1John 1:7 And he will never abandon us. Even if we abandon him we are still his because God chose us, we didn't choose him. We answered his calling in whatever situation we found ourselves in at the time that made us open to hearing his plea. "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself." 2 Timothy 2:13
We will never hunger or thirst. John 6. And we shall never perish. John 10.

It really isn't that complicated until or unless we start believing the terms and conditions traditions want to strap onto the simple message of free grace and eternal life through Salvation in our Lord. Then it gets kind of wonky and people tend to get mad at each other because each one thinks they have something to defend about themselves, and what they hold dear.
When really the testament Jesus was born to give us is the dearest holding any Christian has.

We can add to that....1 Cor 6:19 Do you not know that your bodyis a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God with your body.

As those washed by the blood of Christ...purchased by Christ, we are not our own. We belong to Christ. We can't walk away from our salvation.

 

[MCoop]

I would say coming to Christ is salvation which includes eternal life.

Yes I agree. But for those two I was referring to don’t believe this apart from their works

 

[MCoop]

It teaches God has to grant your the ability to come to Christ....Just following Jesus around isn't considered as coming to Christ.

Therefore said I unto you, that NO MAN CAN COME UNTO ME except it were given unto him of my Father. John 6:65. No doubt this scripture speaks of divine election

 

[Cygnus]

Therefore said I unto you, that NO MAN CAN COME UNTO ME except it were given unto him of my Father. John 6:65. No doubt this scripture speaks of divine election

The only choice for the man not given the ability by the Father...would be to not choose Christ.

 

[artful horizon]

Therefore said I unto you, that NO MAN CAN COME UNTO ME except it were given unto him of my Father. John 6:65. No doubt this scripture speaks of divine election

2 Timothy 1 too. Verse 9 here, Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began

Then there's the Book of Luke chapter 10, verse 22. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

Even Jesus knew what His Father was doing before we would.
Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world." That's in the Book of John chapter 17 and verse 24

Not to mention the Lamb's book. Those who's names aren't in it are to be thrown into the lake of fire. All of this though is preset by God's will. It isn't anything we have control over, or the ability to make happen. God desired it in the beginning and we who heed His calling respond because we know each other.

 

[brujaq]

2 Timothy 1 too. Verse 9 here, Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began

Then there's the Book of Luke chapter 10, verse 22. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

Even Jesus knew what His Father was doing before we would.
Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world." That's in the Book of John chapter 17 and verse 24

Not to mention the Lamb's book. Those who's names aren't in it are to be thrown into the lake of fire. All of this though is preset by God's will. It isn't anything we have control over, or the ability to make happen. God desired it in the beginning and we who heed His calling respond because we know each other.

Can it be blotted out ?

 

[artful horizon]

Can it be blotted out ?

No.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Since I don't claim to represent either Calvinism or Arminianism it makes no difference to me.

That is what I believe.

Coming to Jesus to hear the Gospel and obey the Gospel and endure to the end with Him is how we will receive the salvation of our soul As the end result of our faith.


6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
1 Peter 1:6-9

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

If you don't believe those who come to Jesus must obey the Gospel and endure to the end in order to receive the salvation of their soul, then please explain why.



JLB

Except that this thread is about Arminianism and Calvinism. So posts must focus on that and this cannot turn into another OCAS. I realize that the topic of salvation enters in as both A and C define it differently. But in general, the OP is about Arminianism and Calvinism in the bigger picture and we shouldn't endlessly focus on a single aspect. I'm trying nice to say, you've made your point on this so let's move on.

 

[Papa Zoom]

People, once you've made your point on an issue, let's not keep repeating it back and forth. Move the conversation forward please. And don't turn this into a OSAS thread. Thank you to those of you that are addressing Arminianism and Calvinism as per the OP.

 

[Cygnus]

Can it be blotted out ?

No.

Rev 22:19...is it tree of life or Book of life?

NAS and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

KJV And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


Edited
After reading Papa Zooms post I created a new thread asking this question.
Please respond here.

 

[WIP]

I have deleted a number of posts because they failed to follow moderator request. This thread is not about OSAS vs OSNAS. Stay on topic.

 

[artful horizon]

Those verses do not address grace vs. law.

I was going back to find if anything I posted was still here and saw this. You're right. Because the Christian today is in the new covenant. Law is done away. God's gift of his free grace and eternal salvation is the covenant now. And those verses you were talking to exist and pertain to that fact.
Romans 6:23
2 Timothy 2:19

 

[GodsGrace]

They don't do it for the glory of God.....they do it for social reasons.


Pretty dead. So dead we can't choose Jesus. In fact we can't come to believe unless God enables us to believe John 6:65. That's how dead we are.
While we were dead...God made us alive.
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions

As to John 3:16...I fail to see your point.


If you believe in Christ Jesus...your saved.

Cygnus,
Two things...

1. Dead in transgressions just means that we are spriritually dead.
I'm sure you know that there are 3 types of death,
Spriitual
Physical
Eterna.

You feel to see the point with John 3:16?
Could you please exegete John 3:16 for us?

2. I've written you very important posts.
no. 46, 51, 52 are just some samples.

It would be appreciated if you actually replied to posts I put much time in.
I don't like to just make quick remarks. I'd really like to understand Calvinism.

You might have replied, I was away all day. If so, I apologize,
If not, could you please do this?

 

[Cygnus]

1. Dead in transgressions just means that we are spriritually dead.

Exactly....and the spiritually dead...can't choose Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

(sighs) I think of the sins any man commits with relish when thinking themselves able to invent a doctrine in their name while imparting Christ's teachings need a bit of a tweak to make sense.
John Calvin was a lawyer by trade first. He then became a theologian thinking to blend the laws of the spirit into the laws of God. He was also a twisted intolerant savage. This proven when he had an opponent to his doctrinal invention, Michael Servetus, burned at the stake for heresy using green wood in the year 1553. Green wood burns very slowly and causes the one tied to the pyre to suffer excruciatingly and for hours.

Jacob Arminius was a student of Calvinism, ecclesiastically one in the number of Calvinists in his day. Where he diverged was to publicly undercut supralapsarian double election.
“The scriptures know no election by which God precisely and absolutely has determined to save anyone without having first considered him as a believer.”Jacob Arminius (1560-1609) Counters Calvinism.

Keeping it light:

Keep to no man made doctrine I say. The only man for whom we should align our faith and life and the teachings thereof is Yeshua and his instruction as to how to receive eternal salvation that is first a gift of The Father.
Unfortunately, Calvinism and Arminianism has divided the church. As have all the other man-named doctrines out there. Even Paul in his day knew this was not right. That hasn't changed.
Stick with Christ. No creed but. He's the reason we're able to live eternally with our Creator. Man's doctrines fall short every time. And they divide a people who are suppose to be one in Christ. That's not how it is suppose to be.

1 Corinthians 1:10-15

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Hi AH
Welcome to CFnet. It's nice to have you here.

I agree with all you've said. Many times when persons post verses from Paul,
I like to go to the gospels to see what Jesus had to say.
Some tell me that was BEFORE He was resurrected !
I tell them maybe Jesus didn't know what He was talking about, or maybe He was confused as to His mission ...

Anyway, I agree with you 100%.

However, men have come and have divided the church. Scripture is not very precise and this has caused some problems because some today want everything to be easy...

I follow and trust Jesus...
But in theory I have to say that I agree more with Arminius.
Calvin was a mean person and not someone I could even respect.

Thanks for the addition to the conversation.

 

[GodsGrace]

Exactly....and the spiritually dead...can't choose Christ.

OK Cygnus.

Here's how it is.
This is a very serious conversation.
I'm not here to pass my time.

Please don't make one sentence remarks.
Reply to my posts, which require time I don't even have.
Do not reply by posting a different verse or scripture.
I reply to yours, please reply to mine.

One sentence answers get us nowhere.

 

[artful horizon]

Hi AH
Welcome to CFnet. It's nice to have you here.

I agree with all you've said. Many times when persons post verses from Paul,
I like to go to the gospels to see what Jesus had to say.
Some tell me that was BEFORE He was resurrected !
I tell them maybe Jesus didn't know what He was talking about, or maybe He was confused as to His mission ...

Anyway, I agree with you 100%.

However, men have come and have divided the church. Scripture is not very precise and this has caused some problems because some today want everything to be easy...

I follow and trust Jesus...
But in theory I have to say that I agree more with Arminius.
Calvin was a mean person and not someone I could even respect.

Thanks for the addition to the conversation.

Thank you for the welcome. And you are welcome also.
I am not in either camp. I agree with you though about Calvin. The TULIP forumla for me never made sense. Then I heard about his part in the persecution of those in the reformation and that's not someone who sounds like what the God of peace would choose to deliver as His word of love and life.

I stick with the New Testament and Jesus who delivered it. I think that's the best way to go. As you said,men and even women now, can divide the church.
I sometimes listen to the pastors on TV and some make me cringe. There's one woman pastor that is just , ugh!
Then there's the denominations that I think divide. Everyone has their own idea of the formula that should pertain to the New Testament. Making it more complicated than need be. Jesus took all the work on himself. All the suffering. In order to make us one eternal promise when he chose us even prior to being born. I'm a loyal type so I cleave to him and his word. Denomination stuff, like Calvinism, Arminianism, Protestantism generally, Catholicism, makes it seem like man is trying to work their way into God's doing. So it appears like a co-partnership in delivering the Gospel to the world.
That's kinda weird.

 

[GodsGrace]

Thank you for the welcome. And you are welcome also.
I am not in either camp. I agree with you though about Calvin. The TULIP forumla for me never made sense. Then I heard about his part in the persecution of those in the reformation and that's not someone who sounds like what the God of peace would choose to deliver as His word of love and life.

I stick with the New Testament and Jesus who delivered it. I think that's the best way to go. As you said,men and even women now, can divide the church.
I sometimes listen to the pastors on TV and some make me cringe. There's one woman pastor that is just , ugh!
Then there's the denominations that I think divide. Everyone has their own idea of the formula that should pertain to the New Testament. Making it more complicated than need be. Jesus took all the work on himself. All the suffering. In order to make us one eternal promise when he chose us even prior to being born. I'm a loyal type so I cleave to him and his word. Denomination stuff, like Calvinism, Arminianism, Protestantism generally, Catholicism, makes it seem like man is trying to work their way into God's diong. So it appears like a co-partnership in delivering the Gospel to the world.
That's kinda weird.

I agree. The problem is that we're here in this world and this is how things are.
Personally, and I say this in an open post, I trust what Jesus said about everything. Paul went into very theological matters that some cannot understand. Not even because they don't want to, or because they can't, but because they use Paul's words to back up what THEY want to believe.

OK. Anyway, I was away all day and an soooo far behind!
Good to have you here.

(I also knew about the green wood and was disgusted, as I am about the inquisition, witch burnings, etc etc. - man is truly lost)

 

[GodsGrace]

From.....Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
For God so loved the world,.... The Persic version reads "men": but not every man in the world is here meant, or all the individuals of human nature; for all are not the objects of God's special love, which is here designed, as appears from the instance and evidence of it, the gift of his Son: nor is Christ God's gift to every one; for to whomsoever he gives his Son, he gives all things freely with him; which is not the case of every man. Nor is human nature here intended, in opposition to, and distinction from, the angelic nature; for though God has showed a regard to fallen men, and not to fallen angels, and has provided a Saviour for the one, and not for the other; and Christ has assumed the nature of men, and not angels; yet not for the sake of all men, but the spiritual seed of Abraham; and besides, it will not be easily proved, that human nature is ever called the world: nor is the whole body of the chosen ones, as consisting of Jews and Gentiles, here designed; for though these are called the world, John 6:33; and are the objects of God's special love, and to them Christ is given, and they are brought to believe in him, and shall never perish, but shall be saved with an everlasting salvation; yet rather the Gentiles particularly, and God's elect among them, are meant; who are often called "the world", and "the whole world", and "the nations of the world", as distinct from the Jews; see Romans 11:12, compared with Matthew 6:32. The Jews had the same distinction we have now, the church and the world; the former they took to themselves, and the latter they gave to all the nations around: hence we often meet with this distinction, Israel, and the nations of the world; on those words,

We can all go to links.
Does this mean you don't understand what you believe?
Does this mean you learn from the internet?
Why can you not express yourself in your own words on such an important matter?

Could you explain how the whole world doesn't mean the whole world,
and how all men doesn't mean all men...in your own words please.

Did these inspired persons who wrote the bible not know what words meant??

 

[GodsGrace]

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.

You seem to be calling God unjust.

Yes.
God IS unjust if He doesn't give ME a chance to go to heaven with Him.
What would be ONE reason why God would allow me to be born only to destine me to hell?



God desires that ALL MEN, A L L M E N
be saved.
1 Timothy 2:4
1 Timothy 4:10