Nathan
Member
How can something that is eternal have a beginning? Can we just redefine words to fit something we believe?
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
-
Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
"Believe" in the present tense
- Thread starter FreeGrace
- Start date
Pegasus
Member
John 5:24 is quite a revelation. Puts to rest a lot of debate.
What are we dealing with here really? People who want to prove a hypothetical. You hear the "what ifs" yet when we exegete we should be using Biblical examples of people who were "saved" and threw it all away. In the NT, exhaustively we only have Judas. Yet one can debate if he truly believed in Messiah's mission and instead formed his own "idol" of Jesus and thought He would conform to it. Well we have plenty to work with there as just look at all the error out there today and it amounts to some wanting Jesus to conform to their beliefs.
But I digress...
You mentioned John 5:24. Hands down Jesus is telling us those who believe in Him...His way will not be judged. Right there in Big Bold Red Letters.
I will offer this as well:
John 11: New King James Version (NKJV)
17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days. 18 Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles away. 19 And many of the Jews had joined the women around Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.
20 Now Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house. 21 Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”
23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
27 She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
Papa Zoom
CF Ambassador
Seems pretty clear to me. Thanks for the input.
Pegasus
Member
Eternal is defined in terms only of something of God and from God. We can only obtain such in Christ.
How we pass from the temporal to the eternal is defined in Christ Jesus.
When we pass from one to the other is something we grapple with in created time. God created time, matter and space. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Time, space, matter. When Christ says we passed from death to life He meant eternal life. This meaning we will be with Him in eternity outside the created Time, space, matter.
Hope this is helpful to the discussion.
Frankly we need to stop thinking of our positional with regards to the creation which will pass but in the terms of Christ who is eternal. In Him is Who we have our hope.
Yes, believe is the condition for a person to be in Christ, whereby they are connected to the eternal life that is in Christ.
I have yet to see a scripture that says this condition for eternal life, is removed after a person is born again.
As long as a person believes, they have eternal life through faith in Christ Jesus.
That is why we are told to continue to believe and continue in the faith.
Knowing Him is eternal life.
The Spirit of life is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
When one reads and understands all the scriptures that pertain to this subject then it becomes clear that salvation and eternal life are what we have now, by faith in Jesus Christ, in which we will receive or obtain these in reality when He comes and we come forth in the resurrection of life; We we inherit the kingdom of God.
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:24-29
Just as true as verse 24 is verse 28.
all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—
- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and
- those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
Those Christians who have done good, will come forth in the resurrection of life.
Those Christians who have done evil, will come forth in the resurrection of condemnation.
In this life, those who have faith, have the hope of inheriting eternal life; of inheriting the kingdom of God.
JLB
markathome
Member
chessman
Member
Sure. we can all see why you don't believe. Take this passage I've just recently questioned you about for example. The Text says He gives His sheep eternal life now (presently), yet you changed that portion in your claims into future tense so that you can think certain sheep (never yourself of course) do not really have eternal life presently and will perish in the future even though the Text says His sheep shall never perish in the future and they have eternal life presently. Odd really and directly contradicts the Word.
Nope. Just as clearly and precisely as Jesus (who knows a thing or two about when He gives eternal life) said His sheep shall never perish (in their future), He said He gives His sheep eternal life presently. You changed the discussion (and facts) about never perishing (future) into not giving eternal life until future. Yet "gives" is present tense in the passage. [another question you just avoided to answer]
For another example of how I see why you do not believe, is how when Jesus said the good soil was "the one" example that understands the word about the Kingdom, you ignore that fact and literally claimed the the rock example understands the word about the kingdom too. Which is really, really odd since you point out that one of the Greek words translated "believe" also means "obey" (which is correct). Not only did the rock not understand the word about the kingdom, it didn't obey it.
This interpretation
Clearly contradicts Jesus' interpretation of the parable.And for a third example of the reason I see why you do not believe; When people are judged, they are separated into two groups; left/right, unbelievers/believers, goats/sheep, etc. You say there are hypothetical exbelievers in Christ (who once believed in Him yet stopped being in Him) and are judged just as a left-side, unbeliever, and goat. Yet John (and every other Biblical use of the word) says the unbelievers "has not believed":
John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.
It seems the verse itself is what isn't being believed.
Jesus was clear; those given eternal life will never perish. The notion that eternal life is given at the end of one's life, or end of the age is baseless. Jesus was also clear in John 5:24 that "he who believes HAS eternal life".
What isn't clear about this? Eternal life is given WHEN one believes. How can it mean anything else?
John 5:24 tells us WHEN one is given eternal life. John 10:28 tells us WHO gives eternal life.
So we KNOW that eternal life is given WHEN one first believes. And on THAT BASIS, recipients shall never perish.
Now you must see why eternal security is the truth.
Well, first, there are no verses about losing the Holy Spirit, which is the seal of our being IN HIM.
Second, Eph 1:14 tells us that the indwelling Holy Spirit is a GUARANTEE OF OUR INHERITANCE. There's your guarantee.
Third, this guarantee of our inheritance is for the day of redemption.
So now you must see why eternal security is the truth.
No. What verse says anyone "has access to eternal life"?? John 5:24 says "whoever believes HAS eternal life".
Yet, there are absolutely NO verses that say this. It's a baseless comment.
This says nothing about losing eternal life, or not having "access to eternal life".
It DOES teach what all farmers already know; branches that aren't productive are discarded the way farmers discard useless branches.
But God is not a farmer. He is our Heavenly Father, and He doesn't throw his children in a fire.
I guess you'll have to ask Jesus, who is the One who teaches that.
I just know what He teaches and am glad to share it with others.
Actually, people are physically born as people, not any kind of animal.
The Bible uses figures of speech and analogy when people are referred to a sheep. In John 10, Jesus said a number of times that He will "lay down" His life for THE sheep. That refers to the human race. He also noted there were HIS sheep, other sheep of HIS, and those NOT of HIS sheep. There are no goats in John 10.
Yes.
Please guide me to the text that makes this point.
"wolves to sheep"? Which text makes this point?
Nathan
Member
I would say 'eternal' is only defined in terms of something of God and with God(not from Him). I agree with your last statement and that is precisely why we cannot look at eternal life as something possessed by us, but rather Him who unites us to Himself.
People are looking at eternal life as something to be reached instead of Him living in us. We are united with the eternal God through faith in Christ. We do not become eternal, but we do receive His life in us that is eternal.
We have to be aware of the danger that comes with thinking man can be like God.
Col 3:1-4
If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
And Jesus said in John 5:24 that "whoever believes HAS eternal life", not "is connected to eternal life", as stated here.
Then, in John 10:28, Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish. There are no conditions between being given eternal life and never perishing.
This doesn't even make sense. When the condition is met, eternal life is possessed. There is nothing to be "removed".
Actually, what cannot be removed is the eternal life that is given by Jesus Himself. If it could, it cannot be called "eternal" life. It would be called "temporary" life, or something like that.
I don't suggest being disagreeable with what Jesus said in John 10:28. He said those He gives eternal life shall never perish.
What He clearly DID NOT SAY, is "I give them eternal life, and AS LONG AS they continue to believe, they shall never perish."
No it's not. We're commanded to in order to be blessed in this life and rewarded in the next.
What is clear from v.24 is that eternal life is POSSESSED when one first believes.
Please support this opinion with Scripture. John 5:24-29 sure doesn't support it. But since it appears you think so, please provide an explanation of WHERE in those verses this is taught.
We each can say anything we want to say, but what counts is what the Word says.
This directly contradicts what Jesus said in John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
Please read the red words carefully and re-assess your statement.
Nathan
Member
I do have eternal life. It is Christ in me. It is not anymore complicated than that. If you would not cut out the clear teaching(which was included in my post you quoted) you would see that "our" life is Christ - not a life that is something we possess. You have yet to show that life is something someone possesses, where Paul has clearly taught that our life is Christ.
Col 3:1-4
If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
Jhn 11:25
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,
Satan's lie is that we can be like God. It has not changed since the beginning.
And Jesus also said in the next verse's: those who have done good, to the resurrection of life
- 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29
Teaching us that those who have His Life within and do good, will come forth in the resurrection of life, while those who have His life within and do evil will come forth in the resurrection of condemnation.
If you haven't figured it out by now, I will tell you, His Spirit is eternal life.
- Those who have the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus and do not walk according to the flesh, have no concerns about condemnation.
- Those who have the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, and walk according to the flesh, can expect to come forth in the resurrection of condemnation.
- There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:1-2
We have been set free from sin having dominion over us, to obey it's lustful desires, by the Spirit of eternal Life in Christ Jesus.
11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:11-16
- Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
However the choice is ours, of whom we will obey:
We will either obey His Spirit of eternal life within us, to walk according to the righteous desires of His Spirit.
or
We will obey the unrighteous desires of the flesh.
God will render to each one of us according to the deeds done by us in our body, whether we put to death the deeds of the flesh and obeyed His eternal Spirit, or we sought to gratify the unrighteous deeds of the flesh.
God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8
God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
- eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality
- but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath
Jesus:
- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life
- those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation
Paul:
- eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
- but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath
The choice is yours to make.
JLB
Last edited:
What we have presently is The Spirit of [eternal] Life in Christ Jesus presently.
Those who have His Spirit of Life and walk according to the flesh will come forth in the resurrection of condemnation.
Not amount of rearranging His words will change this.
- 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29
Teaching us that those who have His Life within and do good, will come forth in the resurrection of life, while those who have His life within and do evil will come forth in the resurrection of condemnation.
If you haven't figured it out by now, I will tell you, His Spirit is eternal life.
- Those who have the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus and do not walk according to the flesh, have no concerns about condemnation.
- Those who have the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, and walk according to the flesh, can expect to come forth in the resurrection of condemnation.
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:1-2
God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8
God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
- eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality
- but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath
Jesus:
- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life
- those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation
Paul:
- eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
- but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath
The choice to walk according to the flesh or the choice to walk according to the Spirit of [eternal] Life in Christ Jesus is ours to make, for each one of us will give an account before Him on that Day.
JLB
Good Post!
Are we connecting these with this?
I'm connecting, but can't speak for all.
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 2 Corinthians 5:10
- We will all give an account of our life lived in this body to the Righteous Judge.
God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
- eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality
- but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath
Jesus:
- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life
- those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation
Paul:
- eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
- but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath
JLB
markathome
Member
John 5:24 Jesus talking about Events that will happen in the Future
Very truly I tell you,
whoever Hears My Word (The Words that Jesus Teaches, John 5:25 John 5:28)
& believes Him who sent me (Believes God who sent Jesus, John 6:29 John 12:44)
has eternal life (John 5:26 two conditions above has to be met before your name
but has crossed over from death to life. (1 John 3:14-16 Ephesians 2:1-10 Personal Tense)
Very truly I tell you,
whoever Hears My Word (The Words that Jesus Teaches, John 5:25 John 5:28)
& believes Him who sent me (Believes God who sent Jesus, John 6:29 John 12:44)
has eternal life (John 5:26 two conditions above has to be met before your name
- is written into the Book Life? John 5:27
- was already written in the Book Life? Ephesians 1:4-6
but has crossed over from death to life. (1 John 3:14-16 Ephesians 2:1-10 Personal Tense)
chessman
Member
Now that's funny.
Where does His words say "while those who have His life within and do evil will come forth in the resurrection of condemnation"???
No need to answer as His words do not say that. You rearranged words (some here, some there) to say it.
You realize that "all who are in the grave" (the unsaved (never saved) and the saved) will come forth, right?